Something truly wondrous is going on.

reply to post by mbkennel

reply to post by Maslo


I think the materialist monists need to aquaint themselves with Wheeler's delayed choice experiment, which upholds the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM, the "difficulties" of which are satisfactorily resolved (the moon is still there when we're not looking at it) only by positing a monistic idealist framework (consciousness, not matter is primary). This reminds me of Descarte's proof of God which suggests that the objective reality of anything must be held within a mind.

If you wish to argue against this, you are forced to argue that the human being, as a free will causal agent, is nothing but a "thing" or an "it", or, if you're willing to admit that there is a certain qualia of personal experience which we enjoy as free will causal agents ie: a person, then you must, to uphold the materialist position, argue against free will, as the freedom to choose and opt instead for a superdeterministic outcome ie: no other choice than the one taken was possible, which denies the existence of the probability wave in the first place, and raises even more difficult paradoxes.


From what I've been able to gather, there are only three possible interpretations or outcomes from QM

1) Superdeterminism

2) Multiworlds Theory - everything splits off in every direction including the choice that ISN'T made.

3) Transluminal Connectedness - all is one, within one field of consciousness (monistic idealism) including both observer and the observed.

If we rule out 1) based on free will, as the freedom to choose what and how to measure, and 2) on the basis that it's absurd that everything that wasn't chosen must manifest itself, then we are left with # 3.


"To be is to be percieved."

This is the rational and logical conclusion that must be drawn, which the OP seems to grasp in saying that "Something truly wondrous is going on."

For me, the joy of inclusion within this framework, is astounding, and evokes in me a sense of profound gratitude and of a type of "homecoming", part of the universal heavenly family if you will by the sheer fact that "I thnk (and feel) therefore I am", but do not exist within the sphere of isolate consciousness which is what you end up with with materialist monism ie: imprisoned within a subjective isoloation chamber limited exclusively to the scull absent the possibility of authentic freedom, the only escape from which is death as an eternal oblivion.


Best Regards,

NAM

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I think the materialist monists need to aquaint themselves with Wheeler's delayed choice experiment, which upholds the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM, the "difficulties" of which are resolved only by positing a monistic idealist framework (consciousness, not matter is primary).

Nope, interpretations are called interpretations because no experiment can differentiate between them, not even delayed choice ones. Delayed choice experiment does not support Copenhagen interpretation more than it supports Many Worlds, De Broglie-Bohm, Transactional interpretation or others.

Besides, Copenhagen interpretation does not ascribe unique role to the conscious observer. You are thinking of "consciousness causes collapse", or Many Minds interpretation.

If you wish to argue against this, you are forced to argue that the human being, as a free will causal agent, is nothing but a "thing" or an "it"

Yes, why not? Thats essentially materialim - we are not intristically different from dead unsentient matter, its only the organisation of this matter in brains which results in sentience, or consciousness.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

From what I've been able to gather, there are only three possible interpretations or outcomes from QM

There are more possibilities:
Interpretations of QM - comparison

reply to post by Maslo

A mere thing set apart in isolate consciousness, an "it", do you really think so? And who is the you that stands apart from yourself and says you are just an it?

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Foxy1
the only reason the slits were used and change anything is to make a pattern on a blank wall. if you didnt have slits it would just splatter randomly on the wall while even using the measuring device. and you woulndt have much of an experiment at all just a random mess on a wall.

If the photons can be aimed to go through the slits, why can't they be aimed at a certain place on the wall?

its better just to show you visually than explain to you...look at this video...a common laser light is shining through 3 pencil leads. 3 pencils leads equals 2 slits. before he holds the pencil leads up to the laser...you can clearly see the laser aiming at the wall like you just like you suggested.

in the video I just put up the photons are in fact randomly hitting the wall but photons are so small we just see a laser dot.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by cointelprotroll

 

.....I await the day that science and God come to terms with one another, and spirituality and science become one. Because they actually are...we just haven't discovered it yet.

edit on CTuesdayam070725f25America/Chicago15 by Starchild23 because: (no reason given)

Well said!

Originally posted by mbkennel

I'm happy to assume that something like the interaction of atoms with the background electromagnetic heat bath of the Universe is perfectly acceptable mechanism for quantum mechanical dynamics to quickly evolve to eigenstates of certain physical systems ('collapse') using nothing but regular QM.

So...consciousness is nothing more than a by-product of the universe and not an intrinsic working part?

Isn't that sort of like saying a car would get to it's destination without a driver, because the heat in it's engine is calculable and the dynamics involved in the transition can be measured and thereby proved?

What about the driver?
How do you calculate intent or reason?
What is the structure of Desire?

The realm of conscious thought is not altogether linear or measurable, and yet is a force that can change the variables of matter...can it not?

How do you calculate the unyielding will of Love?
How do you quantify the destructive power of Rage?
Show me a cup or observable measure of Joy?

And yet these are things that can change much in the physical world...

...there is something else there, even if you cannot put a formula to it...