Brace, brace. Dark times ahead as Greece heads for the exit

''They believe they can have their cake and eat it too'' Could you kindly tell us what the ''cake'' is?

reply to post by JustEve


Greece has the LOWEST early retirement age of any country in the EU. Greeks can retire early at 55 years of age. If that isn't cake, I don't know what is.
That single factor contributes to the vast economic problems in Greece, more than any other.

Take a look at this link, and even you should be able to see the problem:
en.wikipedia.org...
Just compare Greece to Germany. I don't blame Germans for being upset.

Country Early retirement age Normal retirement age Employed, 55–59
Germany.............. 65.............................. 67..............................................64%
Greece.................55.............................. 65..............................................31%

In fact, if you actually take the time to look at the entire chart, no other country in the EU comes close to the problem Greece has with early retirement.
You can't have only 31% of the people working, paying for 69% that have retired. Simple Math. You don't have to live in Greece to see the problem.
Wake up and smell the roses!

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

''They believe they can have their cake and eat it too'' Could you kindly tell us what the ''cake'' is?

reply to post by JustEve

 

Greece has the LOWEST early retirement age of any country in the EU. Greeks can retire early at 55 years of age. If that isn't cake, I don't know what is.
That single factor contributes to the vast economic problems in Greece, more than any other.

Take a look at this link, and even you should be able to see the problem:
en.wikipedia.org...
Just compare Greece to Germany. I don't blame Germans for being upset.

Country Early retirement age Normal retirement age Employed, 55–59
Germany.............. 65.............................. 67..............................................64%
Greece.................55.............................. 65..............................................31%

In fact, if you actually take the time to look at the entire chart, no other country in the EU comes close to the problem Greece has with early retirement.
You can't have only 31% of the people working, paying for 69% that have retired. Simple Math. You don't have to live in Greece to see the problem.
Wake up and smell the roses!

You seem to be forgetting other facts however...
eblanademocraticmove.blogspot.com...
www.guardian.co.uk...



And : '' For what it’s worth, the average Greek retirement age is nearly 65. Some Greeks that I know who take up their retirement funds early, usually receive between 200 and 600 per month. At that point, sitting on your ass is not even an option. These people have to immediately find employment elsewhere, usually more than one job. After the first round of cuts last year, a high school teacher now earns an average of 800 euros per month. 500 euros of this goes to rent and other fixed costs. You’re left with 300 euros to live off. As a teacher, you simply can’t start a family. And what do you do if you’re a kindergarten teacher or a hostess with a salary of 650 euros per month? A Greek widow (my 94-year old neighbor on Hydra) lives off 400 euros a month. That’s not even enough for her diapers and medicine. She manages to pull through under appalling conditions thanks to her family and neighbors. I don’t know any Dutch person working three jobs to make ends meet, but I do know dozens of Greeks who work three jobs just to survive. Yes, there are Greeks benefiting from high and early retirement. They are an exception, not the rule. By the way: on Hydra, there’s a retired Dutch teacher, a carefree baby boomer, who retired at her fiftieth, never having to work again and enjoying Greece for the rest of her life without any financial worries. Not a single Greek colleague of hers could do that.'' roarmag.org...





SOOOOOO you really have to LIVE in Greece to fully comprehend what REAL life is like there.

Greece Dropping out was ALWAYS the end idea.

What people need to be focusing on, is where all the money that the nations gave to Greece to save itself went.

Who's account did it end up in? What persons bottom line was dramatically increased?

It seems Greece , the IMF and the US suckered the world into depositing 'savior' money into Greece with no actual expectation it would work.

someone got rich.!

the average Greek retirement age is nearly 65.

reply to post by JustEve


Since the FACTS state that only 31% are still working at the 55-59 year old range, and only 18% after age 60, your statement is nothing more than your opinion, which is not supported by the facts.
If people took a second job after retiring, they would be included in the % still working.
I don't have to live in Greece to read facts, but obviously living in Greece gives you the right to ignore the facts,
Greeks will continue to ignore the facts, until you are all unemployed. Companies will just move out of Greece. You are typical of what the problem in Greece is, namely denial. Sorry to be so blunt, but since you fail to accept facts, you and Greece will continue on the downward spiral until there is no Greece left, and other countries will eventually pick up the pieces. Hope you speak Russian or Chinese.
If it is any consolation, the US is in the same state of denial, and headed in the same direction, only several years behind Greece.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

the average Greek retirement age is nearly 65.

reply to post by JustEve

 

Since the FACTS state that only 31% are still working at the 55-59 year old range, and only 18% after age 60, your statement is nothing more than your opinion, which is not supported by the facts.
If people took a second job after retiring, they would be included in the % still working.
I don't have to live in Greece to read facts, but obviously living in Greece gives you the right to ignore the facts,
Greeks will continue to ignore the facts, until you are all unemployed. Companies will just move out of Greece. You are typical of what the problem in Greece is, namely denial. Sorry to be so blunt, but since you fail to accept facts, you and Greece will continue on the downward spiral until there is no Greece left, and other countries will eventually pick up the pieces. Hope you speak Russian or Chinese.
If it is any consolation, the US is in the same state of denial, and headed in the same direction, only several years behind Greece.

You don't know me personally mate, do you? When did I deny the fact that Greeks retire at an earlier age? Why the hostile tone on your part?

''If people took a second job after retiring, they would be included in the % still working.''

IF you actually lived in Greece you would KNOW that people who get a second and third job get no insurance, meaning that there is no official record of the fact. Is that clear?

Oh just get on with the Big Fat Greek Shedding.

Merkel doesn't even have power she wielded on Saturday. She'll have to back down from some of the austerity measures.

Despite being poor, the Greek government has for decades sought to be generous to its people. Historians point to the war-torn decades, including a civil conflict after the Second World War that wiped out 10pc of the population followed by bloody clashes between Cyprus and Turkey in 1974: the Greek state has tried to soothe its people by creating a big welfare state and generous pay and pensions - including low retirement age and the famous 13th and 14th monthly salaries.

When it came to joining the euro in 2001, it should have been obvious that Greece did not meet the debt conditions. But, by spinning the numbers, Greece gained entry, not just to the single market but to debt markets that allowed it to borrow as though it was as dependable as Germany.

Greece went on a spending spree on infrastructure, services and public sector wages. Meanwhile, the Greeks stopped paying taxes. To Athens’ delight, banks and the financial markets filled the gap by lending billions of euros. With the onslaught of the credit crunch, Greece’s vast debts were exposed - but so was the exposure of European banks. If Greece went bust, untold damage could be unleashed across Europe and beyond: for a global economy still shattered from the 2008 banking crisis, the prospect of another one was intolerable.

reply to post by JustEve

www.telegraph.co.uk...
Read this, and then tell me this was not caused by the Greeks who "wanted their cake and actually ate it". Ever hear the fable of the grasshopper and the ant? It applies.
Why do you continue to deny the obvious?
Furthermore, I don't need to know you to understand that the Greeks lived the party life, and now must pay the pauper. It's called "Failure to be responsible, and expecting others(other EU nations) to pay for their partying".
Feel free to respond, but I won't bother answering anymore, since you don't seem to want to face FACTS>

Well they have failed to form a coalition, they will now hold new elections

so they are definately out of the eurozone eitherway

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

Despite being poor, the Greek government has for decades sought to be generous to its people. Historians point to the war-torn decades, including a civil conflict after the Second World War that wiped out 10pc of the population followed by bloody clashes between Cyprus and Turkey in 1974: the Greek state has tried to soothe its people by creating a big welfare state and generous pay and pensions - including low retirement age and the famous 13th and 14th monthly salaries.

When it came to joining the euro in 2001, it should have been obvious that Greece did not meet the debt conditions. But, by spinning the numbers, Greece gained entry, not just to the single market but to debt markets that allowed it to borrow as though it was as dependable as Germany.

Greece went on a spending spree on infrastructure, services and public sector wages. Meanwhile, the Greeks stopped paying taxes. To Athens’ delight, banks and the financial markets filled the gap by lending billions of euros. With the onslaught of the credit crunch, Greece’s vast debts were exposed - but so was the exposure of European banks. If Greece went bust, untold damage could be unleashed across Europe and beyond: for a global economy still shattered from the 2008 banking crisis, the prospect of another one was intolerable.

reply to post by JustEve

 

www.telegraph.co.uk...
Read this, and then tell me this was not caused by the Greeks who "wanted their cake and actually ate it". Ever hear the fable of the grasshopper and the ant? It applies.
Why do you continue to deny the obvious?
Furthermore, I don't need to know you to understand that the Greeks lived the party life, and now must pay the pauper. It's called "Failure to be responsible, and expecting others(other EU nations) to pay for their partying".
Feel free to respond, but I won't bother answering anymore, since you don't seem to want to face FACTS>

I do feel free to respond, thank you for your kindness. The Greek people are to be held responsible a great deal because they kept voting for politicians who couldn't care less for their country. To GENERALIZE is incredibly idiotic however, I suppose you do not agree with this. Not everybody is a tax evader, middle and lower class people, ordinary folks like you and I, have always paid their taxes, IN FACT they never had the option not to since the tax is automatically deducted from the salary. RICH people are the ones who avoid paying taxes. Pay for their partying?? Wow I sense bitterness for some reason that only you know. Mr Juncker declared a year ago that he had realized the Greeks’ financial hemorrhage caused by the excessive (and compulsory) expenses in buying war materials exclusively from Germany and France. And he concluded that our sellers were leading us on a path to destruction. However, he confesses that he didn’t take any action in order not to hurt the interests of friendly countries! And one last thing...up to the point that the crisis occurred, the people were reassured that there was no problem at all and George Papandreou REASSURED the people that we had nothing to worry about money-wise.In 2009 he secretly met with Strauss-Kahn, with the objective of driving Greece under the domination of the IMF. The information concerning this meeting was released by the former President of the IMF himself. Nobody informed the public of the serious predicament they were about to get into, the media is unfathomably corrupted just like everywhere else in the world. You seem to fail to comprehend that the whole thing was orchestrated in order for Greece to fall and create a domino effect, yes the Greek people are responsible for lacking the deep knowledge necessary to prevent the vultures from preying at them and thus becoming enablers. Turning a blind eye never solved any problem. Only thing that shocks me is how easy people like you generalize and condemn others but after reading the article you posted, it makes sense. Wow there was a party all those years and I missed it?! Damn! And be sure that Greek people do not want anyone's money, we want to exit the euro, we wanted that for a very long time but again, surprise surprise, the gov did everything they could for the opposite. Politicians play the Game, not people. I'm sorry you feel the way you feel towards ordinary people like you, take care.

Pay for their partying?? Wow I sense bitterness for some reason that only you know

reply to post by JustEve

I wouldn't call it bitterness. I would rather call it "fed up" with lazy people that take everything that they can get from governments, at the expense of people that work, pay taxes, and don't fake disability, or hide income from taxes. Don't tell me it's only the rich. I know a family in our neighborhood that is on "welfare", but work under the table in construction, and make enough money to own a Lexus, and take month-long vacations to the Islands.
In the case of Greece, it is even worse, in that they gamed the system, and now expect OTHER countries to pay for their foolishness. I do agree with you, that they elected these politicians that made the problem worse, just as the US elected someone that doesn't seem to understood the foolishness of socialism, and the ensuing lack of incentive in such a society. Without such incentive, we would never have had the wonders that exist in the world today.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Which country are you from?

Keep an eye out on the value of the euro over the next few days, it is about to go tumbling like a pig in a barrel down a hill. This was planned all along, the Greeks have been sold down the river, they were sacrificed to make the eurozone countries more competative abroad by seriously devaluing the currency. This was pre-meditated after they realised they could not control the value of their currency by any other means.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


I understand your point of view and respect it since I'd probably feel pretty much the same way if I were in your position. The problem is that once again, those who will pay are the weaker ones. The ones at fault always manage to escape any penalties and that is the ugly truth in Greece. Been like that ever since I can remember myself and I'm 31. I want those subhumans to face the penalties they deserve but it won't happen. It's so unfair when people who live by a pension of 350 euros are forced to live with even less or when young people who spent years to educate themselves and get their degrees are told that they will work for 500 euros a month...especially when the cost of living is so high! They are blamed, ridiculed and charged for other people's actions. Anyhow, I hope that out of this ordeal we will become stronger, care not only for ourselves but also for our neighbor's well-being and become more aware of what is important in life, not money or power by cheating to get them but a clear mind, a pure soul and a heart that feels empathy not only towards its owner but towards everybody. Who knows, perhaps good things can come out of even the direst of situations. Fingers crossed!

No matter how the situation goes, the greeks are indeed screwed. The choices are :-

1. Pay the debts, and become slaves to EU for generations, or
2. Default, strike it out on their own, self-austerity.

Choice 1 has no hope and worse, it will affect future generations as well, for the debt is too big to pay off by one generation with no growth and shrinking population, sovereignity.

Choice 2 although painful, but there IS HOPE. Tell EU and the bankers go to hell and make the REAL culprits pay, while the greek masses will have to share what they have, and improve upon existing revenues to fund greek social expenditure. In a matter of years, under a decade, with the right economic moves, it will become a great nation again.

Who are the real culprits of the Greek Tragedy?

1. Politicians.
They made promises to be voted. The masses are innocent, have no acess to accounts book which only the elected had. The politicians had failed to check, to anicipate and worse, allow the situation to get unstainably worse till the nation have to be be sold as slaves to EU.

Where had ALL the LOAN money went? It can't just disappear into thin air. Much of it went into corrupt politicians pockets and their capitalist cronies. They had siphoned off the promise of social pension funds as part mortgage for the loans, and as such, after paying off for years, there is nothing left for the pensioners and social expenditure today. They had robbed the trusting citizens blind, both young and old.

2. German bankers, economists and biz leaders in collusion with german politicians.
Much of the loans came from Germany. The german economic leaders and bankers are not stupid. They know that wealth can only be generated if their manufactured goods and resources are bought.

Thus they loaned to the corrupted cronies in Greece, whom used those funds frivolously for imported resources and goods, books inflated so that those in greece gets a cut in the scam. Money flows in, and flows back, WITH INTEREST, to german bankers and elites. That was the 'expected' drool. Default was totally unexpected today.

3. The Rich.
Much of the loans went to these biz leaders. Plenty of kickbacks and corruption, as well as tax evasions. Now they had all fled Greece with their ill begotten funds to sunny shores and luxurious living, and expect the trusting common masses to pay for the mess.

No dice. It's not a game anymore. Precious human lives are at stake. If EU and the bankers want the monies repaid, go look for the real culprits and STOP BUGGING THE GREEK MASSES!

All biz comes with risks. The bankers and economic leaders including economists know this well. Today - those risks had surfaced. Who pays now? Can a gambler who lost his money in a casino ask for a refund for his money lost? No. It's a no brainer.

EU and German leaders took that risk. If they want the money back, go string up the ex -politicians and the rich elites, where-ever they are. I am sure interpol will help catch the crooks. Bank accounts are fully traceable in these modern times.

The ones at fault always manage to escape any penalties and that is the ugly truth in Greece.

reply to post by JustEve

You're right, and it is the same in the US. Look at all the financial problems that occurred in the US, and all of the crooked deals. No one is in jail, no one has been fined, and they are all indeed living high on the hog. I'm afraid it's the same in most countries. The rich in the US have accountants to get them out of paying their fair share of taxes. Both parties are at fault here. Although Obama wants to "tax the rich", he conveniently set the level at which taxes will rise to be JUST ABOVE his income. He is worth over $10,000,000.00, and has over $1,000,000.00 in J.P. Morgan, the bank that used customer money on lost investments, against the US banking law, and Obama gets on TV after it, and praises J.P. Morgan. All politicians are hypocrites and liars.
Peace.

EU and the elites should do well to acknowledge that the greeks will be going to the polls once again, NOT because the greeks will be accepting serfdom by accepting EU austerity enforcement, but only to ensure a majority vote be given to the greek representative to adminster Greece, to reject EU slavery.

Many of the elites will villify Alexis Tsipras, whose Syriza party is tipped to win the election as a radical, a leftist, a villain, etc, etc, and claim he will lead Greece only to doom.

Thing is, under EU and every single past greek gov, Greece HAD ALREADY BEEN LEFT TO DOOM LONG AGO. Were any of the past leaders any better? None. They were corrupted to the core, knew full well the state of finances in the country, but had chosen to lie with smiles and smart suits while colluding with their rich cronies to rob the masses blind for decades. And thus today's result of the state of Greece.

Would leadership under EU be any better? None. Every single cent that the common masses worked for in GDP revenues earned will be made to pay off debts, with nothing left for Greeks. Education, Healthcare, Infrastructure, security - social expenditure will end.

Worse will come the selling of assests, at rock bottom prices, seized by foreign banks and sold to foreigners. Greeks will end up seeing Greece owned by foreigners while they and their generations slave under them, losing sovereignity, culture and rights. Colonisation of Greece by another name - Debt indebtures. Enslavement of a People. In this modern age.

Can Alexis Tsipras do any better? At least he is an ethnic greek, and is supported by a fellow greek council of parliamentarians that will allow no dictatorship, or the masses will rise once again.

With rule of law, at least greedy banks will have to pause with foreclosures and 'austerity'/slavery packages, the way the initial China commies stopped the goobling up of China by foreign powers during the earlier years before Mao turned devil. Tsipras will have no chance of that, as the greek masses will allow no dictator to rule for long.

Tsipras, for all his talk, will be judged by his actions, to keep Greece for Greeks. There are solutions to resolve the debt issue, but it will need greeks to work together with a common goal and vision, and not the vision and enslavement policies by the greedy rich and foreigners. Post war japan had proven it can be done. Iceland too. As well as a few others well led nations in our world had proven.

Other tottering nations best take heed of what is to come. Financial wizards are what they truly are - greed filled illusionists with illusions to enslave the masses. EU is now proven a failed idea, and whomever supported it must be held accountable - from politicians to economic leaders and their economists.

reply to post by surrealist


According to one of my mother's coworker,very well connected,Greece's exit from Euro has been decided since we entered Euro in 2001.

According to her ,a member of the 2001 parliament,told her to put all her money in banks in Switzerland,because in 2012 Greece will exit the euro and anyone who has money in Greek banks will lose them.

I don't know how accurate this is,but i know for certain that everyone in her family have accounts in Swiss banks.

So all this statements from Merkel and all the others are just a big show.

The German leader Merkel is a DISGRACE to all womanhood holding leadership position with her flip flops.

First, she demands austerity on Greece.
Then she forktongued that austerity came with growth.
Now she claims austerity cannot exists with stimulas funding.

First, may she realize - WHERE does germany's wealth came from?

It did not came about because germans were hardworking,or made quality products, or have products bought all over the world.
It came about because of the EU,where trade was liberalised,and her products/resources/services were bought by clueless but corrupted politicians all over EU. It made germany flushed with cash.

And in this financial crisis, created by banks, germany faces problems, more with its banks whom had been lending freeling. BUT, germans had not stopped working, or fellow EU member states stopped their trade with germany. Germany continued to functioned, and survive, and even grow its GDP.

But should austerity kicks in with several EU states, germany herself will collapse in time, within years if not months, for none will buy her resources.Demands for Austerity will only kill herself. In good times, one should go for austerity, to make it painless for citizens. But it bad times, SPENDING is the ONLY way.

There is a difference in living under illusions and living under realities.

That germany is wealthy because of thrift was a lie. It imposed its resources and unconscionable banking services upon EU states is the truth. Today, Greece and all other EU members know the truth and reality. And needs Germany, so too germany needs EU. It sucks when truth is realized, but it better the truth than the lie, so that each nation may survive than out on its own at this stage.

Post war Japan too, sucked to be under conqueror USA thumbs, and worked fervantly hard to clear its debts. WIthin 7 years, it paid in full, but with the benevolent and democratic treatment by USA, unusual to the long tyrannical dominated state of japan for centuries, it became friends and allies of the greatest nature today.

So too will Greece be, in the acceptances of the hopefully democratic dominating economic linkage to Germany. But at least Greeks have a choice now, with the full truth and comprehension.

Tsipras had risen to the front ranks, for economic hope and salvation of majority greeks, and set to win in the elections. He is needed in Greece, for far too long, none dares to stand up. Despite attempts by bankers and their bootlickers to smear him, as leftist, radical, etc, there is no doubt he is line for leadership and mandate of rule.

He is no dreamer, but a pragmatist. He knows germany is needed, and is prepared to work under EU, not independently, but collectively, not under austerity failures, but progress growth instead while at the same time dismantling the structural corruption of greek politics which he fully acknowledges.

Best Merkal throws her lot with him, support him till he proves otherwise, and work on STIMULAS with under-currents to reform unbalanced economic issues. Its the only solution left.

Austerity had long failed. To continue so is destroy EU. EU cannot exist under the foundation of greed. It can only exists if it egalitarianly cares for ALL within Eu, come hell or highwater. This is the test for the survivability of EU, as a collective human spirit, and not tyrannical economic digits to make only the few wealthy..