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Originally posted by TheJackelantern
Originally posted by ImaFungi
Originally posted by TheJackelantern
We judge of the power of an intelligence by its works as no human being could create that which is produced by nature, it is evident that the first cause must be an Intelligence superior to man.
Last time I checked, it was existence itself that is first cause. Also, anything reliant on cognitive systems, such as a conscious state, are highly complex and would require far more cause to exist than pretty much everything you claim or think magically requires it. Your biggest clue to the folly of your argument is simply the difference between a rock and anything with a conscious state. Did you even bother to consider what is required for a conscious state to even be possible? And worst of all, anything of higher power ect will require far more cause to exist than anything of lower power. Yep, the highest levels can't exist without first the lowest possible levels..And that includes conscious states.. It's the ground states that are the most important. And you can't create that which yourself require to exist, function, or do anything at all.
edit on 22-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: simple corrections..
last time i checked there was no way for you to check what the first cause is.,.,..,,.
so what dumb blind unconscious magical nonmagician caused a rock to form,,,, or how did a rock come into existence by itself? how could anything come into existence "uncaused"?
Try making that statement without existence. And there must first be existence before you have any hope of existing. And let me explain something to you.. A rock can form simply because energy can interfere with itself . This to which for the same reason a snowflake can form without any conscious entity, or that a Universe could be born from a quantum fluctuation.. And the origin is also determined by what something is made of.. And everything is made of energy to which includes energy itself. And you can't create something from "nothing" as nothing doesn't exist. Hence, you can't take what doesn't exist and make something out of it. Just like a painter can't literally make his or her paints, he or she can only use what already exists to make paints with. And as we know, energy is the foundational property value of everything including itself as it is a Universal set of all sets. That includes information and energy as being two sides of the same coin..Your own computers proves this point alone. If it weren't, and if it couldn't interfere with itself, you or me wouldn't exist, and your computer wouldn't work. In fact, you couldn't have a cognitive system without it. But hey, if you want to get into why a conscious entity can't exist without cause, I can go into information science and theory if need be..
Edit:
So how about you answer the question I asked here:
What is GOd without Existence?
edit on 22-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)edit on 22-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: added question
ok ok nice nice....
first i am wondering why it is easy to assume and accept that something/energy can "simply" exist,,..,
since you admit nothing can not only, not exist,,, but if nothing did exist,, it could not create anything,, are you implying that.,,, "something"/energy always exists and always has? and that this energy had to always exist and always exist as physical dumbness,, before it could interact with itself to create complex systems and concepts such as life and intelligence?
Originally posted by TheJackelantern
ok ok nice nice....
first i am wondering why it is easy to assume and accept that something/energy can "simply" exist,,..,
since you admit nothing can not only, not exist,,, but if nothing did exist,, it could not create anything,, are you implying that.,,, "something"/energy always exists and always has? and that this energy had to always exist and always exist as physical dumbness,, before it could interact with itself to create complex systems and concepts such as life and intelligence?
It's rather simple.. Existence can't be made of nothing, and it just so happens energy is the substance value, and the capacity of everything in and of existence. This includes space itself. Lastly, energy is made of energy and has no other origin. Hence, it can't come from nothing, or be created from nothing... It can only come from what itself is made of. That is how you solve infinite regress and establish a universal set of all sets.
And clearly, we are expressions of this as energy beings made of atoms, and atoms made of energy. Clearly it's not just physical dumbness, it's capable of intellectual expression as well.. Such as ourselves.
E = Existence = Energy = information = force = cause = emergent properties = you, me, the stars, and everything else.
Or:
E = Existence
E = Energy
E = Everywhere
E = Emergence or Emerging properties
E = MC^2
E = Evolution
E = Everything
E = Everyone
E = Me to
And if you like, E = easy to understand without having to go into Everything E can do, or how E does Everything it can do. E is thus the only Established and Empirically supported truth we have thus far. E Enables us to do the things we do, and be who we are. And without E there is nothing, no Existence, no me, no you, not anything. And well, it's good to know that E exists simply because nothing can't. It's good to know that E can neither be created nor destroyed. This means we will Exist in some form or another regardless of what happens after death. E is even every letter in the alphabet since it is the Energy that makes up the very Essence of Every letter.
E Explains itself and is self-Explanatory.. It's also Eternal, and gives us the ability to Even have Emotion..
It's simply "E"
Yep, it's simply E if you really want to break it all down into it's simplest form. Now if you like, as stated before, I can describe how this works in relation to a conscious state and time, or the inertia of information in regards to why we know consciousness can't exist without cause.
energy includes space? as in effects of space produce energy? or energy itself is composed/constructed of quantized energized particles?
the light from these stars is stretching the space included within and of the universe?
do you believe our existence in and as the universe is all that exists,,,,, is there anything beyond the universe?
or is the energy-space dynamic all that exists and it is all a manifestation of E... which in this section of finite universe,,, is all that exists?
Big Bangs could be as common as lightning out to sea.
Events separated by distances so vast that we would never see them, or be capable of ever going to them. But one thing is for sure, existence is the Universe to which is the totality of everything that does exist.
capacity and volume are infinite but it can still be contained? like the rearrangements of the substance in a lava lamp?
what makes it infinite is time? ( and motion,, which may be time) but because it is not still and steady state,,, it is infinite and evolving?
your argument is that in order for something to exist and be tangible,, it must be energy,,, or energy-like in concept,,,,,, something physical,, and consistent,, and constructed,,? it must be something,,, anything but nothing.....
does a thought or dream exist? physically?
does the concept/potential of a circle exist if there were no universe ever?
Time is the successive instances of now. The flow of time is the inertia of information. And without the inertia of information, there can be no means to support things like cognitive systems capable of producing a conscious state or self-awareness. Without the inertia of information there can be no system with feedback, no interactions, or actions to which could drive a force to causation. In simple terms, time is an expression of process, existence, and duration of.
So in giving that time is the instance of now, and the inertia of it, we often think it's the conscious instant of now. However this is wrong because it takes time for information to process. This means that a source of inquiry, such as a baseball that has been pitched to you in order to be hit by you, the ball must first be sensed and then processed before any state of awareness of the ball can be realized, or put into a consciously aware state or time frame of reference. This means that the conscious state is pretty much a reflection and processing of the past to where the actual instant of now is before the conscious state ever emerges...
Originally posted by forddavidjunior
reply to post by LightSource
What I have channeled is that RA,Horus and O Siris created the explosion that created this a major galexy,Then they started bashing planets together to create all the minerals for life
what propelled/propels "E" to seek order and measurement?,,,
how is there so much "E" yet a specific finite amount?
if matter/energy is never created or destroyed does that mean every atom that exists and makes us up have always existed?
There is a message on the chalk board. Now if I take the eraser and erase the message, is there a loss of information?
so the universe is one single whole, made up of conceptually infinite parts,, which are all separated in ways and in ways all connected?
What is GOD without existence?
Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by TheJackelantern
even if a god did exist you would choose not to believe it because the concept offends you,,,,,,
Originally posted by john_bmth
Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by TheJackelantern
even if a god did exist you would choose not to believe it because the concept offends you,,,,,,
Incorrect. If there actually was evidence for the existence of a god or gods, belief would not come into it. The extremist factions of religion, however, are usually the ones to deny reality when presented with objective evidence.
if energy cannot be created or destroyed isnt there a specific finite amount?
I was also thinking in terms that the universe can not be all that exists,,, and if it is all that exists,,,
it is not infinite in the way that there can always be other options,, larger potential sizes,, infinite larger potential sizes and shapes and forms and functions,,,
the borders of the universe is expanding,,, can we give a finite size,, no it is expanding as of now it is in finite,,,,, but i guess this is just human restricted semantics to our own crafted terms,,,,,
ok so the laws of physics are some default code? ( whenever there is however much energy is the universe it will intertwine and establish itself in organized patterns and systems, and consistent relations and effects?
so the universe was really a scene similar to life on earth,,, fighting for energy
why atoms,, what about the structure is easy or intuitive that this whole physical universe is constructed out of them?
or once that atoms were formed is it the macro physical forces and laws that force atoms to stably react with one another to form structures such as planets and galxies?
I dont get this,,, if the information,,, which is meaning and understanding is lost,,, doesnt the information cease to exist?