Lloyd Tanner Friction boiler

So I did an ATS search and there seems to be no threads on this interesting and potentially game changing technology.

What it is: The friction boiler is quite simply a system designed with a vertical or horizontal roller which you place Green hardwood 4x4's against and use a weight to hold the 4x4's into the roller. This creates friction from the points of contact, the friction creates heat (lots of it). Now you can use this heat to do work by creating a boiler which you place over the roller assembly. The boiler then powers a steam turbine of the tesla turbine variety in our preferred embodiment. Once the turbine is up to speed you use the output from the turbine to run the friction roller and to generate power. In addition to power though you will also wind up with enough heat to heat a decent sized home if it's done correctly.

Lloyd Tanner friction boiler diagram of operation

Now to be very clear up front this is NOT an overunity device as it uses wood as a fuel. Now on the plus side this uses wood very very efficiently. According to the inventor 2 4x4's will last about 3 days. I'm not 100% certain if he is talking about the 2 foot sections he uses to power the stove or the whole 8 foot 4x4 But either way this generates substantially more heat with substantially less wood than any other method.

According to some calculations done by members at another forum the basic model that uses 2 4x4's at a time and can get up to 565 degrees f. The steam volume created by this 2 piece system is enough to run a 3 horsepower steam engine with some steam in reserve. Considering it takes about 1/2 horsepower to run the roller that creates the friction this gives you 2.5 horsepower to dedicate to other things. at .746 kilowatts to a horsepower that means that this generator system would be capable of producing 1.865 kilowatts. Now you'd still have to factor out some power to run pumps and etc on the machine so lets just call it one kilowatt of output every hour the system is in operation. If you were to run the system 24/7 this would pencil out to 720 kilowatts a month which should in theory be enough to power your house minus any electric heating costs. (remember this puts out heat too so your heating cost should drop as well)

I want to take this opportunity right here to point out that 1 kilowatt however would NOT be enough for you to run everything all at once. So you'd either have to still have a grid tie or a battery bank to charge up so you could draw more power at one time when needed. What this would allow you to do if properly configured and setup is to sell power back to the electric company a good portion of the time and drop your bill to virtually nothing. ALl for the cost of the system and 2 chunks of green wood every couple days.

Some of you will say this system is impossible or cannot work. BUt the truth is it does work you can even watch a video on Lloyd Tanner's site of the system creating steam.

This is just a preliminary post to make people aware of the design and gauge the level of interest here on ATS for this unique and potentially game changing technology.

Here are some links for those interested in the system including a 16 page thread with basically everything you'd need to create a replication of this system.SUper thread @ energeticforum about the friction boiler with tons of info for a replication

In subsequent posts I will be going into more detail about the system and how I think it would be best setup to produce not just power but also heat for your home and maybe hot water too.

Thanks for the contribution. It only proves mankind had NEVER run out of ideas on how to generate power.

For example, look towards gyms. If those energies exerted by humans can be harnessed, when totally combined with every gym within a State, there would be enough electricity to power up part of mankind's insatiabble energy needs.

We mankind have the ideas to generate power. I believe that the next stage of critical energy evolution lays in STORAGE - how to store up energy created without it dissapating over time, such as our sun's energy, disappearing upon night - the means and the sources, as well as general acceptance by the public as a truly viable alternative form of energy.

reply to post by roguetechie


That is pretty clever! Sometimes the simplest ideas produce the greatest results. It could be refined and it could be made into a commercial product. Personally I would step it up a notch or two and make 5kw/hr. That way you see a reasonable return from your NET meter and it does supply you with steam to heat your house, rather than electricity. If you did this and used a gas stove (propane) and steam exchange clothes dryer (would have to be designed), you would have a very good solution. If you didn't want a NET meter, you could live off the grid quite comfortably.

Cheers - Dave

In Japan, there had been theoratical experiments on harnessing solar energy to meet its energy needs by sending ' space satellites receivers' to beam and magnify the sun's heat to Japan ground stations.

Unfortunately, mankind's tech in energy storage is pretty limited. As the night drags on, power is lost.

However, if nations can share, through cabling, the sun's energy may meet all planet Earth's needs. Half the planet is night while the other half faces the sun for 12 hrs. Thus, through sharing of cables to supply energy, those on the night phase will receive solar energy from the other half that faces the sun, and vice versa, a continous form of energy to meet needs, while mankind grapple with better ideas on storage of energy without loss.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
In Japan, there had been theoratical experiments on harnessing solar energy to meet its energy needs by sending ' space satellites receivers' to beam and magnify the sun's heat to Japan ground stations.

Unfortunately, mankind's tech in energy storage is pretty limited. As the night drags on, power is lost.

However, if nations can share, through cabling, the sun's energy may meet all planet Earth's needs. Half the planet is night while the other half faces the sun for 12 hrs. Thus, through sharing of cables to supply energy, those on the night phase will receive solar energy from the other half that faces the sun, and vice versa, a continous form of energy to meet needs, while mankind grapple with better ideas on storage of energy without loss.

Ummm, yeah, not going to work well or have a happy ending. Boeing and Lockheed Martin both looked at this for the US back in the 80's. The big problem is that with a huge input in energy that would not normally come down to earth, they would end up raising the average temperature of the earth about a half a degree a year and that was just powering the US this way.

Not a good idea!

Cheers - Dave

While I also have thought about solar... and I may be making a thread very shortly about concentrated solar using autoparts and basic tools, I think this idea has it's merits as well. I mean come on can you imagine providing most of your power needs with say 4 2 foot long 4x4's of green hardwood a day? That's pretty damn efficient if you ask me and definitely deserves to be explored!

Personally my idea goes something like this:
Daytime: Concentrated solar array using sun tracking parabolic troughs or dishes to create steam which then runs tesla turbines and maybe a couple nitinol motors to soak up the waste heat left over after the steam loses pressure but before the heat exchangers ( car radiators repurposed)

Night time and cloudy or rainy days: Lloyd tanner boiler system also using tesla turbines and maybe nitinol motors to harvest as much power from the steam as possible as well as tesla air pumps to run through heat ducts to warm the house on cold days. Or maybe a separate tanner boiler system specifically for heating we'd have to see how much power could be extracted and still leave us with useable heat.

Now the trick here would be to somehow have a single group of turbines for running both systems somehow. that way you'd only have the expensive of setting up one generation system. But hey with as little power as I currently use and as intermittent as the sun is here in the pacific Northwest I might be better off sticking with tanner boilers.

The part that really makes me smile about this whole system is it uses a phenomena that we ordinarily try our best to eliminate from normal systems to generate it's power. I mean friction is the utlimate bugaboo when designing mechanical devices and that's what powers the heart of this device.

The other part that makes me smile is the utter simplicity of this system. Even a backyard tinkerer like me can put one together with the right parts and a bit of money!

This device has been out since 2008 and has never made it to ATS to be discussed so I put together a thread on it for you guys. I think it has the potential to help lots of people out.

Explanation: S&F!

1stly ... my search terms returned this find ...

Friction Heater [blfdesigns.com]

Where this vid from youtube was embedded ...



And its quite clear the machine is super freaking simple!

But how to make it more simple?

I propose using old metal drum toploader washing machines in this fashion ...



And I also believe that old dryers [which come standard with a metal drum] and frontloaders may also be converted into a friction boiler.

Personal Disclosure: I hope this helps spark interest and discussion in this important subject!

While a cool idea, where it falls short for me is the need for an induction motor or other device for powering the "roller." What is the net gain of power (what you get from the boiler minus the power used by the engine turning the cylinder)? Is the added complexity worth it, or is just simply burning the wood better? I'd like to see some hard experimental data detailing the energy output and efficiency comparison instead of theoreticals. I'm skeptical, but rooting for these alternative devices.

BIll in later revisions LLoyd is running the roller off of steam pressure the boiler generates. I have done the back of the envelope calculations and it generates enough steam to power at the very least a 2.6 horsepower turbine. What this means in a practical sense is that if you wanted to you could turn the entire 2.6 horsepower into electricity which would be 745 watts times 2.6 and get roughly 1800 watts and change of which you'd only need about 370 watts to power the induction motor which is running at half capacity. This gives you around 1400 watts to put to another use. And that's if you do a bog standard turbine installation.

If you want to get fancy and use a pump to generate vacuum off the exhaust line of the turbine and you could generate up to 6 horsepower of which you'd probably have to give one back to power the pump and we'll call it another horsepower to power everything else on the device. This option still leaves you with 4 horsepower to do with as you will. Four horsepower breaks down into 2682 watts after generator losses... figure in another 682 watts to other inefficiencies and you've still got 2 Full KILOWATTS of power that can be on 24/7 365.

To give you an idea that 2 kilowatts is like having 6 kilowatts of solar power installed. (figuring solar power generates power for an average of 8 hours a day 365 days a year which is optimistic in the extreme). Now that 6 kilowatts of solar power would cost you at the very least 18,500 dollars according to Nova. Solar cost for 6 kw system

You want to know how much I have budgeted to do my lloyd tanner boiler build?
4 thousand dollars!
And thats what it'll cost me with buying half the tools as I go. Oh and btw you can only get 6 kw of solar for that price if you get a substantial government rebate which they may or may not be offering anymore and other tax incentives the sticker price is 36 thousand dollars. ANd I"m not even sure if that covers the battery banks you'd need to provide for night time power.

ANyway not to beat a dead horse but WHEN I get my system working I"ll have saved myself better than 14 thousand dollars by a conservative estimate and will have a system that takes up a little more room than a set of side by side washer's and dryers.

reply to post by roguetechie


Hey, thanks for the info. I can understand the potential this device has, especially if you could apply the principle to other engines. The dissipative nature of the friction force is a problem for every machine, and to find a way to harness that lost energy in a useful way would be huge (stating the obvious). Once you have yours up and running, please post the specs, build cost, and actual power output you're getting from it. This has peaked my interest.

Just for clarification, I'm a skeptic in the "open-minded let the evidence speak for itself" rather than the "automatically deny it" sense.

WIld Bill,

That is my intention. I intend to fully document the build as it goes along. This is going to be a long term project though since I am a college student and don't have lots of money to throw at it.

I have decided to use an old washing machine as the base of the build to save money and time. Myself and OmegaLogos believe that by using a washing machine casing we can also possibly eke out a bit more energy from the process by having the washer lid over the top of the boiler and roller assembly. We plan to replace the agitator in the washer with the roller and to disable the spin cycle feature that spins the entire clothing drum. I will be leaving the clothing drum semi intact to help carry the load of the wood trays of which I'm thinking we'll have 4 in a cross pattern instead of just 2 depending on the pressure and temperature of steam that 2 pieces of wood create.

The idea is to make this build as modular and easy as possible so that others can replicate it at will to help improve their living situations. My goal is to spend no more than 4 thousand dollars on the project from start to finish and to have a generation capacity in the one to two kilowatt range. If I can successfully do this I will have blown solar clean out of the water price point wise. Since a 2 kilowatt wood boiler system able to run 24/7 would be the equivalent of nearly 6 kilowatts of solar that can run at best 8 to 10 hours a day and costs around 36 thousand dollars. And the follow on fuel costs for this device would be miniscule considering the inventor of the system says 2 18 inch pieces of wood can last up to 3 days. I conservatively estimate that a piece of wood will last one day not 3 which means I have to come up with we'll call it 64 18 inch green hardwood 4x4's a month. Even at retail price that shouldn't be all that bad considering they sell them in 8 foot lengths so each 8 footer would make 5 or so pieces.

I am also considering starting my own Youtube Channel to chronicle the Build and maybe help defray some of the costs of building the machine.

I just wanted to let people know that I have contacted LLoyd Tanner himself and asked him several questions about his design. He very kindly and graciously responded in a very quick time period with incredibly well thought out responses.

Below is some excerpts from our Email conversation:

Thank you for your email. You can design this unit any way you want to as long as it works. Here are the answers to your questions:
1. I made the original pressure vessel out of 1/4" steel but I highly recommend doing it round like a piece of big pipe with beveled ends because of the pressure.

2. In my unit which is small, I have a water bar inside the pressure vessel and it drips 3 1/2 teaspoons. I call this a drip pressure vessel because the drop of water falls to the hot floor of the pressure vessel and immediately turns to steam just like a drop of water falling on a hot skillet.

3. My unit produces 750 degrees and produces 350 lbs. of pressure but, of course, you can build it as big as you want. You can go to my website www.frictionboiler.com and you will see all of my drawings and sketches.
I hope that this information is helpful. Please keep me posted on your progress.

Your first question regarding the gasket on top of the steam boiler - no, I do not use a gasket because as in your second question - yes, it is welded on.

Your 3rd question - no. In my unit, I drilled 3 3/8" holes in the pipe and outside of the pressure vessel there are two valves - one a regulator valve and I can control the flow of water like adjusting a carburetor and the other is an on and off valve. Once I set the regulator valve, I don't have to touch it again unless I want to make more steam.

Your next question, no, you must pressurize the pressure vessel, the water reservoir and the water hopper. To get water in the hopper, you must depressurize the hopper leaving the water reservoir and pressure vessel still pressurized. When the water hopper is filled, it will automatically repressurize. Please refer to my drawings which will show this.

As you can see from these two Emails he is very kind and more than willing to help anyone willing to give it a go at making one of their own. This is a huge contrast to most FE or alt energy inventors who, if they'll answer questions at all, do it in a vague and or unhelpful way.

I am very impressed with LLoyd as a person and even more impressed with his invention. I will keep posting in this thread as I progress in my research and construction. I sincerely hope that I can generate enough interest to get a few more people out there to attempt a replication.

Great idea, I cannot wait to see your results. Good luck, I surely hope it works.
brice

Thank you for the Kind words. I have ordered my turbine plans today and I'm currently scouting for a washing machine to use as the base for the setup. I'm hoping to find one with as high of a horsepower motor as possible. Then it's just a matter of getting it to my place since I don't have a vehicle. Still if I can achieve the steam pressure temperature and volume's LLoyd himself is getting I'll be more than happy.

In addition to this I still need to find a steady source of green hardwoods to feed the beast once it's up and running. This is definitely going to be a Long term project so keep your eyes on this thread.

One of the things I like most about this project is it gives me a chance to showcase the utterly amazing tesla turbine in a way that I hope will generate more interest in the design. I think and hope it will since This Friction Boiler literally could not use a conventional steam engine or turbine and still work without very expensive steam drying equipment. Hopefully this will make people see what an amazing invention it truly is, and hopefully this will inspire some more research and construction of these turbines with modern materials and techniques in sizes suitable for home cogeneration and experimentation. (Frank Germano already makes high end turbines with space age materials but he starts at 100 kilowatts and up which prices it out of the market of the home user.

This looks very promising. And inexpensive, from 200 dollars a month to 30.


Running my friction heater in my house

Here is a discussion, www.overunity.com...


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