A theory of proof of a God

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posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by TheJackelantern

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by TheJackelantern


We judge of the power of an intelligence by its works as no human being could create that which is produced by nature, it is evident that the first cause must be an Intelligence superior to man.


Last time I checked, it was existence itself that is first cause. Also, anything reliant on cognitive systems, such as a conscious state, are highly complex and would require far more cause to exist than pretty much everything you claim or think magically requires it. Your biggest clue to the folly of your argument is simply the difference between a rock and anything with a conscious state. Did you even bother to consider what is required for a conscious state to even be possible? And worst of all, anything of higher power ect will require far more cause to exist than anything of lower power. Yep, the highest levels can't exist without first the lowest possible levels..And that includes conscious states.. It's the ground states that are the most important. And you can't create that which yourself require to exist, function, or do anything at all.

edit on 22-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: simple corrections..


last time i checked there was no way for you to check what the first cause is.,.,..,,.

so what dumb blind unconscious magical nonmagician caused a rock to form,,,, or how did a rock come into existence by itself? how could anything come into existence "uncaused"?


Try making that statement without existence. And there must first be existence before you have any hope of existing. And let me explain something to you.. A rock can form simply because energy can interfere with itself . This to which for the same reason a snowflake can form without any conscious entity, or that a Universe could be born from a quantum fluctuation.. And the origin is also determined by what something is made of.. And everything is made of energy to which includes energy itself. And you can't create something from "nothing" as nothing doesn't exist. Hence, you can't take what doesn't exist and make something out of it. Just like a painter can't literally make his or her paints, he or she can only use what already exists to make paints with. And as we know, energy is the foundational property value of everything including itself as it is a Universal set of all sets. That includes information and energy as being two sides of the same coin..Your own computers proves this point alone. If it weren't, and if it couldn't interfere with itself, you or me wouldn't exist, and your computer wouldn't work. In fact, you couldn't have a cognitive system without it. But hey, if you want to get into why a conscious entity can't exist without cause, I can go into information science and theory if need be..

Edit:

So how about you answer the question I asked here:



What is GOd without Existence?


edit on 22-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)
edit on 22-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: added question


ok ok nice nice....

first i am wondering why it is easy to assume and accept that something/energy can "simply" exist,,..,

since you admit nothing can not only, not exist,,, but if nothing did exist,, it could not create anything,, are you implying that.,,, "something"/energy always exists and always has? and that this energy had to always exist and always exist as physical dumbness,, before it could interact with itself to create complex systems and concepts such as life and intelligence?




posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 07:04 PM
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ok ok nice nice....

first i am wondering why it is easy to assume and accept that something/energy can "simply" exist,,..,

since you admit nothing can not only, not exist,,, but if nothing did exist,, it could not create anything,, are you implying that.,,, "something"/energy always exists and always has? and that this energy had to always exist and always exist as physical dumbness,, before it could interact with itself to create complex systems and concepts such as life and intelligence?


It's rather simple.. Existence can't be made of nothing, and it just so happens energy is the substance value, and the capacity of everything in and of existence. This includes space itself. Lastly, energy is made of energy and has no other origin. Hence, it can't come from nothing, or be created from nothing... It can only come from what itself is made of. That is how you solve infinite regress and establish a universal set of all sets.

And clearly, we are expressions of this as energy beings made of atoms, and atoms made of energy. Clearly it's not just physical dumbness, it's capable of intellectual expression as well.. Such as ourselves.... Perhaps I should go into information science and theory here and try to put into some sort of understanding. My next post will address the common argument of something from nothing theists often get confused about. And from there, you can decide if you want me to put that into a deeper context dealing with information theory, information science, time, and why a conscious state can't exist without cause. So see the post below:

edit on 22-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by TheJackelantern



ok ok nice nice....

first i am wondering why it is easy to assume and accept that something/energy can "simply" exist,,..,

since you admit nothing can not only, not exist,,, but if nothing did exist,, it could not create anything,, are you implying that.,,, "something"/energy always exists and always has? and that this energy had to always exist and always exist as physical dumbness,, before it could interact with itself to create complex systems and concepts such as life and intelligence?


It's rather simple.. Existence can't be made of nothing, and it just so happens energy is the substance value, and the capacity of everything in and of existence. This includes space itself. Lastly, energy is made of energy and has no other origin. Hence, it can't come from nothing, or be created from nothing... It can only come from what itself is made of. That is how you solve infinite regress and establish a universal set of all sets.

And clearly, we are expressions of this as energy beings made of atoms, and atoms made of energy. Clearly it's not just physical dumbness, it's capable of intellectual expression as well.. Such as ourselves.


energy includes space? as in effects of space produce energy? or energy itself is composed/constructed of quantized energized particles? so in this view,, the universe is energy and space as one whole,,,, and not nothing,,, but,, absence exists outside of the universe? in each picosecond the universe expands the closest galaxies and stars to the edge,,, the light from these stars is stretching the space included within and of the universe?

and what i meant by physical dumbness,,, is about the rocks,, basic existence of matter presupposing any possible intelligence ( including ours,, and god) ,,, you are suggesting god does not exist because the simple non living matter must exist before an intelligence can exist capable of creating....

one of the many reasons i hold a personal section for the possibility of some sort of universal architect,,, is that I dont see why this universe has to be the first time anything has ever happened in the history of history,,, therefore this universe could have been created by a "god"...

i understand this just pushes the argument back,,, and we return to,,,,, existence of matter or potential for matter to move or collide and cohere,, must come before an intelligence capable of intentionally organizing anything,



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 07:27 PM
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Never mind... I will have to link due to "Character limits"

First read the following:

trekie70.newsvine.com...

Abstract:

Quoting myself:




E = Existence = Energy = information = force = cause = emergent properties = you, me, the stars, and everything else.

Or:

E = Existence
E = Energy
E = Everywhere
E = Emergence or Emerging properties
E = MC^2
E = Evolution
E = Everything
E = Everyone
E = Me to

And if you like, E = easy to understand without having to go into Everything E can do, or how E does Everything it can do. E is thus the only Established and Empirically supported truth we have thus far. E Enables us to do the things we do, and be who we are. And without E there is nothing, no Existence, no me, no you, not anything. And well, it's good to know that E exists simply because nothing can't. It's good to know that E can neither be created nor destroyed. This means we will Exist in some form or another regardless of what happens after death. E is even every letter in the alphabet since it is the Energy that makes up the very Essence of Every letter.

E Explains itself and is self-Explanatory.. It's also Eternal, and gives us the ability to Even have Emotion..

It's simply "E"

Yep, it's simply E if you really want to break it all down into it's simplest form. Now if you like, as stated before, I can describe how this works in relation to a conscious state and time, or the inertia of information in regards to why we know consciousness can't exist without cause.





energy includes space? as in effects of space produce energy? or energy itself is composed/constructed of quantized energized particles?


Read the link as it goes over ground state, vacuum energy, zero-point energy ect..
edit on 22-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)





the light from these stars is stretching the space included within and of the universe?


Light isn't stretching space O.o.. And there are two definitions of "Universe"..One is all inclusive (the totality of all that exists), and one that which resulted from the Big Bang to which is the observable universe. And the big bang can only have come from energy since it directly involves energy itself. But do read the part in that link dealing with capacity, space, and volume. In simple terms, it's like the expansion of a bubble in an infinite bubble bath. Eventually it's going to pop, and may even get replaced by another expanding bubble.
edit on 22-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 07:39 PM
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reply to post by TheJackelantern
 


i started reading,,, and will continue reading,,,,, but want to ask,,,,,

do you believe our existence in and as the universe is all that exists,,,,, is there anything beyond the universe?

or is the energy-space dynamic all that exists and it is all a manifestation of E... which in this section of finite universe,,, is all that exists?

also that every plancks length there is some quantity of particle connecting it all together ( because in no space can there be actual nothing)?
edit on 22-7-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 07:47 PM
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do you believe our existence in and as the universe is all that exists,,,,, is there anything beyond the universe?

or is the energy-space dynamic all that exists and it is all a manifestation of E... which in this section of finite universe,,, is all that exists?


Capacity and Volume are infinite.. But this doesn't mean that out in the infinite that there aren't others.. Hence I quote someone else:



Big Bangs could be as common as lightning out to sea.



Events separated by distances so vast that we would never see them, or be capable of ever going to them. But one thing is for sure, existence is the Universe to which is the totality of everything that does exist.



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by TheJackelantern
 


capacity and volume are infinite but it can still be contained? like the rearrangements of the substance in a lava lamp?

what makes it infinite is time? ( and motion,, which may be time) but because it is not still and steady state,,, it is infinite and evolving?

your argument is that in order for something to exist and be tangible,, it must be energy,,, or energy-like in concept,,,,,, something physical,, and consistent,, and constructed,,? it must be something,,, anything but nothing.....

does a thought or dream exist? physically?

does the concept/potential of a circle exist if there were no universe ever?



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 07:57 PM
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reply to post by TheJackelantern
 


also i encourage you to stay on this site and seek threads with the physics buffs, superiorly more adequate on the technical aspects of topics such as these then i ,,,

also once you get 20 posts you can make your own thread.... so you can wonder around the site and constructively comment on any thread and get 20 posts,
edit on 22-7-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 08:11 PM
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capacity and volume are infinite but it can still be contained? like the rearrangements of the substance in a lava lamp?


There are no boundaries to capacity or volume.. Your question is meaningless since any boundary to which could be argued for would have to be represented by a literal zero value, or literal nothing..These values to which are impossible to exist. So the question asked is meaningless. You understand infinite values by understanding why they are infinite.



what makes it infinite is time? ( and motion,, which may be time) but because it is not still and steady state,,, it is infinite and evolving?


Since non-existence or nothing can't ever literally exist, time is thus infinite. And your question doesn't make any coherent sense "/ .. Time doesn't evolve...it's simply the progression from one instant of now to the next, and is related the inertia of energy. In science, no time is a static state of absolute suspended animation.. And since energy can interfere with itself, no such state is likely possible.



your argument is that in order for something to exist and be tangible,, it must be energy,,, or energy-like in concept,,,,,, something physical,, and consistent,, and constructed,,? it must be something,,, anything but nothing.....


Pretty much




does a thought or dream exist? physically?


Yep.. and this starts to go into information =/= energy, and starts getting into information science and theory.. So yes, an imagined apple is just as much of a physical thing as a picture of an apple on your computer screen. One being electron based, and the other ion based. We can even abstract imagery and convert it to electron based data. Though the conversion corrupts the data due to incompatibility issues between ion and electron based processing. This will probably change once they start making ion based computer systems. They have already made a ion based transistor that can be used to communicated with biological systems. Yep, some day you might just be able to record your dreams, and even make movies right from your own mind.




does the concept/potential of a circle exist if there were no universe ever?


Existence always has the potential of a circle to exist. That includes the concept.. And what definition of Universe are you using here?
edit on 22-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)
edit on 22-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 08:33 PM
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Btw.. These two posts of mine might greatly interest you on the subject in dealing with information theory, information science, cognitive systems, the brain, and why consciousness can't exist without cause:

technology-science.newsvine.com...

Put into the context and relation to time:

technology-science.newsvine.com...

Abstract:

TIME & Information:



Time is the successive instances of now. The flow of time is the inertia of information. And without the inertia of information, there can be no means to support things like cognitive systems capable of producing a conscious state or self-awareness. Without the inertia of information there can be no system with feedback, no interactions, or actions to which could drive a force to causation. In simple terms, time is an expression of process, existence, and duration of.

So in giving that time is the instance of now, and the inertia of it, we often think it's the conscious instant of now. However this is wrong because it takes time for information to process. This means that a source of inquiry, such as a baseball that has been pitched to you in order to be hit by you, the ball must first be sensed and then processed before any state of awareness of the ball can be realized, or put into a consciously aware state or time frame of reference. This means that the conscious state is pretty much a reflection and processing of the past to where the actual instant of now is before the conscious state ever emerges...
edit on 22-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2012 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by LightSource
 


What I have channeled is that RA,Horus and O Siris created the explosion that created this a major galexy,Then they started bashing planets together to create all the minerals for life



posted on Jul, 25 2012 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by forddavidjunior
reply to post by LightSource
 


What I have channeled is that RA,Horus and O Siris created the explosion that created this a major galexy,Then they started bashing planets together to create all the minerals for life


Pfft, didn't you know it was magic elves? O.o



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 12:25 AM
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reply to post by TheJackelantern
 


what propelled/propels "E" to seek order and measurement?,,,

how is there so much "E" yet a specific finite amount?

if matter/energy is never created or destroyed does that mean every atom that exists and makes us up have always existed?

so the universe is one single whole, made up of conceptually infinite parts,, which are all separated in ways and in ways all connected?



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 01:08 AM
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what propelled/propels "E" to seek order and measurement?,,,


E



how is there so much "E" yet a specific finite amount?


There is a specific finite amount? Since when? I do think you are confused sir with different states of E..



if matter/energy is never created or destroyed does that mean every atom that exists and makes us up have always existed?


Curious question, what would you make E out of if E is only made of E? And where would you Get E if Everything in existence can only be made of what existence itself is made of? E can only be made of what existence itself is made of, and what is E made of? Yep, E! ...So regarding your question, I simply reply yes and no to your question. And here is why:

The energy that the atoms are made of would have always existed, but the atom itself is a state in which this E is currently in. Atoms have mass, and mass is measured by it's energy content. However, If you think of it in terms of information theory and information science, information can neither be created or destroyed. It can only change states, function, purpose, sequence, or meaning...

Example:


There is a message on the chalk board. Now if I take the eraser and erase the message, is there a loss of information?


Well, the answer is no.. There is only a change of state, function, and meaning. Hence, the chalk that made up the message on the board still exists as it either resides on the eraser, or has fallen to the floor. Thus all the information is still there to where there is no loss of information. So remember this in terms of computer science as well, and when the next time you decide for format your hard drives. And the base principle is that you can't literally ever convert something into literal nothing, or covert nothing into something. And to make anything at all, you have to use what already exists. Thus creationism at best is no different than man building sky scrapers, or ants building tunnels in fundamental concept since neither, nor any entity for that matter, can ever literally create something from nothing..



so the universe is one single whole, made up of conceptually infinite parts,, which are all separated in ways and in ways all connected?


The Universe as a whole, this being Existence itself, is simply E... How many parts like atoms it produces is not relevant. Does it, as an example argument, matter how many glass figurines you can make out of an infinite pile of sand? Nope! Everything is connected, and everything is bound to existence itself, bound to what existence itself is made of, and bound to what rules that which are the foundation of it to which governs everything in and of existence. To give you an idea of how connected we are.. Me and you are literally existence itself discussing this subject with itself. You and me are of existence.., and we must be in order to exist at all.

So yes, Existence is the totality of everything. It is causality itself. There is no GOD to existence but existence itself. And if you want to be a Pantheist and refer to existence as GOD, well feel free to do so.. However, at this point the concept of GOD becomes moot since that makes all of us GOD.. So once you go to the top of the god totem pole, this being existence itself, the concept of GOD becomes entirely moot. And also proves that no conscious being could ever hope to be GOD of existence since one can not create that which one is slave to require to function or exist at all. First Cause and the totality of causation resides solely with existence itself regardless of how you want to argue it.

So I would love to see a theist answer my simple question:



What is GOD without existence?


Well, it's meaningless, pointless, irrelevant, worthless, non-existent, and at best a fallacy of the imagination. And it's funny how such a simple question exposes how much of a fallacy the concept of GOD really is.
edit on 26-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 01:25 AM
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To add clarity.. We already know the base answer of why everything is here. We just don't fully understand the answer in terms of how it all works, how exactly E does everything it can do in terms of physics, or how chronologically we came to be from what-ever E processes that made us. And well, things like Chaos theory, information science, Information theory, Particle physics, quantum mechanics, and Quantum Electrodynamics have really helped us along on this trek to understand the nature of existence itself. This to which we ourselves are literally a part of. This trek is a mission to understand ourselves and not just everything else around us. We find that we live in a quantized existence, and that this form of existence is the only possible form of existence. After all, you have to be 1 above 0 to exist at all. And that alone is a quantized realization of a base fundamental governing law we are all bound to require to exist.
edit on 26-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)
edit on 26-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: typo



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by TheJackelantern
 


"There is a specific finite amount? Since when? I do think you are confused sir with different states of E"

if energy cannot be created or destroyed isnt there a specific finite amount? I was also thinking in terms that the universe can not be all that exists,,, and if it is all that exists,,, it is not infinite in the way that there can always be other options,, larger potential sizes,, infinite larger potential sizes and shapes and forms and functions,,, so thats what i meant by the universe is a specific finite system, its infinite to its own self in that at this moment we could not describe the entire system by its parts because there is potential infinite information every pico second that is always changing and evolving,,, the borders of the universe is expanding,,, can we give a finite size,, no it is expanding as of now it is in finite,,,,, but i guess this is just human restricted semantics to our own crafted terms,,,,,



"Curious question, what would you make E out of if E is only made of E? And where would you Get E if Everything in existence can only be made of what existence itself is made of? E can only be made of what existence itself is made of, and what is E made of? Yep, E! ...So regarding your question, I simply reply yes and no to your question. And here is why:

The energy that the atoms are made of would have always existed, but the atom itself is a state in which this E is currently in. Atoms have mass, and mass is measured by it's energy content. However, If you think of it in terms of information theory and information science, information can neither be created or destroyed. It can only change states, function, purpose, sequence, or meaning... "


ok so the laws of physics are some default code? ( whenever there is however much energy is the universe it will intertwine and establish itself in organized patterns and systems, and consistent relations and effects? or its just a domino chain of events,,,, because of every single variable,, every other area of condensed energy reacted "accordingly",,, so the universe was really a scene similar to life on earth,,, fighting for energy,, and bonding and building etc... everything is made of atoms,,, in order to have everything that exists on earth energy first needed to consistently create atoms,,, which it does with no problem,, why atoms,, what about the structure is easy or intuitive that this whole physical universe is constructed out of them? is it smaller quantom laws that force atoms to stabley exist,, or once that atoms were formed is it the macro physical forces and laws that force atoms to stably react with one another to form structures such as planets and galxies?



"There is only a change of state, function, and meaning. Hence, the chalk that made up the message on the board still exists as it either resides on the eraser, or has fallen to the floor. Thus all the information is still there to where there is no loss of information. So remember this in terms of computer science as well, and when the next time you decide for format your hard drives. And the base principle is that you can't literally ever convert something into literal nothing, or covert nothing into something. "

I dont get this,,, if the information,,, which is meaning and understanding is lost,,, doesnt the information cease to exist? example,,,, I write a letter to you with valuable personal message,,,, it gets shredded into a million pieces,,, i dont remember what i wrote,,,, that information is lost,,, or are you talking about some plato world of forms type things,,, a triangle is always a triangle,, 1+1=2,,,, all things that have ever happened in eternal time are true in the fact that the information was processed and did lead on to a future state of now?



"Everything is connected, and everything is bound to existence itself, bound to what existence itself is made of, and bound to what rules that which are the foundation of it to which governs everything in and of existence. To give you an idea of how connected we are.. Me and you are literally existence itself discussing this subject with itself. You and me are of existence.., and we must be in order to exist at all"


true this is more of what i mean,.,,.., you and I exist because the universe exists,,,,, we are connected with everything in the universe in the fact that everything in the universe exists in and as a part of the universe,,,, we all have that in common,,, yet we are soo disconnected by the fact of,,, try and leave this planet,,, can you slap another life form living on the nearest planet? how about the furthest? how about the nearest continent? connected and disconnected,,,, completely individual and separate,, yet one in the same and a part of the whole,,,




about all your anti god stuff,, you seem to have made up your mind about that,,,, even if a god



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by TheJackelantern
 


even if a god did exist you would choose not to believe it because the concept offends you,,,,,, could true reality be nothing like this universe,,, and this universe we reside in an original creation of an unimaginably advanced and sophisticated creator? even if the universe is an unbiased chaotically ordered recycling center,, what is the nature of the totality of reality and the universe that it exists in its scope,, and decides or is forced to do what it has been doing,, does,, and is? why does this energy let us come about and experience what we are as it?


so your slogan,,, what is god without existence? what is a painter without paint or canvas? what is a man without a mind? do you shrug your shoulders at histories great works of architecture and say, whats an architect without existence,,,, if there is an intentful creator behind the existence of the universe,, that creator created architecture,,, engineering,,, mechanics,,, chemistry,,,,physics,,, if theres not your dumb random universe created these elegant and elaborate systems of self organization and construction,,,,

do you own yourself,, or are you borrowed from nature? you take other creatures energy without thought,,, because its all fair game,, you are just nature engulfing itself for itself,,,,


"To add clarity.. We already know the base answer of why everything is here."

whats the base of why everything is here? is it,,,, everything was the same and together and there was no separation,,, and then that amount of everything that existed,, separated? thats how everything is here...... you think the why part is that that amount of everything had to be there/here always because if there is something now,, something always had to be,,, because even the purest nothing ness we know of is something,,,,,

why I have a personal place of belief for the possibility of an intelligent creator is I dont think we are nearly at the head of the race,,, cutting edge to understanding,,,, I believe this universe is ancient stuff,,,,,, I believe any futuristic technology we can think of probably was first conceived quadrillion universes ago,,,, and probably in the smallest part was used to create this one,,,, i believe we are late to the party,,, we are original creations of something else,,,,, our creative powers and thoughts do not precede the creation and subsequent information of all other things,



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by TheJackelantern
 


even if a god did exist you would choose not to believe it because the concept offends you,,,,,,

Incorrect. If there actually was evidence for the existence of a god or gods, belief would not come into it. The extremist factions of religion, however, are usually the ones to deny reality when presented with objective evidence.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 01:41 PM
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Originally posted by john_bmth

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by TheJackelantern
 


even if a god did exist you would choose not to believe it because the concept offends you,,,,,,

Incorrect. If there actually was evidence for the existence of a god or gods, belief would not come into it. The extremist factions of religion, however, are usually the ones to deny reality when presented with objective evidence.


yes but belief is subjective,,,,,, all human interpretation of reality is subjective,,,,,, so millions of people are born,,, and view every aspect of reality as proof of a creator of reality,,,,,,, some people do not view reality as proof of a creator,,,,, we all live in the same reality,,,,,, any objective fact about reality science finds thus far does not conflict with the possibility of a creator,,, if anything science is the most accurate religion in worship of the creator,,,,.,.

your expecting proof in terms of something "supernatural" occurring,,,, I think there is more of a solid structure to reality that prohibits "out of the ordinary" things like,, an essence of light appearing in your room right now saying,,, " yo,, im god,, pass it on",., I think the existence of reality and nature is already super ,..,,.,.,.
I dont think the fact that,,, an essence of light does not appear in your room proving god to you,,, is evidence for there being no god,..,,.,.,.
can you not fancy the thought of a creator who is responsible for the existence of the universe? you really cant play around with that concept? I believe science is the most important thing,,,, i believe reality does make sense,.,., I can exist my entire life ignorant to a whole lot of information,,, It could have easily never crossed my mind that something could have created this reality i inhabit,,,, the natural ignorance i am endowed with at birth would have told me the earth is flat and stars are the size of my pinky nail,,,, I love and seek to understand, comprehend,, toy with all outlooks and possible perspectives of what reality may be,,, the quantitative state and in turn meanings of quality,, the whys...... it bothers me when people are so adamantly against the prospect of there being a creator,,,,, mainly because most of there reasoning stems from the idocy and contradictory nature of mans religions,,, obviously man is fallible,,, and the prospect of there being a creator of this universe has nothing to do with what man thinks,, says,, or does,,..,...

so what is your faithful belief on what the universe is and how it was created?



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 01:42 PM
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if energy cannot be created or destroyed isnt there a specific finite amount?


Where did you get that reasoning from? Energy and capacity are the same, and you can't have a zero capacity.



I was also thinking in terms that the universe can not be all that exists,,, and if it is all that exists,,,


That's great, I wasn't.. My definition is all inclusive and doesn't matter if there are billions of universes, or places within Existence.



it is not infinite in the way that there can always be other options,, larger potential sizes,, infinite larger potential sizes and shapes and forms and functions,,,


Not relevant to the context of my argument, and would be bound to the context of my argument. And you can't add infinity to get more than infinity. It's a meaningless argument.



the borders of the universe is expanding,,, can we give a finite size,, no it is expanding as of now it is in finite,,,,, but i guess this is just human restricted semantics to our own crafted terms,,,,,


You're talking about the Observable Universe within the limits of what came from the Big Bang... The Universe in question is measured to be flat and is a type of open system, and even if it were a closed system, it can only ever exist in an overall open system.. No different than why your oven exists in the kitchen, and the kitchen in a house, and a house on a planet ect ect... Closed systems can only exist within other systems. Hence, capacity and volume of the entire system "existence" is infinite. Hence, you can't be contain in a box that has a zero capacity or volume to which can't sustain or contain an existence, or information for that matter.



ok so the laws of physics are some default code? ( whenever there is however much energy is the universe it will intertwine and establish itself in organized patterns and systems, and consistent relations and effects?


Now you're trying to get into physics questions asking for answers in how something works in terms of physics. This which isn't relevant to my point or the context of my argument. Existence itself governs the physics, and the answer is going to be quantized irregardless..


so the universe was really a scene similar to life on earth,,, fighting for energy


It's not fighting for energy, energy itself made it.. The Universe is an expansion, like a bubble blowing up in a bubble bath. It doesn't fight for any energy..



why atoms,, what about the structure is easy or intuitive that this whole physical universe is constructed out of them?


Again asking why it's "this way", or how exactly does it work is not addressing the context of my argument. You're still dealing with E, and the premises regarding Existence itself. But for fun, since we now have discovered the Higgs boson, why atoms becomes an answerable question by science. But you could sit here and ask why "Energy", and it wouldn't effect the base answer being existence itself. Energy just so happens to be what existence is made of.



or once that atoms were formed is it the macro physical forces and laws that force atoms to stably react with one another to form structures such as planets and galxies?


You are still looking at E as the base answer. If you want a detailed answer in terms of the physics, you will have to research and conduct experiments to find out how exactly it works. And yes, they are governed by energy. And it governs them from the micro to the macro level.



I dont get this,,, if the information,,, which is meaning and understanding is lost,,, doesnt the information cease to exist?


Nope, lost in that sense is misplaced, or no longer in the state of X meaning. Hence, does a tree still exist if you chop it up into firewood? Well, technically it does even though it changes form, function, state, and....--> meaning



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