A theory of proof of a God

Hi-

So the other day I was on here and I read a thread and watched a video on the double slit experiment which was amazing. It basically says that matter acts as a wave when not observed and in the act of observing it then acts as "normal" matter. Here is the link to the short 5 minute video.

www.youtube.com...

So my thought on the whole thing is that if matter does not act like matter unless it is "observed" then the universe was not created until it was "observed". Now I don't go to church however, I do believe in God or something to that effect. In the bible when God said "let there be light" and there was light, and that there was nothing before "God" then the universe became the universe when "God" became "aware" (I guess that would be my thought on it). Anyhow, i'm not saying that the bible is right but I do feel that this experiment shows that matter does not act like matter unless it is observed and is proof that our universe was formed out of someone one or something observing it.

reply to post by LightSource

The Double Slit is for Photons...Energy...Not Matter...and a Quantum Particle/Waveform at that.

As far as if there is a GOD...who knows. I also believe in something but it cannot be placed in any quantifiable concept.

The Double Slit shows Lights Wave Disbursement Pattern and overlapping multiple lines are seen behind the slits. A Photon...which is a particle of Light which behaves as both Particle and Wave...can actually be seen acting in a manner as if it has chosen it's path or is behaving as two particles.

In the Quantum World....particles do not behave like the Macro-Universe. This is most likely because the Quantum World is interconnective to the Multiverse and this means there are MANY VERSIONS of me and you.

I could get deep into this but I will use an example. Psychics....Police use them...the Military use them...there are some who are the real deal. How are they able to see possible futures or locate a lost child? It is their Brains ability to pierce our Universal Reality and see into a Divergent Universal Reality that is similar to our own.

The Quantum Particles that make up Protons and Neutrons such as Quarks, Leptons, Glueons...etc...are smaller Quantum Particles that make up the Larger Protons and Neutrons. Quarks for instance...maintain a minimum and maximum number in a proton or neutron but never are less than or more than those minimum or maximum numbers...inbetween these...they change quantity at will and BLINK IN AND OUT OF OUR UNIVERSAL EXISTANCE. Since there are many versions of this person of Psychic ability....they can acccess the Mind of another version of themselves in another Universal Reality at any Time Period...thus if Timmy fell down a well and died in a Divergent Universal State...once they found the body...that version of the Psychic in a future setting would know where the body was once it was found. The Psychic can then use this info to locate the boy in our Realities timeline before he dies because the Quantum particles in the psychics brain are exchanging between each other allowing interconnectivity between Universal States. Since Time is NOT LINEAR...they can access past or present. Split Infinity

Considering atheists "know" the double slit experiment and don't use it as something thought provoking or inspiring towards that end, prepare for your "idea" to be wrong.

Metaphors are the devil's work, amirite?

That's a hell of a thought ...

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Electrons are matter right? Everything in the universe is made of matter right? no matter the "size" of the particle we are all made of matter and the very smallest particles make up the biggest things in our universe right? so when some of the smallest particles of matter don't act like matter until they are observed then how did any matter ever act "normal" unless they were observed in the first place??

The double slit experiment has been around forever, and a new thread is created here just about every day about it.

While I believe in a God, I don't think quantum uncertainty is in any way relevant.

Originally posted by LightSource
Hi-

So my thought on the whole thing is that if matter does not act like matter unless it is "observed" then the universe was not created until it was "observed". Now I don't go to church however, I do believe in God or something to that effect. In the bible when God said "let there be light" and there was light, and that there was nothing before "God" then the universe became the universe when "God" became "aware" (I guess that would be my thought on it). Anyhow, i'm not saying that the bible is right but I do feel that this experiment shows that matter does not act like matter unless it is observed and is proof that our universe was formed out of someone one or something observing it.

I thought the experiment showed that without the observer the photons acted like both, a particle and a wave?

Originally posted by Turq1
Considering atheists "know" the double slit experiment and don't use it as something thought provoking or inspiring towards that end, prepare for your "idea" to be wrong.

Metaphors are the devil's work, amirite?

edit on 5/17/2012 by Turq1 because: (no reason given)

So all the large matter like the planets and solar system "act" like matter because they have been "observed". The electron does not act like matter until it is "observed" so who "observed" the large matter in the first place to make it "act" like matter? We are all just made up of atoms anyways why don't we just fly apart?

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by LightSource
Hi-

So my thought on the whole thing is that if matter does not act like matter unless it is "observed" then the universe was not created until it was "observed". Now I don't go to church however, I do believe in God or something to that effect. In the bible when God said "let there be light" and there was light, and that there was nothing before "God" then the universe became the universe when "God" became "aware" (I guess that would be my thought on it). Anyhow, i'm not saying that the bible is right but I do feel that this experiment shows that matter does not act like matter unless it is observed and is proof that our universe was formed out of someone one or something observing it.

I thought the experiment showed that without the observer the photons acted like both, a particle and a wave?

Matter is not suppose to act like a wave and its not until it is observed that it acts like it is suppose to. So all the the matter in the universe shouldn't act like it is unless it was "observed" first.

Provided that matter acts differently unless it's being observed(I'm not agreeing, just conceding), that means that there is no universal observer. It means that there couldn't be such thing as an omniscient deity, because everything would always act as if it's being observed.

Now, still conceding that maybe things act different when deserved, there's nothing saying regarding the creation and current state of the universe. Quantum Particles don't, if this is to be believed, act "Normal" when observed. Most of the time, they're not observed, and thus the unobserved functions are normal. Being as all our laws of physics, that explain how the universe came into it's present state just fine, are for when there's no observation on the quantum level, this universe could have easily been built without "observation" or "creation."

Take note how NO physicist believes this is an argument for any deities existence. It simply isn't.

~
And that's all if you take the 'observation influencing particle behaviour' inference out of the Double Slit experiment. We need more experiments, under different settings, and more information in general on quantum happenigs. Until then, the apparent conclusion of the experiment(Which does not in any way indicate a deities existance) must be taken with a large handful of salt.

~
Let's leave the scientific conclusion making to the actual Scientists who know what they're doing. Not to people who are desperately grasping at straws to make it appear science supports their religious ideologies.

Just curious, are there any experiments that prove matter changes when observed? I've read that that is highly theoretical, and isn't part of objective science, only mathematical theories in theoretical physics. Could you please clear that up for me? Am I misunderstanding? Thanks.

reply to post by LightSource


Some problems with your argument

1) The experiment holds true only to the quantum level.

2) This argument falls victim to INFINITE REGRESSION. If everything must be observed to exist than WHO IS OBSERVING GOD? And if you establish a greater being who is observing God then that being must be observed, and so on... If you make a rule that says that God does not need to be observed to exist then you may as well extend that characteristic to the Universe.

3) Your argument would demonstrate why God must exist for the Universe to exist but would not show that God created the Universe. Since observation does not require intervention God might merely have discovered the Universe hidden in a state similar to that of Schrodinger's Cat (juxtaposed between existence and non-existence).

Quantum weirdness is the source for a lot of the newer arguments from new agers, mystics, pseudoscientists and religious folks alike and it's easy to see why. At the quantum level normal logic and physics seem to break down, just another gap for folks to stick their gods, aliens, and reality matrix programmers, into

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by LightSource

 

Some problems with your argument

1) The experiment holds true only to the quantum level.

2) This argument falls victim to INFINITE REGRESSION. If everything must be observed to exist than WHO IS OBSERVING GOD? And if you establish a greater being who is observing God then that being must be observed, and so on... If you make a rule that says that God does not need to be observed to exist then you may as well extend that characteristic to the Universe.

3) Your argument would demonstrate why God must exist for the Universe to exist but would not show that God created the Universe. Since observation does not require intervention God might merely have discovered the Universe hidden in a state similar to that of Schrodinger's Cat (juxtaposed between existence and non-existence).

Quantum weirdness is the source for a lot of the newer arguments from new agers, mystics, pseudoscientists and religious folks alike and it's easy to see why. At the quantum level normal logic and physics seem to break down, just another gap for folks to stick their gods, aliens, and reality matrix programmers, into

edit on 17-5-2012 by Titen-Sxull because: (no reason given)

Ok so, I think the big problem people have is looking at "size". The sun is how many times bigger than our own earth? It would take over 1 million earths to fill the sun yet the matter acts like matter we can "observe". What about the largest sun in our galaxy? It would take 7 billion of our own suns to fill VY Canis Majoris (the largest star we know of) yet it still acts like "matter" we "observe". Now everything is made up of atoms yet parts of the atoms don't act like normal "matter" until it is "observed". Why does the atom not break apart? Is the nucleus of the atom "observing" the electrons? If earth just decided that it wasn't going to act like normal matter and change its position we would all be in a world of hurt yet... it doesn't. It has been "observed" just like our sun, all the planets, and all the galaxies and solar systems, they are and have been,"observed". "WHO" or "WHAT" "observed all of our matter.


www.physicsforums.com...

reply to post by LightSource

they are and have been,"observed". "WHO" or "WHAT" "observed all of our matter.

New planets and solar systems are being discovered all the time. Are you saying that they didn't exist before we observed them? Or that they existed in some quantum juxtaposition between being ordinary matter and something else? You see the experiment makes sense because of the particle-wave duality of what was being observed -photons. What holds true of photons does not necessarily hold true of all matter or energy or on all scales of matter/energy. If everything must be being observed at all times this means that when I leave one room in my house empty and go into another that everything in the empty room no longer exists? Or is somewhere between a wave and a particle?

Or is God observing everything in the Universe all at once? But if that were true the experiment WOULDN'T HAVE WORKED.

As I said even if I were to grant you the argument it still leaves you with the problem of infinite regression, who is observing God, and who is observing who is observing God, and so on.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by LightSource

 

they are and have been,"observed". "WHO" or "WHAT" "observed all of our matter.

New planets and solar systems are being discovered all the time. Are you saying that they didn't exist before we observed them? Or that they existed in some quantum juxtaposition between being ordinary matter and something else? You see the experiment makes sense because of the particle-wave duality of what was being observed -photons. What holds true of photons does not necessarily hold true of all matter or energy or on all scales of matter/energy. If everything must be being observed at all times this means that when I leave one room in my house empty and go into another that everything in the empty room no longer exists? Or is somewhere between a wave and a particle?

Or is God observing everything in the Universe all at once? But if that were true the experiment WOULDN'T HAVE WORKED.

As I said even if I were to grant you the argument it still leaves you with the problem of infinite regression, who is observing God, and who is observing who is observing God, and so on.

For all we know our universe could be the size of an atom, or the size of a basketball that can be looked in upon. Matter it seems (at least to me) does not "act" like the matter we know until it is "observed". I would say the first "observation" would have created the big bang at the very second of "knowing" which in my opinion would create an infinite regression of "awareness" or "observation". A "thought" created everything we see in the universe. Without "observation" there would be (again in my opinion) no "time". WIth no time, no universe. Time begins with "observation" just like the universe began with "observation".

Genesis also says that God looked upon his work, other words, God observed, he saw it, what he had done and only after this did he decide that it was good.

Observation determines the nature of anything; it seems that its required for anything to actually exist. the Creation was formless and empty...implying that no one had consciously observed or measured it.

its almost as if for anything to exist someone has to be there to see it. even then, i still believe that a tree that falls in the forest makes a sound whether or not anyone is there to hear it.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


To go a little further on infinite regression and the "observation" I think of creating a world within a video game lets say a MMORPG. It take programmers and game artists a very long time to create a world that we can all play within a game. The start of the game is when the game is powered up and players are allowed to enter that world and play as a character. Once turned on things start acting according to how they were programed but there was much more that happened before the world or game was actually created.

For the universe to be "observed" it doesn't have to be the "start" as in the start of a line. Why wouldn't the start actually be in the dead center or middle expanding in both directions to infinity. For instance when we are born we might have a starting point but it is actually in the middle of everything that leads up to you being able to "observe". "Let there be light" an infinite regression happens in both directions and is created at the same time going both forward and backwards in time. However without the "observation" none of that would be. Nothing in the past and nothing in the future its the "observation" that makes both possible.

reply to post by LightSource

NO! The Double Slit Experiment is using Light or PHOTONS...which as a particle of ENERGY and a Quantum Particle at that.

Matter is comprised of many things....particles of Mass...such as Protons and Neutrons. Matter also is comprised of Particle/Wave forms of Energy...Electrons. You really should read up on this but I will give a quick lesson.

After the Big Bang...close to 14 Billion Years ago....it took awhile for things to cool down enough to Create Celestial Bodies. Stars are Suns and Planets that orbit Stars do so as they have become caught up in a Stars Gravity Well which occurs whenever an object of Mass exists. The amount of Mass is derived from the total number of Protons and if an Atom has them...Neutrons are present. An Atom is an Element and the simplest form of Atoms or an Element is Hydrogen...represemted on the periodic table as H. Hydrogen has one Proton and One Electron. So since only Protons and Netrons determine Mass and it is called RELATIVE ATOMIC MASS BASED ON THE AVERAGE OF THE NUMBER OF ISOTOPES. So the Mass of Hydrogen is 1 and the Atomic Number is 1 since the Atomic Number is based on the quantity of Electrons an Atom has.

When enough Matter is concentrated by it's own Gravitational effect upon warping space an incorrect but easy to understand principle to ONLY REPRESENT...NOT ACTUALLY DESCRIBE WHAT IS HAPPENING TO SPACE/TIME when alot of matter and at the early stages after the Big Bang there was only Quantum Particles and Hydrogen....imagine placing a Bowling Ball in the Middle of a Bed Sheet that 4 people are holding taunt. The Bowling Ball bends the sheet around it to a greater extent the closer the are of the entire sheet is to the ball. This is like Gravity in that the Bowling Ball is the Hydrogen that Collected by Gravitational attraction between particles and collected to such an extent that it created a warping of space to such a degree that it condensed the Hydrogen and other Quantum Materials to such a point that the process of Thermonuclear Fusion Began and our Star was created. Fusion is the process by which Hydrogen or Molecular Elemental Groups of Hydrogen...Fused to become Helium and we all know what a H-Bomb is...now imagine one in such an immmense scale that it has enough Hydrogen to last Billions of Years before if fuses it all and at that point may become a Small Red Dwarf after expanding into a Red Giant which would be large enough to encompass a Diameter all the way out pass Mars. If it should go Supernova and small Suns like ours seldom do but if it did....it would explode and create an explosion so large that people who lived in a Neighboring Galaxy could observe it. All Heavt Elements are derived from Supernova Explosions so at first we get Hydrogen and Helium and a few other low mass elements...then Supernovas provide the Universe with Heavy Relative Atomic Mass Elements like Plutonium, Gold, Uranium...etc....so every Atom that comprises the Human Body is made from the STARS! Split Infinity

What is God?

"God is the Supreme Intelligence--First Cause of all things."

What is to be understood by infinity?

"That which has neither beginning nor end; the unknown: all that is unknown is infinite."

Can it be said that God is infinity?

"An incomplete definition. Poverty of human speech incompetent to define what transcends human intelligence."

God is infinite in His perfections, but "infinity" is an abstraction. To say that God is infinity is to substitute the attribute of a thing for the thing itself, and to define something unknown by reference to some other thing equally unknown.

What is to be thought of the opinion that attributes the first formation of things to a fortuitous combination of matter, in other words, to chance?

"Another absurdity! Who that is possessed of common sense can regard chance as an intelligent agent? And, besides, what is chance? Nothing."

The harmony which regulates the mechanism of the universe can only result from combinations adopted in view of predetermined ends, and thus, by its very nature, reveals the existence of an Intelligent Power. To attribute the first formation of things to chance is nonsense for chance cannot produce the results of intelligence. If chance could be intelligent, it would cease to be chance.


What proof have we that the first cause of all things is a Supreme Intelligence, superior to all other intelligences?

"You have a proverb which says, 'The workman is known by his work.' Look around you, and, from the quality of the work, infer that of the workman."

We judge of the power of an intelligence by its works as no human being could create that which is produced by nature, it is evident that the first cause must be an Intelligence superior to man. Whatever may be the prodigies accomplished by human intelligence, that intelligence itself must have a cause and the greater the results achieved by it, the greater must be the cause of which it is the effect. It is this Supreme Intelligence that is the first cause of all things, whatever the name by which mankind may designate it.

From Alan Kardec's Spirits book,