Jesus and his message........

Now a lot of you won�t listen to anyone unless they have some verses to back up their claim. Well he we go.. I still Love the man with all my heart and his message I�m just in search of the truth�.

Mathew 4:5-7

Then the devil took him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, sand said to Him, �If you are the Son of God, throw your self down For it is written:

�He shall give his angles charge over you� and, �In their hands they shall bear you up Lest you dash your foot against a stone.�

Jesus said to him, �It is written again, �You shall not tempt the Lord your God�

Mathew 4:10

Then Jesus said to him, �Away with you, Satan! For it is written, �You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.�

We read the devil carried the Messiah, and took him from place to place. How can the devil carry God? Then the Devil orders him to worship him and tempting him with worldly possessions. How can the Devil even begin to think that he can persuade GOD?!?!

Mark 2:10

But that you may know that the Son of Man has the power on earth to forgive sin

Matthew 5:45

That you may be sons of your father in Heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and sends rain on the unjust.

Mathew 5:9

Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God

If you have good in your heart then you are children of God, plain and simple

And when he had sent the multitudes away, He went up on the mountain by himself to pray�.

If Jesus is God or a part of God then why did he pray? In fact prayer is always a form of submitting one�s self to a higher power.

Mathew 23:9-10
Do not call anyone on earth your father; for one is your father, he who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for one is your teacher, the Christ.

He is saying right here that you should worship the Father not him

Matthew 26:39

He went a little father and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, �oh my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will�

He said this before his crucifixion. Sounds like he pleading for his life like any other man facing death would do.

Now if you all have noticed that a lot of these verses have come from Matthew. Were these first hand accounts written by this man or events that were retained in memory?

Mathew 27:7-8

And they consulted them together and bought with them the potter�s field, to bury strangers in. Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day

To this day, not yesterday not a week ago but to this day. It could be possible that the New testament was not written in Jesus life time but long after?!?!

Ok now this is the last time that I will speak on this. This isn�t something that I have pulled off a website but have read for myself *cough* Helen*cough* I will take replies but other than that I�m tired of talking about this to you all it�s like talking to a brick wall.


[Edited on 25-4-2003 by abstract_alao]

A lot of the questions you are asking or any muslim for that matter can be answered by understanding the concept of Jesus. It seems a lot of muslims are always hung up on coming to know the EXACT truth about Christ because of those same questions you are asking among others.

I will attempt to explain in short knowing full well you will discredit what I say or won't believe it.. Why do I do it? Because its my only reaction.

You see part of the concept of Jesus is being a sort of role model for humanity. He personifies how we should act and treat each other perfectly among other things. So one thing he modeled for us humans is how to pray to God and the very act of prayer itself. There is a good reason why he really never DIRECTLY alluded to him being God ex: He never said I am God or this is how you should pray to me etc. or whatever. Whats the reason? Im not entirely sure.. but it does make one think (though it doesnt make me question his diety role anymore). Perhaps its like this... ever seen Lord of the Rings... the first one? Remember the character Strider? When all the charcheters in defense of good gathered around and talked about who the team was who was going to throw the ring into the fire... a dispute arose between one character (cant remember the name... he was however a king) and strider. Most people there knew the blood lineage of strider.. how he was destined to be the next king to lead a multitude of people and was a very powerful person etc. Anyways a certain character didnt know about that and questioned his credibility and power. Strider said nothing... remaining humble and secure. He could have said "Do you know who I am... Do you know who you are talking to" and come right out and told him the truth about himself. He said nothing for a reason. I think it actually added depth to his character or sincerity... real leaders and kings should be humble and not pompous. You see what I mean here? Most people who come along and want people to follow them for whatever reason and fail have been known to be arrogant, pompous, abusing their power etc. etc. Thats a big reason why they fail... real leaders do not embody those characteristics. Real leaders are humble and are servants. Real leaders show through actions and their life. I think Jesus went about these questions directed toward him like a true leader. He really never gave one the cliche answer. He sprinkled it with power, serventhood, humbleness ... like a true diety. Next time around though.. he will come as a warrior ...for the first time he came as a lamb not like people were expecting. You see you expect him to tell everyone straught up who he is... but Jesus knows better. You think God in human form is going to give a cliche answer... an expected answer to such a profound question? Maybe I confused you... but alas I tried to help.

Very plainly Jesus is God as man sent down to show his love and while he was here he acted as how a human should act/obey. He is the ultimate example. He prayed to God as we should follow his example also. He referenced verses to show that it was not God's will to give into temptation. That also showed that he knew the Word fluently as we should too. He also lived a humble life as we should too.

can any christian on here confirm if im close to the answer or if im way off?
i would like to know what a christian thinks about my response also.

i agree with you on the role model thing but he also knew that no one was perfect.But what about the whole dieing for our sins thing

Originally posted by f16falcon
i agree with you on the role model thing but he also knew that no one was perfect.But what about the whole dieing for our sins thing

okay. what about the dieing for our sins thing? what are you saying?

i also thought that jesus came to die for our sins or so thats what they tell us can some1 explain that

A lot of the questions you are asking or any muslim for that matter can be answered by understanding the concept of Jesus. It seems a lot of muslims are always hung up on coming to know the EXACT truth about Christ because of those same questions you are asking among others.

krossfyter first of all i'm not Muslim in the since that you see it. Nor am I Christian even though i went to catholic schools until 8th grade. At this point in my life i'm just in search of knowledge. I see truth as universal, i think that it spans all religions.

I feel that in a way i am Muslim because I believe in one God and all of his messengers, however Islam is a very strict religion and I don't pray 10 times a Day even though I talk to God on a regular basis.

In a way I feel that I am Christian because I loved what Jesus stood for. I wish that I would of lived back then just to have a conversation with this man. Not so he can answer my questions but just to be in his presence and talk to him would of been enough for me.

Right now these are really the only religions that i have studied. I Guy at school gave me a quran as a gift and I started reading it along with the bible which encompasses the torah and the gospel.

I see that these religion have a similar message of love and compassion. However just like anything that man get's his hands on it has become corrupt. We have fought wars over this and many people have died in the "name of God".(i.e the crusades and 9/11 I can't even see how thoses idiots justified that) It just really saddens me and that's why I feel that I'm more spiritual than religious.

krossfyter I know that sometimes I come across very judging of others but I�m not really, I�m just trying to let your all see things through my eyes. After reading your reply I have gain mad respect for you man. I see that your belief in Jesus has gotten you this far and that your faith is strong. I have seen your belief through your eyes and see that it in non-judging so I will leave it at that.

I�m just wondering if you see where I�m coming from? I guess the Catholics fu*ked it up for me growing up. But I do respect those who don�t try to say my religion is right and yours is wrong. You seem like that type of person so I feel you man.


[Edited on 21-4-2003 by abstract_alao]

Originally posted by Endisnear
Very plainly Jesus is God as man sent down to show his love and while he was here he acted as how a human should act/obey. He is the ultimate example. He prayed to God as we should follow his example also. He referenced verses to show that it was not God's will to give into temptation. That also showed that he knew the Word fluently as we should too. He also lived a humble life as we should too.

That is bacially what I believe minus the Jesus is God part

Originally posted by f16falcon
i also thought that jesus came to die for our sins or so thats what they tell us can some1 explain that

Jesus died because he was seen as a threat by those in power. This man was a religious leader, a politician and a revolutionary all rolled up into one. Does any one remember the story about his overturning the tables of the money exchangers at Passover?

He caused quite an uproar. The high priest at the time had to do something because he was catching hell from the Romans (who were occupying Jerusalem at the time). They had seen many so-called messiahs come and go. The people get all worked up and try to revolt against the Romans. Next thing you know fighting and bloodshed. Remind you of anything?!?!?! Look at what is going on there now. Occupation is now by the hands of the Jewish people not the Romans. Anyway sorry to get off the subject.

Now they could have just whacked Jesus in a dark alley but that wouldn�t of made as big of an impact as crucifying him. By crucifying him they wanted to make an example of him to other Jews( basically you don�t want to end up like him so don�t get out of line). Who would of knew that the opposite would of happened. Now instead of the cross being a sign of fear and roman oppression it is now a sign of hope and salvation. Kind of funny how things work out huh?!?

Islam is not a strict religion. And they worship 5 times a day, not 10 times. It's just 5 minutes a prayer for 5 times, that's 25 minutes out of your day.

When I was a Catholic I always saw my self doing bad things all the time. There's no discipline in the Christian religion you see? I was a Saturday sinner Sunday morning at Church. Once I read upon Islam, I suddenly saw myself stop doing all the bad things while a Catholic ie: I gave up the pork.

Abstract, you remind me of me a lot. I also believe the truth is found in every religion. I believe in One God and all his prophets and a universal truth. Just seek within yourself and you'll find the answer.

And it seems to me Jesus was a Muslim... "he fell on his face and prayed..."

Early church '''Holy Catholic(universal..not Roman) and Apostolic Church'''Prayer is significant in our daily lives......for we Worship the One God in The Father Son and Holy Spirit......One God............Three natures......

''''the incarnation of the Son came about through the good pleasure of the Father and the synergy(action of two or more sustances) of the Holy spirit...For in no other way did the Father and the Holy Spirit participate in the incarnation of the Son save in that the Father so willed and the Holy Spirit cooperated in the divine signs[of the Incarnation]
'''''''only the Son took on human flesh though it was 'through' the energy of the entire Trinity, as an action outside the divine essence.
The Father cooperated in the incarnation, for the Son says to the Father in a psalm,You shall prepare for myself a body; so did the Son, for He emptied Himself, taking on the form of a servant; and so did the Holy Spirit: [Luke 1 , 35 ]
But the incarnation took place only in the hypostasis of the Son and only He and not the Father nor the Holy Spirit became man....'''''''

Did the Lord then, the SON OF GOD, HAVE TO BECOME THE SAVIOUR OF SINFUL MAN???
Yes, He did, for neither an angel nor an archangel, but He alone, the Son of God, had to save man from the darkness of error and impiety.
He had to lead man to all Truth and to the light of the true knowledge of God....
But why the SON OF GOD ALONE???
Because the Son, just like the Father,is '''the only wise God'''', '''''in whom are hid all treasures of wisdom and knowledge'''[Col. 2 , 3] Consequently,it is He who leads man to all divine and saving knowledge and wisdom...
And because it was He, the Son, Who in the beginning fashioned and created man,it was only fitting that He, the Son should refashion and recreate fallen man.......
And just as H e in the beggining had '''created man from the earth'''' and placed him in Paradise so that the prophet could rightly proclaim,''''thy hands have made me and fashioned me''''',so it is likewise with man's refashioning. '''' ''''''our God and Saviour's economy towards man is His recalling us from the fall and His returning us to frienship with God and from the estrangementwhich had been wrought by disobedience'''''(Garden of Adam and Eve......the Serpant(Devil) deceiving Eve........)
'''He became the Son of Adam by economy and for our sake'''', and the Father thus became by economy His God''''

'''Therefore, the Son and Word of God the Father became Saviour and Redeemer of fallen man through His incarnation....

Thus, '''''''the Word became flesh and dwelt among us '''[John 1 , 14]
And the Son'''being in the form of God...made Himself of no repution, and took upon Him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, He ''humbled'' Himself, and became obediant uto death, even the death of the Cross ''''[Philip 2 : 6 , 7 , 8 ]



i was once told , that if you wish your child to not become Christian, ''send them to a Catholic (papist) school...''' It seems to be true for many people i know as well........

Prayer in the Orthodox Church has been the same as in the early church.......Prayer is done throughout the day, morning,before lunch ,after lunch, before bed , before undertaking any work etc.....(thanking God for food)This was actually done many yrs ago by many Christians but ''it seems it's not in ''''Fashion''' to do this any more.....

Prayer is done '''bowing'' or head touching the floor like the Muslims.....only , Christianity is elder......Muslims, will tell you that alot of their habits are taken from Christianity...........The covering of the womens head....(it is done by women ....it is not obligatory but on whom wishes they can.......it is worn in church out of Respect....and also for the attention on the Readings in church....your mind is on prayer and prayer only..........

The eastern Orthodox church have not changed since the Apostles .........That is why the Orthodox is said to be '''old fashioned'' and not '''up with the times!!!''''''
The ''Pope'' himself said that the original teachings is held within the ''Eastern orthodox ''church.....So why is he considered infallible???
The head of our church is Jesus Christ.....
there is no man that is infallible.........The Pope has much to answer for.........

Helen I think you need to undersand the history of your religion before you try and seperate the cathoilc church from christany.

The first orginized form of christanity was from Rome weather you want to believe it or not. I didn't say prayer wasn't important. i think it's very important. But who are you praying to the father or Jesus. I already told you the truth behind the trinty and yet you still follow it blindly.

As far as the bible goes you have to understand that there is a alot of misinterpretation. First of all neither of us know hebrew the orginal language that the new testement was written in so we can't take everything that is written as the exact meaning.

The versus that I put out there were supposdly came from Jesus mouth him self. He allways put his father GOD higher than him. can't you see that. Why worship the Son when the father is greater??!?!?

When Jesus Christ speaks to His Father, He speaks of Him in an ''earthly body'' He took Flesh and became Man............

here's a link..............
to those that want the explanation of ''God's nature''


orthodoxinfo.com...

orthodoxinfo.com...




[Edited on 26-4-2003 by helen670]

Originally posted by krossfyter
okay. what about the dieing for our sins thing? what are you saying?

I posted this somewhere else, but I'm going to post it agian.

Jesus died for Everyone's sins.. When he asked God to forgive those who had killed him (for they knew not what they were doing) he asked God to forgive all. That is the message of Jesus as I interpret it: Father, forgive everyone of All sin, for no soul deserves eternity suffering.
He let everyone into Heaven. How you choose to thank him, praise him or whatever, is up to you. Just remember that if everyone being in Heaven doesn't sound appealing to you, then be thankful that Jesus did what he did, for you could be a judger. And only God is capable of judging man, no?

quango...
what i ment by that question was why that question was even asked from my response. i know why Jesus died for our sins already.

there are lots of reasons why Jesus (God incarnate) came to this earth. one reason is to be a model for us... the other is to free us from the burden of our sins... amongst other reasons. i was just going on about one reason up there in my last post i believe.

oh and abstract just to let you know im not trying to avoid you. i read your posts and ive gained more of a respect for you. we essentially agree on some big concepts etc. but i hope that doesnt effect us being civil with each other. its a good start so far.

Originally posted by krossfyter
quango...
what i ment by that question was why that question was even asked from my response. i know why Jesus died for our sins already.

there are lots of reasons why Jesus (God incarnate) came to this earth. one reason is to be a model for us... the other is to free us from the burden of our sins... amongst other reasons. i was just going on about one reason up there in my last post i believe.

ahh.. yes.. well, i was just making sure everyone was paying attention.

got ya!

Originally posted by krossfyter
oh and abstract just to let you know im not trying to avoid you. i read your posts and ive gained more of a respect for you. we essentially agree on some big concepts etc. but i hope that doesnt effect us being civil with each other. its a good start so far.