the philosophy of miracles.....

Considering there are quite a few ats members that claim Advanced spirituality based realizations and experiences such as Oneness w the all, kundalini awakening, union with God, and Enlightenment amongst many others, what is your take on being able to perform a miracle to prove that what you claim is true.

For example Jesus taught various teachings and backed them up with miracles. When Buddha taught, he also backed up his teachings with various miracles as well.

So today we have a variety of spiritual teachers at our disposal and yet none of them that i know of, can perform any miracles or have any abilities that one would think would come with Spiritual Enlightenment.

Obviously if your an atheist/agnostic then please dont respond as this is not directed towards you.

So whats your take?

reply to post by dominicus


I am convinced that there were "messiah schools". The miracles are always applied knowledge. That knowledge IMO was used from time to time in our history to effect change by exploiting latent abilities in our physiology.

Apart from an organized art of god creating, I can see individuals being promoted to messianic status and certain traits be tacked on to his name for good measure. Creating a god is the same as commanding his followers like a god would.

The process though had to have been initiated by someone somewhere. If a charlatan exists it is because he has an honest mans story to exploit.

We are like baby monkeys that grow old but never grow up. We could still transform into something else, naturally.

What was will be again.
Just in its own way.

reply to post by dominicus

I would say, perhaps rather conveniently, that - "how dare you ask for a sign! Only a wicked and evil generation asks for a sign!"

That said - go to your family of origin, in particular to your mother and reconcile and forgive all, and then watch and wait, it won't take long..

reply to post by dominicus

My view: What is possible is based upon the *true* beliefs of the people observing. Not their professed beliefs (though those can affect other people's true beliefs). As our expectations and "desire" strengthen, the possibility/probability of the "miracle" increases.

This creates a fascinating conundrum that is actually a genius way of creating a filter for consciousness to never be subjected to more than it can truly handle, while making it completely plausible to deny the existence of everything outside of what said consciousness can handle.

So if we all suddenly *truly* believed we could fly via our own independent power... not just wished but "knew" it was possible... it would become possible.

The multiple people observing an event sort of cast a "vote"... a room full of skeptics is virtually guaranteed to never observe anything outside of their existing belief systems and will have every seemingly rational reason for asserting it. However it used to be irrational to claim that rocks fell from space, that man could fly, that there was more than our galaxy, that there even *was* a galaxy, etc.

This is why secrecy is so important for groups practicing "magic". Especially secrecy from non-believers, as they disrupt the "votes" of everyone trying to observe a certain outcome.

A room full of wishful believers are in an interesting position, in that they are only voting for what they wish or think were possible, but deep down don't actually believe it. This is where the transition can be made, but it is also an arena of significant self deception disguised as true belief.

A room full of people who *know* something is possible, but not how to accomplish it... will find themselves drawing things into their observation more, thus becoming more open to learning how it is possible (it was always possible to fly, it took people who *knew* it could be done but weren't sure how yet to discover it). The information was always out there, it was waiting for a consciousness that was "receptive" and could translate it into actionable understanding.

A room full of people who know something is possible and how to accomplish it... that's the general state of being we find ourselves in... or at least most of us truly believe we're in. Thus it's the sort of reality we're surrounded by... of only listening to the votes of a small minority on what is possible, and relegating our beliefs/desires to childish wishes and lock them away.

The best discoveries come from people who haven't forgotten how fun it is to explore beliefs and possibilities like a child (not childish immaturity... childish enthusiasm).

The universe has a time lag from change of heart to reflection in front of you. This is part of the game/drama/ability to sense change that makes existence and experience even possible. If everything happened the same moment it was conceived, nothing would be perceived to be happening.

Namaste!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I'm not posting this thread to see any or ask for any signs. There are plenty of books and accounts of saints who reached such a high or deep level spiritually, that they would levitate or bilocate or many other instances.

We just dont see this kind of stuff anymore. Yet there is an abundance of various Spiritual teachers and none of them have any abilities that can confirm their state.

Its a discussion, not an asking on my part

reply to post by dominicus


It really all depends on what you would call a miracle?

My life took a turn for the better over the last year or so.

I have ended up doing hypnosis shows and I absolutely love doing so, it happened from within, I was never taught by anyone else, it just felt right and apart from my wife, mostly everyone thought I was off my head when I said I was going to do hypnosis for a career.
There are still people who believe that it is absolute nonsense or purely evil (hypnosis) and its also worth noting that my local church thinks I am the devil and I have even been called the devil in public by a member of the local church too!

Here's the proof to back up my claims although I would not call it a miracle as such. I would say that making people laugh is my own mark on the world that I can leave for now and if anything I would tell others to be true to themselves and forget what anyone else says you cannot achieve as i just have...



(footage from a kind audience member at my first comedy show)

I have also been helping sick people (in private) with pain and other things successfully. I would never put any of this on video as I would probably be a victim of a witch hunt from some section of humanity that believes in something that harms another.

But I am certainly learning that there is a lot of falseness floating around these days and being true to your inner gut feeling is a miracle itself in these times when everyone wants to hammer you into doing nothing with your life if that makes sense.

When all is said and done, no matter what tyrant is taking your liberty or taking something else from you. You can still be what you want to be and do what you want to do if you want it hard enough and for any pessimist who says what about others who are unfortunate then that is great because if you work hard enough you will find yourself in a position to help them which is exactly what I am doing and will continue to do.

There has never been a miracle.

A miracle often denotes an event attributed to divine intervention. Alternatively, it may be an event attributed to a miracle worker, saint, or religious leader. A miracle is sometimes thought of as a perceptible interruption of the laws of nature. Others suggest that God may work with the laws of nature to perform what people perceive as miracles

en.wikipedia.org...

The Miracles of Jesus were metaphoric, and transpired in accordance with laws of nature.

Philosophy is the study of reality, knowledge, and values, based on logical reasoning rather than observation.[1] This includes general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, mind, and language.[2][3] The word "philosophy" comes from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom"

en.wikipedia.org...

Keywords:
Reality, Knowledge, Values, Logical Reasoning, Existence, Mind, Language, Love of Wisdom

The universe is logistics, which then allows one to remove observation and replace it with logical reasoning. That is, when said logical reasoning is based on logistics.

Logistics is the management of the flow of resources, not only goods, between the point of origin and the point of destination in order to meet the requirements of customers or corporations. Logistics involves the integration of information, transportation, inventory, warehousing, material handling, and packaging, and often security.

en.wikipedia.org...

Keywords:

Flow of Resources, Point of Origin - Point of Destination, Transportation, Inventory

The perception of reality and existence is a construct of the mind, and due to bias', the removal of observation is warranted. All that is real, matter and such are constructed from one resource, energy. Our languages dictate means of expressing our perception and fails us in our attempts of gathering and addressing the information that is the expression of the universe.

It's all subjective really, and any truths that may be derived from such inquiry surely first requires defining exactly what or who 'God' is, and especially what defining characteristics are to applied to the notion of a 'miracle' in the first place. Define those, then an answer may be found... until then, just a bunch of nonsense rhetoric that is only conducive towards more confusion and strengthening of divisions that are based in ignorance.

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

There has never been a miracle.

Said like a true optimist.

I cannot wait to you change your tune later in life.

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

The Miracles of Jesus were metaphoric, and transpired in accordance with laws of nature.

U sure about that? You literally have about a billion others, if not more, that would disagree, myself including.

Keywords: Reality, Knowledge, Values, Logical Reasoning, Existence, Mind, Language, Love of Wisdom

Spiritual powers, and/or miracles very much fall in line with the above keywords. I dont agree with the worlds version of reality being what the majority says it is. I know experientially that there is a form of knowledge that transcends that which the majority is used to. Values are realtive, next. Logic is limited, and i used logic to conclude that, as is reason. Existence, i have remembered myself to have pre-existed prior to human life here, so i know the spiritual world exists. Mind is something my awareness observes, hence mind is not me. Language is labels and semantics, so i could care less. All of this is compatible with this thread.

It's all subjective really, and any truths that may be derived from such inquiry surely first requires defining exactly what or who 'God' is

What does definition help with? The definition of something is not the same as the actual something. You even say so similarly in your post. If there is no God to you, then skip this thread.

Define those, then an answer may be found... until then, just a bunch of nonsense rhetoric that is only conducive towards more confusion and strengthening of divisions that are based in ignorance.

You do realize the same can be applied to you and everything you say, think, know, or believe in right? Seems this thread is not for you. On the other hand, i have tasted of states and realities that would literally destroy a skeptic and have met many others who have seen behind the veil of reality, which is who this thread is directed at

Originally posted by XXXN3O
reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

 

There has never been a miracle.

Said like a true optimist.

I cannot wait to you change your tune later in life.

Said like a true subservient of false interpretation served on a silver platter by the self appointed righteous.

I can wait until you never change your tune, and forever wonder why you never witnessed a miracle during your life.

Jesus is my homie, and religion is phony... the applied interpretations are of tactical deception which is at the core of human communication and/or interaction, thank you cognitive evolution. It's also through evolution, that these deceptions come to light and revelations transpire.

Jesus, John and Matthew are the ultimate behavioral psychology, applied sciences, and cognition professors of all time.

Yall can memorize the lines, and I'll read in between. 'Gander propaganda, yeah the planet's got a lot of spin'.

"Fool be Duke Nukem, the writing is on the wall again
Stall them man, get up off the ground just to fall again
All events planned, after all, Ash is all I am
Hard to plant in sand, pass it on, telling all your friends
We can be the tallest if we wanted, but it all depends on us"

~Never go into the town... Nor tell anyone in town~
One can cure your blindness, just as you can undo such a miracle.

The curse on Bethsaida transcends boarders and time, the parables aren't dependent on the variable of context... it's the context in which they are presented that is dependent on interpretation, as to defining its relation with set normative principals.

Ahhh the rhetoric of promoting ethical discourse sure wades in some muddy waters, but there sure are some amazingly beautiful lotus flowers that emerge. Entertaining, but the Pool of Siloam is where I'd rather skinny dip.

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS


Knowledge speaks, wisdom listens.

I hear you.

reply to post by dominicus

U sure about that? You literally have about a billion others, if not more, that would disagree, myself including.

'Hey Jesus! One billion friends and I are going to go jump off a bridge. You should totally should come for we all BELIEVE we will survive'

Mind is something my awareness observes, hence mind is not me. Language is labels and semantics, so i could care less. All of this is compatible with this thread.

yup

What does definition help with? The definition of something is not the same as the actual something. You even say so similarly in your post. If there is no God to you, then skip this thread.

I agree, the definition of something is not the same as the actual something. Regardless, if there is to be a conversation or debate using subjective terms, would it not require establishing the defining characteristics of such? As to placing any stance into position. Is it not impossible to have theory of relativity with out a frame of reference? I can't accurately even pretend to know what another person is implying by just simply hearing them say... 'I believe in communism' when there's seemingly an endless amount of interpretations of the term.
Wow I beat that horse way too much, this truly shouldn't be hard to understand.

As to 'God', I do suggest that there is indeed a 'God'... as to my definition, another time.

You do realize the same can be applied to you and everything you say, think, know, or believe in right? Seems this thread is not for you. On the other hand, i have tasted of states and realities that would literally destroy a skeptic and have met many others who have seen behind the veil of reality, which is who this thread is directed at

Spanos' research leads him to the conclusion that past lives are not memories, but actually social constructions based on patients acting "as if" they were someone else, but with significant flaws that would not be expected of actual memories. To create these memories, Spanos' subjects drew upon the expectations established by authority figures and information outside of the experiment such as television, novels, life experiences and their own desires.

en.wikipedia.org...

I wish I cared to break this down for you, but it is not my aim in contributing to this thread. Rather, a thread of my own will surely bring justice to false interpretations of perceptions. All of which will SMASH skeptics who talked themselves into a skinny corner.

Not for me...
You do know where you're at right? I follow the rules, deny ignorance, and learn... , it's for me.

as well... this thread is under philosophy and metaphysics, something of which I write about and OWN(partially, with another) a website dedicated to.this very subject... , it's for me.

It's not of your control as to the regulation of which individuals should or shouldn't contribute to a thread that you have started. Are my opinions not in accordance with displays of ignorance, oops. I will pay for that one, oh wait, I have already paid(still paying) to assure this. Regardless of semantics in assessing merit, and defining positions and roles of ATS members(we can put that veil of reality on a shelf for now). I disagree with much of what you have said, observe faulty reasoning, and choose to deny ignorance.

I forget that suppression of dissent is forever present in the guise of folly, which is the majority of threads on ATS.

I as well have enjoyed the flavors of different states of realities... it has changed me, my perception, and the way I see others. so yeah.... I'm confused by your comment.

Here's 2 threads of mine that you might enjoy...

The Truth Behind Numbers: Philosophy, Geometry, and Religion?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I Need Some Answers, Sun, NMR, Gene Expression, Light, Behavioural Psychology, Circadian Rhythm, Etc
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Why I chose those to share with you, will be apparent if you choose to read them...

Originally posted by dominicus
Considering there are quite a few ats members that claim Advanced spirituality based realizations and experiences such as Oneness w the all, kundalini awakening, union with God, and Enlightenment amongst many others, what is your take on being able to perform a miracle to prove that what you claim is true.

For example Jesus taught various teachings and backed them up with miracles. When Buddha taught, he also backed up his teachings with various miracles as well.

So today we have a variety of spiritual teachers at our disposal and yet none of them that i know of, can perform any miracles or have any abilities that one would think would come with Spiritual Enlightenment.

Obviously if your an atheist/agnostic then please dont respond as this is not directed towards you.

So whats your take?

"Blessed are those who believe yet have not seen."

and yet you would have yourself be robbed of your Blessing? You seek parlor tricks? How about Prayer for the Lord to bring evil to its knees?

You see how misunderstood Prayer can be I hope, they don't always get answered the way one would hope... what exactly should one of Faith manifest his Faith in then? (Faith without works is dead)... would you really want to go that route... who in this world is so evil they should die?... plz, by all means enlighten us...... perhaps a Prayer for the Lord to shut down websites that mock Him? Or to crash the computers of the mockers?

But then you wouldn't know what happened and only the Faithful one who Prayed for it would know for sure.

Pray for guidance... you just might be surprised ... if you are worthy in your heart

Put another way why would one who knows the strength of the Lords will be compelled to demonstrate it to one who doesn't? God reveals Himself to those who seek. "Seek and ye shall find". You show your doubt and in voicing it merely prove to yourself/others, and God Himself that you are of the lost and floundering.

Want to mock Faith, bring it... a God slap is forthcoming already... you only hurt yourself. But then when you have seen Faith in experience you can Pray for your own healing...

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS


yup, wiki is the authoritative word cuz hey, somebody says so. Shame that anyone can edit it though isn't it?

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

Hey Jesus! One billion friends and I are going to go jump off a bridge. You should totally should come for we all BELIEVE we will survive'

This thread is not about "beliefs" in Jesus. I have experienced realms and states in which I know miracles are possible. I know others who have as well. I am also a Christian Mystic Nondualist. Through Christianity I have experienced the Holy Spirit which has shown me that miracles are possible.

We dont just find miracles/powers in Christianity. They are all over the place. I dont know what "belief" has to do with all of this.

The gist of this thread is this. Jesus was obviously a Spiritual Master/teacher (some say much more) and thousands witnessed miracles and spiritual powers attributed to him. Same goes for Buddha. Same goes for hundreds, if not thousands of Saints across antiquity, cultures, religions, etc.

We have a vast array of modern day teachers who also claim all types of things, yet they have no miracles/powers attributed to them. Why is that? Are they all false or not accomplished in the path?
______________________________________________________________________
In Reply to Noncoholic:

You see how misunderstood Prayer can be I hope, they don't always get answered the way one would hope... what exactly should one of Faith manifest his Faith in then? (Faith without works is dead)... would you really want to go that route... who in this world is so evil they should die?... plz, by all means enlighten us...... perhaps a Prayer for the Lord to shut down websites that mock Him? Or to crash the computers of the mockers?

I think you speak from a a very "milk" based Christianity (milk vs meat). The meat being getting the Holy Spirit and seeing things from a transcendent Spiritual perspective of Love and Infinity. In a meat based walk, One lives beyond faith and has complete and utter reliance on God.

Im not looking for miracles or powers. Just implying that if someone is spiritually mature/advanced in any religion, then miracles/powers would ultimately be a significant by-product. Jesus didn't have to tout powers/miracles. It was just a natural thing to do from his state, as it has been for various Saints of the past.

Put another way why would one who knows the strength of the Lords will be compelled to demonstrate it to one who doesn't? God reveals Himself to those who seek. "Seek and ye shall find". You show your doubt and in voicing it merely prove to yourself/others, and God Himself that you are of the lost and floundering.

See my reply above. There's no doubt or loss here.

Want to mock Faith, bring it... a God slap is forthcoming already... you only hurt yourself. But then when you have seen Faith in experience you can Pray for your own healing...

I've been slapped over a decade ago. I am beyond Faith. Faith is for the new comers on the Path. Beyond Faith is 100% complete reliance and there is no other choice. When you have experienced the realities of God, then you are no longer in Faith mode, but in knowing and direct reliance mode.

reply to post by dominicus


perhaps you misunderstand me. Also, calling my Faith as milk is definitely underestimating me.

I do not Pray often as I know the Lord provides and knows what I am needing. I do Pray for others though...

You see, the problem with Prayer (as I stated) is you never know just how it will be answered. If the entire world Prayed for world peace there would be world war because there will never be total peace in a militarized society.

Now the way you see my strength of Faith and unity with God seems to strike me as bland in nature for you judge by your understanding, not by the insight that God would grant you if you truly were at "one" with Him.

Perhaps my intent was lost in your perception in what I was trying to convey and perhaps I wasn't lucid enough in making my point but regardless, I am far from milk and am not toast.

Perhaps your comment is jaded by the truth of what I said but you didn't fully understand its depth of meaning?

To give you an idea of where i'm coming from, I am a mathematical physicist, and a Christian. And my opinion about miracles was nicely surmised by a scientist on an older PBS program, A miracle is nothing more than a natural law not discovered.

I believe the nature of miracles has to do with the application of gnosis, and in this instant, Arthur C. Clarke's third law ["Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"] applies, where 'technology' is the consequence of knowledge.

My personal experience lead me to the conclusion that this is what Jesus was referring to in John 14:12. This same 'knowledge' was also granted to the Apostles in Luke 9:1, is also the same knowledge used by the Pharaoh's 'wise men' and 'sorcerers' in Exodus 7, and the 'someones' John was referring to in Mark 9:38-40.

Simply put, my opinion is that 'miracles' are natural, just like the concept of infinity in mathematical logic; difficult to understand, but ontological nonetheless. I would extend this to all genuine claims of miracles, like Buddha.

Originally posted by anoncoholic
reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

 

yup, wiki is the authoritative word cuz hey, somebody says so. Shame that anyone can edit it though isn't it?

Authoritative HAHAHAHA.... did I imply that?

would you maybe agree with...

Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

how about...

Morris Netherton

maybe a couple book references are necessary?
...
how about a 14 page list of individuals and articles from scientific journals that all address this very idea....
addressing wiki use for past life regression.


I apologize for being lazy, and truly not caring if someone believed me or not, and just went straight to wiki...

the wiki reference for miracle didn't give any definitive definition...

the wiki reference for defining Philosophy is spot on...
If you disagree, I would love to hear it,

the wiki reference for defining logistics...
If you disagree, I don't care to hear it...
Even though it might be entertaining.

And have fun with all those Wiki edits, especially the ones that are protected from being edited... which can still be done, but then requires a review.

I'm not sure if you're aware... but those that edit wiki do include sources... and if not... it tells you that too.

I wouldn't dare use wiki for writing a paper or contributing to my own pursuits that are of value, but it's not like wiki's information is always wrong or straight bias' all the time.

Originally posted by imherejusttoread
To give you an idea of where i'm coming from, I am a mathematical physicist, and a Christian. And my opinion about miracles was nicely surmised by a scientist on an older PBS program, A miracle is nothing more than a natural law not discovered.

I believe the nature of miracles has to do with the application of gnosis, and in this instant, Arthur C. Clarke's third law ["Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"] applies, where 'technology' is the consequence of knowledge.

My personal experience lead me to the conclusion that this is what Jesus was referring to in John 14:12. This same 'knowledge' was also granted to the Apostles in Luke 9:1, is also the same knowledge used by the Pharaoh's 'wise men' and 'sorcerers' in Exodus 7, and the 'someones' John was referring to in Mark 9:38-40.

Simply put, my opinion is that 'miracles' are natural, just like the concept of infinity in mathematical logic; difficult to understand, but ontological nonetheless. I would extend this to all genuine claims of miracles, like Buddha.

edit on 19-5-2012 by imherejusttoread because: syntax.

I recant everything I said in my first reply to this thread, then copy everything you said... and paste it into a new reply. LOL

Everything I was trying to say, thank you.

So... A male mathematical physicist with architecture as a hobby and a female clinical psychologist that loves mysticism walk into a bar. 9 months later baby Jesus poops for the first time.

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS


I will be totally honest too. I didn't click any links. I also don't need to visit opinion pieces I get my info from the source and it is through my trust in the word that grants me powers of discernment which for the most part don't fail me. I am only let down when I put my Faith in man... any man. Yet here you would rather I deny God whom inspires and instead imply I should trust man and his teachings instead... sorry, not gonna happen.

Let me put it this way... being at one is a universal consciousness with a connect to all. Past life regression could be tapping into that stream of energy which validates it was a person just not THAT person who sees the life.

Let me expound on that a little better... perhaps the science fields will have the explanation which is doubtful and they themselves readily admit to being without enough info to make that call...

where does a thought come from?
Where does a thought go to?
What then is inspiration?

Maybe the psychologists can fathom the answers by reading more books by other psychologists...