Turkish aircraft were involved in fighting Israel over the occupied

Originally posted by FailedProphet
Doesn't Israel have enough problems on its plate already without meddling in the business of Cyprus?

Cyprus? Really, Israel? What's the matter, screwing things up in Palestine/Lebanon/Syria not enough anymore?

Planet earth to Israel: Mind your own freaking business. Clean up your own self-created mess before sticking your hands in other pies.

edit on 5/20/2012 by FailedProphet because: (no reason given)

Israel is not meddling in Cyprus' business.
Israel & Cyprus have become allies. Partners in regards to energy developments in the Eastern Mediterranean.
If that isn't enough, then an Israeli company being involved in exploration in Cyprus, being threatened directly by Turkey, gives Israel every right to side with Cyprus.

The "mess" as you put it, is not created by Israel, nor Cyprus.
The "mess", is created by Turkey.
Because Turkey thinks it has a right to the resources of all it's neighbors.
Turkey thinks it can bully every neighbor.
Turkey has no respect for International Law.
Turkey does not even respect foreign nations air space or maritime boundaries.
Turkeys disregard of international laws and protocols puts civilian air traffic in danger because Turkey does not follow the law and protocols and submit flight plans to FIR authorities in foreign countries. It just sends its F16's to violate FIR's and national air space, flying at civilian air traffic altitudes.
There have been many incidents where near misses have occurred.
An aircraft carrying the Greek defence minister was nearly collided into by a Turkish F16.
An aircraft carrying American congressmen enroute to Cyprus, almost had a mid air colission with a Turkish F16.
Many civilian airliners have also nearly had collissions with Turkish F16's.
Why? because Turkey thinks it is in the wild west and can act like a thug.

Well those days are slowly coming to an end.
It is starting off with it being put in it's place in the eastern Med. regarding energy resources.
If Greek politicians can sort their economic & political # out, and work with Cyprus and Israel on these issues, then it's game over for Turkey. Turkey will either have to respect international laws and protocols and accept it can not bully its way into another countrys resources, or make a military move for those resources. At which point it will really be game over for them.

But Turkey will be in for a big surprise when it's first soldier puts his boot on foreign soil again in aggression.

I personally hope they try something dumb in the coming months while there is major instability in Greece politically.
Because if anything will unite the Greek people behind a real patriotic leader and galvanize their resolve, it will be a foreign aggressor attacking them.
This is what Greece needs. An external threat that they can see attacking them.

Not because I yearn for war and bloodshed, but because it will unite every Greek under one leader.
This political turmoil, this division which is hurting the country and Hellenism in general, will be buried for good.
Greece will rise again like it has many times throughout it's long history.

This thread has so much uhm , Turcophobia .

Turks meanwhile continue to live their lives in Greece and Cyprus , as usual .
Who now remembers the Turks of Crete , Samos , Cos , Rhodes ?
This anti-Turkism ideology is a no winner in the long run .
Turks do have a long coast on the Med and I am sure they will get their share of Med's resources .
Northern Cyprus is populated by Turks and they are not going anywhere soon , whether Hellens like it or not .
Turks would not attack Greece , that is the job of other some Balkan nations .

Greece will rise again ?

Since it's indepence from Ottoman Turks , the Greeks already have been saved by European powers on several occasions .

This time , Swabian house wife says " No " .



Greece will rise again ?

For sure , when it begins a sincere cooperation with Turks , of course Greece will be OK .

Ironic justice for all concerned , eh ?

Spot the Turk.

Btw, there is no Turkophobia here.
People are simply discussing ongoing developments.
I'm sorry if the discussion is not very flattering of Turkey. Don't get upset with anyone here, get upset with your Islamist government.


Sure, Turkey will get it's fare share of resources from the Mediterranean.
Whatever resources are located within Turkish territorial waters, belong to Turkey.
Whatever resources are located within Greek, or Cypriot, or Israeli territorial waters, belong to those respective countries.


This is the problem with your country.
It has the mentality of what's mine is mine, and whats yours should be mine too.

Well sorry, but things do not work that way. We are not in a primary school play ground with the teacher on duty not looking.


Can you dispute anything I've said? Of course you cant, because you know that everything I have said is a fact.
And anyone reading can also do a bit of research using Google, and see that what I am saying is 100% truthful and factual as well.

Therefore, rather then discuss the subject at hand, you decide to start playing the racist card. Turkophobia this Turkophobia that.

I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings, but there is no racism or Turkophobia. Just a discussion on ongoing developments.

If you want to participate with a valid contribution without your Turkish nationalistic propaganda and nonsense which belongs in certain other forums like waff, then by all means go ahead and surprise everyone with a valid, on topic contribution.

Originally posted by BLV12A

Spot the Turk.

see what I mean ?

Btw, there is no Turkophobia here.

It's in your bones , in your core being . Without the hatred of Turk I suspect your world would make less sense to even you .


People are simply discussing ongoing developments.

you seem to discuss a big bad Turk with a theatrical twist added to it .



I'm sorry if the discussion is not very flattering of Turkey. Don't get upset with anyone here, get upset with your Islamist government.

Greeks don't flatter Turks on anything , anywhere .
Please pull the other one !!!





Sure, Turkey will get it's fare share of resources from the Mediterranean.
Whatever resources are located within Turkish territorial waters, belong to Turkey.
Whatever resources are located within Greek, or Cypriot, or Israeli territorial waters, belong to those respective countries.


This is the problem with your country.
It has the mentality of what's mine is mine, and whats yours should be mine too.

Well sorry, but things do not work that way. We are not in a primary school play ground with the teacher on duty not looking.

If Turks get their fair share , there won't be a problem .


Can you dispute anything I've said? Of course you cant, because you know that everything I have said is a fact.
And anyone reading can also do a bit of research using Google, and see that what I am saying is 100% truthful and factual as well.

I would advice you to include the Turks view of how things are . Instead you are caricaturising the big bad Turk .Everything you have stated is disputable and is being disputed as we speak . Better get off that high horse of yours and find out why Turks disputes what you are claiming to be yours .


Therefore, rather then discuss the subject at hand, you decide to start playing the racist card. Turkophobia this Turkophobia that.

Are you telling me that you don't hate the big bad Turk that always comes around and destroy some Hellenistic dream ?

Please , perhaps you don't get it but your bias is actually showing .



I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings, but there is no racism or Turkophobia. Just a discussion on ongoing developments.

You have not hurt my feelings but reassured me of what I already know ; " Greeks and Cypriots like to think that all the problems they have comes from the existence of Turks" .
I wish this was not the case but there you have it .


If you want to participate with a valid contribution without your Turkish nationalistic propaganda and nonsense which belongs in certain other forums like waff, then by all means go ahead and surprise everyone with a valid, on topic contribution.

Funny you should say all this about nationalism while you are actually echoing Hellenistic ideals .

You do realise that Helenistic ideology actually supports the ethnic cleansing of Turks , right ?

This is what your valid contribution in this thread says : BIG BAD TURK .

Hath not a Turk eyes?
Hath not a Turk hands,organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same
food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases,
heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter
and summer, as a Christian is?

If you prick us, do we not bleed?
Ifyou tickle us, do we not laugh?
If you poison us, do we not die?
And if you wrong us, do we not revenge?
If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that.

What a load of nonsense.

Hellenic ideals do not talk about ethnic cleansing Turks.
Wow, is that what they teach you in Turkish schools? Amazing.

I'll give you a hint...Ancient Greeks, where Hellenic ideals come from, in particular Alexander the Great, considered anyone who was a good person, as Hellenic, ie a humane person. And anyone, including a Greek, who were a bad person, as barbarians.
They distinguished between good and bad.
Not between ethnicity.
Greeks, like any normal people, do not care if you are Turk or Greek or whatever.
What people judge you on, is what sort of a person you are.
Here, we are not talking about Turkish people. We are talking about geopolitical developments and the actions of governments.

You need to learn to differentiate between the two discussions and stop being so sensitive and taking every comment as an assault on your Turkishness.


Wow, you bleed? Really?
Congratulations to you.
I'm happy you discovered you Turks are just like the rest of the human species on this planet.

Maybe now you can elect leaders who will treat their neighbors, fellow humans, with respect and respect the laws that the international community has agreed to, accepted, and implemented.

Slightly back on topic after the ridiculous distraction and derailing of the thread by the troll above..

The US Senate is likely to ratify UNCLOS.
That's very very bad news for Turkeys interests, and a further sign the US is silently backing Israel & it's new found friends in the Eastern Mediterranean.
Although apparently the official line is something to do with the US not being hypocritical.

Turks are not as bad as you paint them and Greeks are not as angelic as you want them to be .

The truth is somewhere in between as usual .

Alexander the Great was another era , another age . Today's Greeks have nothing to do with those ancient usurpers .

Med's resources will have to be shared equally . Turks and Arabs ought to get their own fair shares and there will be no trouble in the eastern Med .

Jews and Greeks can also have their fair share too .

reply to post by deckdel


No the Israeli planes were in Cyprus air space that is recognized to be owned by Cyprus and Greece. The Turkish claim is not recognized by anyone.

I strongly doubt the Turks were able to chase off any Israeli fighters in an airspace that is internationally recognized to be NOT Turkish.

The Greeks and the Turks play mock dogfights all the time over Cyprus. The Israelis wont be pushed around by anyone. This is just normal Arab propaganda. 20 says the Israelis were traveling home anyway and some Turks were in the area to make this ridiculous claim.

Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge
reply to post by deckdel

 

No the Israeli planes were in Cyprus air space that is recognized to be owned by Cyprus and Greece. The Turkish claim is not recognized by anyone.

I strongly doubt the Turks were able to chase off any Israeli fighters in an airspace that is internationally recognized to be NOT Turkish.

The Greeks and the Turks play mock dogfights all the time over Cyprus. The Israelis wont be pushed around by anyone. This is just normal Arab propaganda. 20 says the Israelis were traveling home anyway and some Turks were in the area to make this ridiculous claim.

While I cant comment on who chased off who, I can correct a few errors in your post.

Cypriot air space is Cypriot air space. It is not 'owned' or controlled by Greece.
Cyprus has it's own FIR, the Nicosia FIR.
Just like Greece has it's, the Athens FIR.

The airspace of both countries does not merge into one, nor do the FIR's.
But having said that, Cyprus would never refuse the Hellenic Air Force entry into it's FIR or national airspace.

An FIR btw is different to national airspace. FIR stands for Flight Information Region. Although it includes a nations airspace, it extends beyond it.
All airspace is divided into FIR's. Each FIR has it's own 'administrator' kind of thing. Anyway, look it up if you want to know more.


If Israeli fighters were over Cyprus, they were there with the permission of Cyprus. Therefore they were legally there.

If Turkish fighters were over Cyprus, they were there illegally.
First, if they were over the north of the island that Turkey occupies, they were there illegally because the occupation is illegal according to International Law and recognised as such by the UN and the world.
Second, if they were over the Free part of Cyprus, then they were there illegally because Cyprus would not and does not give Turkish fighter jets permission to enter it's air space.
Third, if they were over the Free part of Cyprus, then they were there illegally because Turkey does not submit flight plans to the Nicosia FIR authorities, and routinely violates Cypriot airspace and the Nicosia FIR. The same thing occurs in the Aegean with Greece's airspace and the Athens FIR.

So regardless of what part of Cyprus or surrounding airspace this incident occurred, what we are able to confirm for our selves is that the Turkish jets were in that airspace illegally one way or the other.
And that the Israeli aircraft, would have been there with the permission of the Cypriot authorities.
Israel would have submitted flight plans to the Nicosia FIR authorities and they would have granted them permission.


Finally, Greece and Turkey do not play mock dog fights in Cypriot air space.
All the incidents with Greece and Turkey occur in Greek airspace and the Athens FIR in the Aegean Sea.
Specifically in areas where there are known deposits of natural gas and oil an rare earth minerals awaiting further exploration to determine the extent of the deposits. Turkey tries to challenge Greek sovereignty over those areas, because it claims those areas.

Turkey is trying to do a similar thing now with the Eastern Mediterranean.
However they have no come up against a crap government like many past governments in Greece, but up against a 'take no sh** from anyone' government in Israel.

reply to post by BLV12A


Just to add that Cyprus has protested in the past about Turkish incursions into their national airspace.

These are the games that are played out between Greece and Turkey, with Cyprus in the middle. One sticking point of Turkish membership of the EU is that they sort out their Cyprus hangover, something they seem unable to bring themselves to do.

The Israeli angle is just a smokescreen.

Anyway, here's the proof...

www.mfa.gov.cy...

Regards

Just to clear up this thread


It was two f-16 Sufa, they were in the FIR of Cyprus and were given clear flight paths. They were in a flight pattern that was between Cyprus and the Libyan coast. There was another two Israeli f-16 sufa armed and at an undisclosed altitude but within striking range if the need arose. The Turkish fighters kept their distance at about 15 miles from the Israeli jets and engaged the Israeli jets with electronic warfare. So there wasn't any dog fight other than the normal electronic warfare. The Israeli jets were fully armed possibly with python's and as always, yes they were hot and would not hesitate to use all means possible to defend themselves as they were given the green light from Cyprus. The reason for their flight path is obvious to who ever is following the recent turn of events between Cyprus - Israel and Greece.

However, the Turkish minster of defense has put out a false claim that Israeli F-15's had illegally entered Turkish airspace over Cyprus. So i guess one should email them a fail tube and perhaps a quick geography lesson regarding borders and a course on how to be civilized.