A theory of proof of a God

do you think these things are illusory?

It wouldn't matter. This universe to be a mere computer simulation and it would be irrelevant to my point. Occam Razor can't escape the issue, or the premises of my point. My discussion in this thread is only on the subject of the concept of "GOD".. I don't need to get into the semantics or deeper details when they are all, irregardless, bound to the very base premises to my argument. So I will leave this here for anyone that cares to answer it:

What is GOD without Existence?

It's the most damning and avoided question I have ever devised to ask... It strips away all the nonsense..

so the same kind of self generation as a man who is born and lives a linear life and has a line of work,,,, we can view hiim objectively as a part of nature acting out its function,,, just as rain does?

I don't think it's necessary to be redundant by formatting your questions here to that of mine above... I can apply that question regarding existence to any question you can ask.. Hence, you are in futility, seemingly trying to circumvent the context of my argument

reply to post by TheJackelantern


"These answers you are going to have to wait for... But so far, all evidence is self-generation regardless. So to put that into context of why that is.. here an example argument that will even consider basic tenants of "creationism": "


so the same kind of self generation as a man who is born and lives a linear life and has a line of work,,,, we can view hiim objectively as a part of nature acting out its function,,, just as rain does?

self generation like cells in a body? which we do not physically control each one but they have functions and duties and perform,? but thats not right cuz cells communicate,,, and you dont think the primal energy communicated,,, even if it was similar to how cells communicate.,,..,,.,.

reply to post by TheJackelantern


"Now knowing at the start that a conscious state can't exist without cause, we can then know that the system as a whole is a self-generating system.."

would you say that capitalism/free market is a self governing system?(at least meant to be) yet it was established and created by people?

a computer can be programed to run endless algorithms and practically fix and run itself,,,,,

there could have been a programmer behind the self solving algorithms of this universe,,,,
but that programmer would have had to be the product of something?
and that something would have had to create the programmer by itself?

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by TheJackelantern

 

"Now knowing at the start that a conscious state can't exist without cause, we can then know that the system as a whole is a self-generating system.."

would you say that capitalism/free market is a self governing system?(at least meant to be) yet it was established and created by people?

a computer can be programed to run endless algorithms and practically fix and run itself,,,,,

there could have been a programmer behind the self solving algorithms of this universe,,,,
but that programmer would have had to be the product of something?
and that something would have had to create the programmer by itself?

You're going way off the subject and are now producing circular arguments not relevant to the point. So unless you can show us how one designs and creates existence itself so itself can exist, you have no relevant argument concerning this. And such algorithms btw are also necessary for the basics of cognitive systems, so it's also a self-refuting argument.

Tzimtzum: A Kabbalistic Theory of Creation by Dr. Sanford Drob
thejewishreview.org...

Originally posted by TheJackelantern

im not sure about that

If it didn't, this centrifugal force / G-force would have nill effect on the conscious state. Hence, the disruption of information processing of the system. And information can't be made of nothing since nothing can't exist.. So this fundamentally proves the point:

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

A Creator who contracted or constricted Himself - apart from the whole into 4 elements which would then be the sub-atomic particles of all the universe - above and below could most definitely.

This doesn't make any sense...How do you exist outside of existence to be apart from the "WHOLE"?. That argument again is a self-refutation.. Hence, are you trying to say a GOD can exist in a place of non-existence? Well, at that point, saying your god is outside of existence and in a place of non-existence is like trying to defect to the other side of the debate to try and win the debate. It's a self-admission of the non-existence of said god concept. You can't just toss out "outside the whole" and have it make any sense.

edit on 26-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)

reply to post by TheJackelantern


hmm,, well my bad for that,,,,, I forgot you can get off topic,,, i was still focused on the every things connected and related part,, no thinking outside the box for there is no box,,,,

i also like to relate these things to man,, to see what people ( you ) think,,, people tend to view humans as something existing all to them selves,,, literally in a whole another world compared to anything else that exists,,,, most are disgusted and scared of our true nature and our goal of progression is to escape it,,,,, so asking your opinion on judging humans from an unbiased sources as natural manifestations of nature is interesting for me,,

Originally posted by rootbranch2012
Tzimtzum: A Kabbalistic Theory of Creation by Dr. Sanford Drob

You can't exist outside of existence to contain it.. and a mind needs containment to which can not exist outside of existence either. The argument made is faulty circular logic and is a self-refutation.. Even if the entirety of existence was one giant brain / mind, it's still a fact that the conscious state can't exist without cause, or being in and of existence.. It still fails utterly to circumvent the premises I made. Information science and theory alone destroys that argument. Information itself is higher on the GOD totem pole than that which is slave to require it to even know itself exists. Hence I don't even have to comment about existence itself as a whole. And in information theory, I is all the information that give I an Identity. Please review my links concerning information science and theory.. More notably, the ABC's..

The double-slit experiment wasn't affected by the naked eye, it was affected by the electron detector. In order to observe the particles, they had to use an electron detector (the only thing capable to detect and "observe" a particle), which send an electron to the particle, thus detecting it (observing it), and thus created an interference in the experiment (because the electron hit the particle, thus affecting it). We can't affect a particle with our eyes, it doesn't send a particle or a waveform.
There was another thread on it, and one of the members explained it.

reply to post by TheJackelantern


What is God without existence?


I think i found my answer,.,.,.,.,.,.,.


Without existence There is nothing,,,,,,,

With existence there is God,,,,,,,,,,

or,,,,

There is existence,,,, there is God,

what is existence without God



What is God without existence?

without existence,,,, nothing = nothing

if there is God,,,, there exists existence,,,

if there is existence,,,, maybe god is the sum of existence

if there is existence ,,,,, maybe god is existence,,,,

if there is existence ,,,,,, maybe theres just existence

I think i found my answer,.,.,.,.,.,.,.
Without existence There is nothing,,,,,,,
With existence there is God,,,,,,,,,,

So you are agreeing, and at best calling existence itself GOD.. I almost wonder if you comprehended the question asked O.o

There is existence,,,, there is God,
what is existence without God

Now first you're claiming existence is GOD [Pantheism], and then you try to turn the question around on itself. Well, existence doesn't require GOD to exist, or even the title. Existence simply exists without creation because non-existence can not be an existing person, place, object, substance, or thing. Your question is fundamentally meaningless by consequence. And thus existence is simply existence without GOD. And again it seems you didn't comprehend the context of the question I asked.. You're trying to circumvent having to actually answer the question in accordance to the context of the question.

What is God without existence?

without existence,,,, nothing = nothing

Again nothing can't exist, and you're avoiding answering the question

if there is God,,,, there exists existence,,,

So tell us all how a non-existing GOD creates existence so itself can exist. You do understand what a self-refuting argument is right?

if there is existence,,,, maybe god is the sum of existence

Thanks for calling me and everyone else GOD.. Including that rock over there..

if there is existence ,,,,, maybe god is existence,,,,

Pantheism and I appreciate you redundantly proving my point.

if there is existence ,,,,,, maybe theres just existence

TADA! So what is GOD without existence?

It's meaningless, non-existent, pointless, irrelevant, moot, and at best an opinion or figment of your imagination. And one other thing, why is it that dishonest theists always type in spam spacing?

So ignoring circular logic and other fallacy games being displayed by some here.. I do believe I might be deserving of the 250 points for winning the debate Without existence there is no possibility of the concept of GOD, and thus I win

Originally posted by TheJackelantern
So ignoring circular logic and other fallacy games being displayed by some here.. I do believe I might be deserving of the 250 points for winning the debate

Without existence there is no possibility of the concept of GOD, and thus I win

without existence there is no possible concept of anything,,, there is no possible anything ,,,, there is no,,, thing,,, there is nothing,.,,.,.,..,

what would you think if god does exist?

what would it mean to you? what would it change intellectually and emotionally for you?

without existence there is no possible concept of anything,,, there is no possible anything ,,,, there is no,,, thing,,, there is nothing,.,,.,.,..,

You are redundantly stating the exact same thing in establishing true origins... So it's a good thing nothing doesn't have the capacity to exist as a person, place, object, substance, or thing. By definition alone it is self negating..

what would you think if god does exist?

Existence makes the concept moot so the question is meaningless. :/

what would it mean to you? what would it change intellectually and emotionally for you?

These questions are not relevant to the premise of this article. But if it helps, I was an evangelical Christian for over 20 years.. I know what it meant to me then, and how emotionally attached I was to it. Then I learned it's a moot concept and I don't need it to be happy. If fact, it's made me more honest with myself and others around me. And to state again, this really is not relevant to the premises of my argument regarding the subject "A theory of proof of a GOD"..

reply to post by TheJackelantern


"These questions are not relevant to the premise of this article. But if it helps, I was an evangelical Christian for over 20 years.. I know what it meant to me then, and how emotionally attached I was to it. Then I learned it's a moot concept and I don't need it to be happy. If fact, it's made me more honest with myself and others around me. And to state again, this really is not relevant to the premises of my argument regarding the subject "A theory of proof of a GOD".."

completely agree,,,,, once again i will say mans opinions and religions have nothing to do with the fact that as we have went over in our discussion,,, as long as existence existed before this universe,,, a conscious creator ( god) could have created this universe,,

I also tried to mention that there does seem to be differences between items in existence,,,,, and so you would say that even though it is true a god could have created this universe,,,, what we are, and what all creations that exist are,, is on the same level as the creator since both or all had to first become manifest as an existing entity,,, it puts everything that exists in the same boat,,,,,, I believe if that were the case human progression is futile because living the live of a rat or cockroch is the same as being a supreme intelligent being traveling around the universe and making your own worlds,,,,

as long as existence existed before this universe,,, a conscious creator ( god) could have created this universe,,

This of course can not be ruled out.. Especially when we ourselves, according to some physicists, could likely do the very same thing. Like I said, it's a matter of physics..And would that make us GOD? So we can agree on this, and if someone chooses to call that GOD, should it exist, it would at least be a plausible one. But they can't go around and assert it as fact and be taken seriously. Especially when we know as a whole, existence is a self-generating and self-organizing system to which also governs anything that is conscious to begin with. So its a matter of where you want to move the goal post.. Hence Pantheists move it to existence itself, or to the point where it can't go any further. And that is a very difficult thing considering religions like Christianity are supposed to be monotheistic. And well, if someone else's GOD exists, especially one their GOD would need to exist if it should exist, it becomes a big problem for them to deal with. :/ .. I spent countless of hours as a Christian trying to reconcile this problem after coming across it... How do I deal with what makes the concept technically moot? Well, I couldn't ignore it anymore and so GOD to me has become an irrelevant concept, and any entity that could plausibly exist would be just another entity like myself bound to the rules of existence regardless if it's more powerful than I, or if I were more powerful than it. I even come to realize that the concept of GOD is really more of an EGO issue, or something entirely Narcissistic. Hence anything that thinks it's GOD, is in my opinion full of delusions of narcissistic grandeur. :/

reply to post by TheJackelantern


"Hence anything that thinks it's GOD, is in my opinion full of delusions of narcissistic grandeur. :/"

you just think the idea of God is one of delusion and grandeur,..,,.,., but humans have given it that name,, and if god exists,, humans have given it its well deserved prestige,,,,, if there is a god we do not know what its ego is like,,,,, it "simply" created the universe,,, its not begging you to think or feel anything,,,, if it created the universe it created you and all potential for events in the universe,,,, we are to decide if that is grand or shrug our shoulders,,.,.,. like an archetecture or engineers work,,,, or if an artist is proud of their creation and proud of their ability for creating it do you have a problem with these peoples egos and sense of value? you dont believe in this god,, so he hasnt even forced you to worship its ego and ability,,, if a god did create this universe,,, and seeing as how you are interested in philosophy and reality and science,, it seems you traveled the path yourself,,, towards become enamored in wonder of the creator,,

"Hence anything that thinks it's GOD, is in my opinion full of delusions of narcissistic grandeur. :/"

you just think the idea of God is one of delusion and grandeur,..,,.,., but humans have given it that name,, and if god exists,, humans have given it its well deserved prestige,,,,,

You haven't read their doctrines have you? And it doesn't change the fact it's Narcissistic or a delusion of Grandeur... Whats worse is that I can call the dust bunny on my desk "GOD" and have that be just as relevant.. There is a reason why the concept of GOD is moot. Some worship the cow, and I eat cow with ketchup and fries.

if there is a god we do not know what its ego is like,,,,, it "simply" created the universe,,, its not begging you to think or feel anything,,,, if it created the universe it created you and all potential for events in the universe,,,,

Nope.. Since consciousness can't exist without cause, it actually all begins with existence itself.. All this entity would be, is a stage in the process that did create us. Do we call ourselves GOD's because we can build things? No.. And it's fundamentally the same thing..

we are to decide if that is grand or shrug our shoulders,,.,.,. like an archetecture or engineers work,,,, or if an artist is proud of their creation and proud of their ability for creating it do you have a problem with these peoples egos and sense of value?

Being proud of yourself is not the context of Narcissism I am using here. Thinking you are GOD is a delusion of Grandeur, and thinking others should worship you as such is Narcissistic. Let me give you an example:

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder.[1]


The narcissist is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity.[2] Narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to self-centeredness.

To which includes:

Narcissism is the personality trait of egotism, vanity, conceit, or simple selfishness. Applied to a social group, it is sometimes used to denote elitism or an indifference to the plight of others.

We can see this here:

* In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."


* Mark 16:15-16 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned to hell.


* Matthew 10:35-37 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.


* Luke 14:26 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


* Matthew 10:34 34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Now again I need address this regarding "origins':

you dont believe in this god,, so he hasnt even forced you to worship its ego and ability,,, if a god did create this universe,,, and seeing as how you are interested in philosophy and reality and science,, it seems you traveled the path yourself,,, towards become enamored in wonder of the creator,,

Again, the actual creator is existence itself.. The entity in question would only be a step in the process at best. So when I look for "Creator", I properly apply infinite regress to actually establish actual origins... The argument to worship another entity as GOD is silly. If someone created a clone human, should that clone human worship those whom cloned he/she as "GOD" ? .. Uhh no, that would be ridiculous and silly.

reply to post by LightSource

Electrons are also Quantum Particles that act as both Particle and wave. Electrons are particles of Energy that obit the Nucleus of an Atom and are responsible for Chemical Reactions as well as Electricity and Magnetic Fields.
Split Infinity

Believing in a God is a matter of faith not by facts and research. I'm a muslim and i believe in God but i cant proof that He exists, if i could everyone on earth would worship God. But God gave us free will to choose our religion and if chosen wrong Hell is your destiny.

reply to post by TheJackelantern


"Whats worse is that I can call the dust bunny on my desk "GOD" and have that be just as relevant.."

if that dust bunny created/established the entirety of the universe i would agree,,,,

we use the word "God" to label the seemingly sophisticated and powerful intelligence that allowed or determined this universe into existence.,,.,.
what do you give credit to for the glory of creation? the magnificence of it? you dont,,, because you think its defaultly something "easy",,,,,, its not that great,,, its just energy interacting with one another,,, if i was energy i could do that,, its not that special,,,, if i was a surgeon i could do brain surgery,,, its not special or hard,,,, if i was an engineer i could create a bridge,,, its done,,, its possible,, so it must be done and be able to be down,,,, if i was picaaso i could paint pictures just like that ,,,, its possible so theres nothing to it,,,,,, ok,,, so can you in all your glory create me a universe? how about an atom? how about a flower? or a heart? what are you and what can you do compared to the totality of the universe? did you establish geometry and math?

if nothing existed except for your consciousness in inifinte space,,,, and you had the ability to create what ever youd like but it would have to make logical sense,, in ways that your creation would all have to be composed of something ( particles) in order to be physical and "real",,,, but if you could think of your own primal infinitesimal construct and its abilitys and laws thats fine,,,, you can mention scale,, i.e. a very very very large universe connected of a gelatinous material,,, a 2d universe,,,,, what would you create? would there be any purpose or meaning? how long would you want it to last ( relatively),,.,. you can fill in the blank questions I missed which includes all questions you could ever ask ,,, the who, what, when , where, whys, hows?