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The Mormon Church is a Cult

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posted on May, 19 2012 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by arbiture1200

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by arbiture1200
Frankly, I don't care what a person believes or does not. But if those beliefs will affect my country? You bet your brass tacks it concern's me.


So - you'd be good with an Atheist president?


Um, well it depends on the person. An atheist is convinced there is no god.


Lack belief in a god. All legitimate atheists are also agnostic - - god can not be proven or dis-proven.


An agnostic admits they just don't know.


Fence sitter


For me it always boils down to the first principle. Are they "good people" Thats the only thing that concerns me.. And a few million more problems...


I was raised Christian. I married a Mormon. I am now Atheist.

The Mormons and Wiccans are the "goodest" (labeled group) people I have ever known on a personal level.

Romney is a corporate take over shark - - born with a silver spoon. Mormonism is the only positive I see about him.




posted on May, 19 2012 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by arbiture1200

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by arbiture1200
reply to post by Annee
 


Um no. At least officially. And yes it is was so convenient for them,The Mormon Church waited until 1969 to open their harts to other peoples of Gods different nature. Until 1969 the Moran Church did not even accept any people that were remotely different. How odd of them to suddenly change their mind. It is not in my nature to assault a persons religion. Frankly, I don't care what a person believes or does not. But if those beliefs will affect my country? You bet your brass tacks it concern's me.


Are you Mormon?

What is the source of your information?


Blacklds.org - A Web Site Dedicated to Black Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
This site celebrates the contributions of Blacks to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to their communities. Latter-day Saints are also known as Mormons due to their belief in the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible.

We hope to correct racial myths and misunderstandings that linger from critics of Mormonism as well as from Latter-day Saints themselves. We strive to build the Gospel vision that we are all children of God, of great and equal worth in His sight.

Blacks have been Latter-day Saints since the church’s beginnings in the 1830′s. Some held the priesthood and served missions in the early church. Click on History to see a timeline on how Latter-day Saint events and views toward Blacks unfolded along with religious and secular racial history in America. Read the stories of Black pioneers..www.blacklds.org...


There are always those willing to re right history, but the arguments that the Mormon Church was integrated prior to its "revaluation"? You will have to take it up with them. I stand by what I said, and you would as well if you took the time time to read history. I honestly do not mean to be insulting, so if you have information that conflicts with what I have said, I would welcome it. Personally I don't give a damn what a persons religion is, I never did. Just do the most difficult job on Earth well. I'll settle for that.


Seriously! You are trying to claim what I posted is re-writing history?

Throw it back at me because you are 100% wrong - - - and can not dis-prove blacks were always part of the Mormon church.

Read history? As a Mormon convert (by marriage) - - - I read everything - both Pro and Con. That's how I know how difficult it is to find legitimate factual history on Mormonism. I've never researched anything else - - that I had to wade through so much mis-information.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
I was raised Christian. I married a Mormon. I am now Atheist.

The Mormons and Wiccans are the "goodest" (labeled group) people I have ever known on a personal level.

Romney is a corporate take over shark - - born with a silver spoon. Mormonism is the only positive I see about him.





It's also the only positive I see about him!
edit on 19-5-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 05:23 PM
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If it helps any, I was born and raised Mormon, but am now a Methodist. It's not that I dislike Mormons, I just really like my soda and cigs, but anyway... In the early 70's there was a black family in the tiny little eastern Kentucky Mormon Church. I know one black family isn't much, but considering there were only three black families in town, that makes it one third of the population. From what my parents told me, they had been members as long as they could remember, so it was well before 1969, hence, Annee is correct, the person saying she's lying is wrong.
My Great Great Grandfather was "Mormon John Shrout" who formed the church here in Kentucky and his sons and grandsons were all Bishops, Elders and so on. There are even stories about how he was excommunicated twice, and still returned to be a Bishop again, crazy stories that go on and on forever....maybe that was my Great Grandfather who they were talking about, not sure anymore, it's been a long while since I heard the stories.
So.... I have a pretty good handle on it, although by no means do I have all the answers nor am I as familiar with doctrine as I would be if I had stayed.
edit on 19-5-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by PurpleChiten
From what my parents told me, they had been members as long as they could remember, so it was well before 1969, hence, Annee is correct, the person saying she's lying is wrong.


Thanks. My hobby interest is social/cultural anthropology.

I was never that interested in the actual current belief - - cuz I'm just not that into religion.

But I was definitely interested in the roots and history from all sources - - not just Mormon historians.

Telling me to read history on this is laughable.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hubby and I owned a business. I was little more then the receptionist. Which was great - - - because for 20 years - - - all I did was sit in front of my computer and read stuff. LOL

edit on 19-5-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 05:47 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


I am honestly not trying to rain on your parade, thats not my style. But can you provide evidence that contradicts what I said? I would be more then willing to apologize.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by HardToStarboard

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
reply to post by HardToStarboard
 


OK, as long as you aren't calling another established Christian religion a cult when it isn't, that's fine


I literally never once said I thought anyone belonging to any religion anywhere at any time in this entire thread or elsewhere was in a cult. You, however, stated that I was in a cult several times. I don't believe LDS is a cult. Unlike what several on this thread have inclined to offer I do not believe that all religions are cults and I don't believe there are very many true cults in existence. I think we have some great examples of cults - Branch Davidians, Hale-Bopp, etc., but I don't believe any cults are represented in any of the mainstream religions at large (LDS, any Christian denomination, Islam, etc.).

I never said Mormons were a cult, I was defending them from the folks that were

Oh well, guess we were caught up in the thread and assumed we were on opposing sides then. Your claim that they couldn't be Christian if they didn't agree with the trinity and it being the cornerstone of Chrsitianity certainly made it seem that way.
edit on 19-5-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)


I never stated anywhere that they couldn't be Christian if they didn't believe in the Trinity. The only point I made had to do with the fact that LDS denies that Jesus is God. They credit Him with being the Son of God but not as actually God (being incarnate and dwelling among us). As a Methodist you should know how important it is to Christian faith that we believe that God was wholly present in Jesus.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by HardToStarboard


I never stated anywhere that they couldn't be Christian if they didn't believe in the Trinity. The only point I made had to do with the fact that LDS denies that Jesus is God. They credit Him with being the Son of God but not as actually God (being incarnate and dwelling among us). As a Methodist you should know how important it is to Christian faith that we believe that God was wholly present in Jesus.


No, God was not wholly present in Jesus. Even those who accept the concept of the trinity say they were "split apart" and Christ was fully human while here on earth and only after he ascended did he 'recombine' with God.
I didn't say I was a "Good Methodist", just a Methodist. I still question, I still research, I still try to find the truth even though there is a group of people I enjoy fellowship with and share in our worship of God and Christ as our Creator and our Savior (for me, it's not one and the same, but connected nonetheless since Christ is the Son of God). You can't make assumptions about someone's belief based only on what church they may attend or if they attend one at all.

You certainly did IMPLY that was the case whether you stated it or not.
edit on 19-5-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-5-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by HardToStarboard

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by HardToStarboard

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
reply to post by HardToStarboard
 


OK, as long as you aren't calling another established Christian religion a cult when it isn't, that's fine


I literally never once said I thought anyone belonging to any religion anywhere at any time in this entire thread or elsewhere was in a cult. You, however, stated that I was in a cult several times. I don't believe LDS is a cult. Unlike what several on this thread have inclined to offer I do not believe that all religions are cults and I don't believe there are very many true cults in existence. I think we have some great examples of cults - Branch Davidians, Hale-Bopp, etc., but I don't believe any cults are represented in any of the mainstream religions at large (LDS, any Christian denomination, Islam, etc.).

I never said Mormons were a cult, I was defending them from the folks that were

Oh well, guess we were caught up in the thread and assumed we were on opposing sides then. Your claim that they couldn't be Christian if they didn't agree with the trinity and it being the cornerstone of Chrsitianity certainly made it seem that way.
edit on 19-5-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)


I never stated anywhere that they couldn't be Christian if they didn't believe in the Trinity. The only point I made had to do with the fact that LDS denies that Jesus is God. They credit Him with being the Son of God but not as actually God (being incarnate and dwelling among us). As a Methodist you should know how important it is to Christian faith that we believe that God was wholly present in Jesus.


No, God was not wholly present in Jesus. Even those who accept the concept of the trinity say they were "split apart" and Christ was fully human while here on earth and only after he ascended did he 'recombine' with God.
I didn't say I was a "Good Methodist", just a Methodist. I still question, I still research, I still try to find the truth even though there is a group of people I enjoy fellowship with and share in our worship of God and Christ as our Creator and our Savior (for me, it's not one and the same, but connected nonetheless since Christ is the Son of God). You can't make assumptions about someone's belief based only on what church they may attend or if they attend one at all.

You certainly did IMPLY that was the case whether you stated it or not.
edit on 19-5-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)


You're right. I can't make that assumption. I wrongly assumed you upheld the core beliefs of your church.

www.umc.org...



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by HardToStarboard

You're right. I can't make that assumption. I wrongly assumed you upheld the core beliefs of your church.



Very few average adherents ever uphold the printed beliefs of their "church" as written by those trying to define it
edit on 19-5-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 06:00 PM
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I did not make that implication. If you can quote something I wrote that appears I made the implication you'll have my apology.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 06:01 PM
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Good nuff... you're not the one we're dealing with as far as being obnoxious anyway, so apology accepted, have a nice day



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by HardToStarboard

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by HardToStarboard

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by HardToStarboard

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
reply to post by HardToStarboard
 


OK, as long as you aren't calling another established Christian religion a cult when it isn't, that's fine


I literally never once said I thought anyone belonging to any religion anywhere at any time in this entire thread or elsewhere was in a cult. You, however, stated that I was in a cult several times. I don't believe LDS is a cult. Unlike what several on this thread have inclined to offer I do not believe that all religions are cults and I don't believe there are very many true cults in existence. I think we have some great examples of cults - Branch Davidians, Hale-Bopp, etc., but I don't believe any cults are represented in any of the mainstream religions at large (LDS, any Christian denomination, Islam, etc.).

I never said Mormons were a cult, I was defending them from the folks that were

Oh well, guess we were caught up in the thread and assumed we were on opposing sides then. Your claim that they couldn't be Christian if they didn't agree with the trinity and it being the cornerstone of Chrsitianity certainly made it seem that way.
edit on 19-5-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)


I never stated anywhere that they couldn't be Christian if they didn't believe in the Trinity. The only point I made had to do with the fact that LDS denies that Jesus is God. They credit Him with being the Son of God but not as actually God (being incarnate and dwelling among us). As a Methodist you should know how important it is to Christian faith that we believe that God was wholly present in Jesus.


No, God was not wholly present in Jesus. Even those who accept the concept of the trinity say they were "split apart" and Christ was fully human while here on earth and only after he ascended did he 'recombine' with God.
I didn't say I was a "Good Methodist", just a Methodist. I still question, I still research, I still try to find the truth even though there is a group of people I enjoy fellowship with and share in our worship of God and Christ as our Creator and our Savior (for me, it's not one and the same, but connected nonetheless since Christ is the Son of God). You can't make assumptions about someone's belief based only on what church they may attend or if they attend one at all.

You certainly did IMPLY that was the case whether you stated it or not.
edit on 19-5-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)


You're right. I can't make that assumption. I wrongly assumed you upheld the core beliefs of your church.

www.umc.org...


Very few average adherents ever uphold the printed beliefs of their "church" as written by those trying to define it


I would disagree with your generalization of "very few." Unless you can cite data that support your statement....



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by HardToStarboard


I would disagree with your generalization of "very few." Unless you can cite data that support your statement....


ok...

Anyway... you may want to go back and edit out some of the long quoting in your posts, there are some moderators who really frown on that because it takes up more room on the servers. May as well do our part in keeping the board clear and in good working order



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by PurpleChiten
Good nuff... you're not the one we're dealing with as far as being obnoxious anyway, so apology accepted, have a nice day


I said I'd apologize IF you could show me precisely where I made the implication. If you want to back down from your statement that's fine, but you're still welcome to support it here or via private message.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by arbiture1200
reply to post by Annee
 


I am honestly not trying to rain on your parade, thats not my style. But can you provide evidence that contradicts what I said? I would be more then willing to apologize.


You want to try that again? Let's not play games.

FACT: black people were part of the Mormon religion from the beginning.

You ever heard of the "Mark of Ham" or "Curse of Cain"? Christians used those little "ditties" to justify slavery. Prejudice against blacks was a social/cultural reality in the early years of America. It was unfortunately the "norm". Whites had their churches and blacks had theirs.

Blacks were never officially denied membership in the Mormon church. But there was a doctrine that denied them some positions of authority. Which I already stated.

In 1978 that doctrine was officially removed:


On 30 September 1978, at the 148th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was presented by President N. Eldon Tanner, First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church: In early June of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been received by President Spencer W. Kimball extending priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy male members of the Church. President Kimball has asked that I advise the conference that after he had received this revelation, which came to him after extended meditation and prayer in the sacred rooms of the holy temple, he presented it to his counselors, who accepted it and approved it. It was then presented to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who unanimously approved it, and was subsequently presented to all other General Authorities, who likewise approved it unanimously. www.lds.org...







edit on 19-5-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by HardToStarboard

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by HardToStarboard

Can you provide a reference showing LDS doesn't deny that Jesus is God? I would truly be interested in seeing that from an LDS source or one that cites them directly.


Yeah, it's on their homepage. mormon.org...

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the official name of the religion commonly called the Mormon Church. We believe first and foremost that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God.


That's still not saying that they believe He IS God. Calling Him the Son of God isn't the same as the phrase accepted in The Creed. I would still be interested in a valid reference stating the fact unequivocally. Until then I'll stand by the reference I provided and by the notion that LDS is not fully a Christian religion. To deny that Christ is God is to deny the very core of the Christian faith.


This pretty well does it, now, apology accepted...

.... besides, you said IF I could, you would apologize, and I could, therefore, you apologized, you didn't say I actually had to do it, just if I had the capacity to do it



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by arbiture1200
reply to post by Annee
 


I am honestly not trying to rain on your parade, thats not my style. But can you provide evidence that contradicts what I said? I would be more then willing to apologize.


You want to try that again? Let's not play games.

FACT: black people were part of the Mormon religion from the beginning.

You ever heard of the "Mark of Ham" or "Curse of Cain"? Christians used those little "ditties" to justify slavery. Prejudice against blacks was a social/cultural reality in the early years of America. It was unfortunately the "norm". Whites had their churches and blacks had theirs.

Blacks were never officially denied membership in the Mormon church. But there was a doctrine that denied them some positions of authority. Which I already stated.

In 1978 that doctrine was officially removed:


On 30 September 1978, at the 148th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was presented by President N. Eldon Tanner, First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church: In early June of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been received by President Spencer W. Kimball extending priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy male members of the Church. President Kimball has asked that I advise the conference that after he had received this revelation, which came to him after extended meditation and prayer in the sacred rooms of the holy temple, he presented it to his counselors, who accepted it and approved it. It was then presented to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who unanimously approved it, and was subsequently presented to all other General Authorities, who likewise approved it unanimously. www.lds.org...







edit on 19-5-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)


I did have a great uncle who was extremely racist and also a Bishop. The two didn't go hand in hand. Even though he was very racist (early 70's again), he treated the black members of the church with dignity and respect...he just didn't like it much. Other than being racist, he was basically a decent person, I just wish he could have overcome that hatred he had which had nothing to do with religion. My Grandmother always said he had a good reason but never told us what it was, so it must have been something personal.

*Just want to note, he was in Lexington, a much larger area than our tiny little town
edit on 19-5-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by HardToStarboard

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by HardToStarboard

Can you provide a reference showing LDS doesn't deny that Jesus is God? I would truly be interested in seeing that from an LDS source or one that cites them directly.


Yeah, it's on their homepage. mormon.org...

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the official name of the religion commonly called the Mormon Church. We believe first and foremost that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God.


That's still not saying that they believe He IS God. Calling Him the Son of God isn't the same as the phrase accepted in The Creed. I would still be interested in a valid reference stating the fact unequivocally. Until then I'll stand by the reference I provided and by the notion that LDS is not fully a Christian religion. To deny that Christ is God is to deny the very core of the Christian faith.


This pretty well does it, now, apology accepted...

.... besides, you said IF I could, you would apologize, and I could, therefore, you apologized, you didn't say I actually had to do it, just if I had the capacity to do it


There's no implication there other than what I've stated all along.

Thanks for the dialogue today; it's been very interesting. And you have a nice day as well. I wish you all the best. My apologies for anything that may have seemed negative in any way.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 06:15 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Then I would stand corrected. But I do have a question though. Why would any church or organization deny any group of persons, as you put it a "position of authority" at all if race was not an issue? I'm not at all saying it's the only one, but what else is there? In other words, just what is going on here (if anything at all of course)?
edit on 5/2/12 by arbiture1200 because: correct spelling



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