It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Please, For The Love Of God...Someone Explain This!

page: 1
3

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 14 2012 @ 03:49 AM
link   
All,

I'm really sorry for being so naive regarding the US elections but i haven't struggled with something so much since i was in school 15 years ago.

My understanding is that the public vote (caucus or whatever its called), then they somehow come to the decision on delegates per state (this part confuses me), then there is a final public vote.

Is that right? If not can someone please explain because the US system seems awfully, and pointlessly, over complicated and I'm sure I'm not the only foreigner who is following the US elections with difficulty.

Can someone please explain the process in layman's terms, start to finish.

And..

Can someone please provide a real time situation regarding delegates? i.e. who is winning most states etc.

I'm seriously confused...




posted on May, 14 2012 @ 03:53 AM
link   
reply to post by jrmcleod
 


TPTB



Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.
edit on 14-5-2012 by Gemwolf because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 04:05 AM
link   

Originally posted by jrmcleod
All,

I'm really sorry for being so naive regarding the US elections but i haven't struggled with something so much since i was in school 15 years ago.

My understanding is that the public vote (caucus or whatever its called), then they somehow come to the decision on delegates per state (this part confuses me), then there is a final public vote.

Is that right? If not can someone please explain because the US system seems awfully, and pointlessly, over complicated and I'm sure I'm not the only foreigner who is following the US elections with difficulty.

Can someone please explain the process in layman's terms, start to finish.

And..

Can someone please provide a real time situation regarding delegates? i.e. who is winning most states etc.

I'm seriously confused...

Well.... I just happened to be on and I hope I can help. I'm taking a final on this in 2 days.


It depends on the state but all states have a Primary OR a Caucus. Some states, like Missouri, have both. In our case, only the Caucus actually counts.

The PRIMARY is where everyone goes to the same polling places they will in the big national election. In the primary though, it's selecting the man you want to be the candidate for your party. Some states restrict the voting to those already registered as that party's member (closed primary) and some let each voter choose a Dem or Republican primary ballot each time. (Open Primary)

The CAUCUS is a bit different, That is a meeting of the voters who choose to attend the caucus for their party. There, it goes by well established rules of order and procedure to run through a series of votes which eventually produces the Caucus choice for each precinct (voting district) of the state. That generally determines which way the State's delegates will vote at the part convention. (August for Republicans this year, September for Democrats)

Then, the National General Election is what you know as the time you go and vote for President.


(By the way, the other purpose for a Primary and one reason Missouri has it as well as a Caucus is that it gives another opportunity for measures and such to get a vote between major elections. Low attendance though, so nothing really important usually appears)

That help some? If I fail the final, I'll come back and tell ya I didn't know what I was talking about.



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 04:08 AM
link   
reply to post by jrmcleod
 


electoral college look it up...i don't understand why people think their vote matters when it comes to the presidency
edit on 14-5-2012 by alkesh because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 04:12 AM
link   
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Thanks for that


Now i understand a bit better also. But I "know" there will be another election in the USA in November. Marshal law will be bought in before then and a civil war may ensue if people get the courage to rise up.

Maybe I should expand on why I know there wont be another election. The equation is quite simple.

Why should they risk a Ron Paul type revolution in the next election? If there is even the slightest chance of Ron Paul becomming president and getting NDAA power he could lock up all the conspirators using the US military. There is no way they will even risk another election. Why give up power when you already have it?

The federal establishment is putting the final pieces of the jigsaw in place. The last things they need to do is:

1. Buy ammunition to get ready for any backlash from the public
2. Set up checkpoints to enforce public cooperation and intimidate against rebellion
3. Purchase armour to quell any uprising
4. Make sure all laws are in place.



edit on 14/5/2012 by Democide because: Added explanation.



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 04:12 AM
link   
Well I`ll have to admit I`m in the clouds on the matter...sounds like a pretty gay election to me...but what do I know,I`m only from Canaduh



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 04:31 AM
link   
reply to post by Democide
 

Your welcome!
I'm just happy I can do something with all the details I spent the semester getting right beyond passing a test. This class was a legal requirement to the degree.

I think you may be over-thinking this a bit. I won't touch the Paul part....
No need to.

Why would they worry about Americans rebelling? Seriously.. consider for a moment. Are you going to fight? Okay.. If yes.. Who is your commander? Today. right now. Who is his commander? Even a rag tag Militia needs an established chain of command or it's not a group, it's a bunch of individuals just heading in the same general direction.

If you find yourself at a loss for who you're taking orders from or..giving them to..if the SHTF tomorrow, don't feel bad. I'll bet 80% or more are in the same boat. How does that matter? What you don't have set up right now, today, never will be. So, they can have the election. No problems... If people get grumpy? They pull the Net plug and dump voice communications that don't have an access tone to key into the system. No Net? No Communication? Like I said..what you don't have arranged right now, never will be.

Thus...They're safe. Depressing, huh? Nothing like getting right to the real bottom line to feel truly helpless.



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 04:35 AM
link   
Thanks for the responses but i am still at a loss regarding Delegates.

I see threads about how RP has won the delegates for this state and that states. Where do they come into it and where did they come from? What is their importance. During the Caucus and Primaries, RP was pretty much beat, yet he is winning most of the delegates.

This begs the question of, whats the point in the primaries and caucuses if someone who gets the majority of delegates can be elected to run for presidency...or am i well off the neaten track?



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 04:48 AM
link   
Each state has either a primary or a caucus. (Some actually have both!)

But for simplicity sakes in a primary or caucus each candidate is voted on by the registered voters in that state. In some states they are closed which means only republican and then there are open aswell which allows independents and democrats to vote in the republican nomination. (Again some states are semi-open and only allow independents to vote).

Anyway each precinct or in some cases districts vote for their delegates to move onto the state conventions where the district and at large delegates that will go to the national convention are chosen. (Again it’s different in every state but in most this is how is generally how it works). Now basically some states bind their delegates to a candidate that may have won the popular vote or proportionally bind based on the popular vote in that state but after recent rule debates and submissions it would seem that each delegate is really a free agent and free to vote for whoever they choose. (This theory will be in play at the convention in August)

Basically in ALOT of states the popular vote doesn’t mean alot and it’s the delegates that really chose the nominee for the party.

Hope this helps a little.
edit on 14-5-2012 by TankWolf because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 04:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by jrmcleod
Thanks for the responses but i am still at a loss regarding Delegates.

I see threads about how RP has won the delegates for this state and that states. Where do they come into it and where did they come from? What is their importance. During the Caucus and Primaries, RP was pretty much beat, yet he is winning most of the delegates.

This begs the question of, whats the point in the primaries and caucuses if someone who gets the majority of delegates can be elected to run for presidency...or am i well off the neaten track?


The Caucuses and Primaries are what are used to select the delegates which appear at the party convention.

The state delegates then vote at the convention, which selects the Candidate that will appear on the Ballot for the party in November.

Those who get the majority of delegates at the state level, generally win the Convention and without any fuss. In practice, all but 1 have generally dropped out long before that anyway. Anyone remaining is usually just a spoiler or trying to stretch their 15 minutes of fame into the absurd.


This time? Who knows.... There is that 3rd wheel and he's still picking up delegates. He cannot, to my knowledge on the count, get enough to win the Convention on raw delegate count. What CAN happen at this point though, is to come close enough to throw the Convention into a REAL vote situation (A Convention in Contention, for those who like rhymes
) where it isn't simply a technical procedure to make official what everyone knows long beforehand anyway. This time, there may really be a barn burner of a Convention come August.


On the other point... Electoral College, yes I forgot that part, but it's not relevant until AFTER the General November election and a whole different topic and can of worms..depending on how much folks know about the details of that process already.



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 04:54 AM
link   
Im not American either but from what I can tell the system is set up to be as complicated and confusing as possible so that when TPTB put their puppet in place its to hard for anyone to go through the whole process to figure out how it all happened.
None of it really seems logical but there are many opportunities for the average pleb to get involved and feel like they have helped shape their nation.

Hope this helps



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 04:57 AM
link   
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


OK that makes sense but whats with RP? He didn't get a majority popular vote in most state primaries and caucuses, yet he seems to be running away with the delegates...surely if he was "unpopular" with the people as we are to believe he cant secure so many delegates...



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 05:04 AM
link   
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Sorry, but can you post up pics or some datagram of all these procedure ? Pics speak thousand words.
I do understand it but where the Electoral College come from and what significant of it ?



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 05:09 AM
link   
reply to post by jrmcleod
 


no you're not, don't worry even the people who understand what's going on can't tell you why we've decided that this is the best possible system. We can all obviously see that there are major design flaws. The one thing that I've become concerned with is that the republican party is opposed to big government, yet they are screaming for Voter ID laws, among other mandates.

People are entirely too distracted here in America to be well informed and prepared enough to actually stand up. The only way I see your situation coming into play is if simultaneous events occur, placing many population centers into the "hot zones" category and them shutting down the communication grid. Many people can't afford to travel greater distances here, but if that happened, there would be people trying to migrate away and the word would still spread (If people can't get out, people can't get in either). There are just so many systems and social institutions to keep us busy and worried about daily concerns and not long term concerns. People rely on way too much, they (the people) in fact don't want the system to go anywhere, so what if they can't fix it, it's better than the alternative, right? Most still believe that there is a genuine ability to work hard and prosper from it, and I'm not saying it isn't. Just more times than not, people don't get their 'just desserts'. Either way, there will be no stand and if there is, it will be met with adequate force.

People standing up and protesting aren't just a bunch of lazy kids that feel entitled. Ok, well I won't make to broad a generalization, because there are those that are the fillers that the media will focus on to destroy credibility. There are a lot of hard working Americans that have the rug pulled from under them, the system has # on them enough and the increasing homeless numbers don't have a say, even if the system worked, because they no longer have mailing addresses.

Where ever you look there is always something else afoot. IT doesn't end, the only way it'll end is when we see a restoration in communities, the only way I see that is when people don't have to travel as far, or be constantly separated from the rest of the world by their consumer products. The majority of America is strip malls and concrete jungles, you seldom finds community neighborhoods outside of major or esoteric population centers.

I think the worst part of the society here really doesn't lie with the corruption of the government, or the media, or any of that other ####. It really all comes down to peoples mentalities in the public mindset. Here it's all about the car you drive, the clothes you wear, the friends you make, the amount of money you have, what your kids are doing and so on and so forth, it's a never-ending cycle. It's all superficial, but don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people here that aren't like that, who aren't distracted, who hold genuine friendships, who can turn around and face themselves in the mirror. We have too many Alexanders and not enough Digoneses.

Hopefully we'll find a way out, but it's unlikely without major social changes and rural & urban redevelopment plans.



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 05:18 AM
link   

Originally posted by NullVoid
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Sorry, but can you post up pics or some datagram of all these procedure ? Pics speak thousand words.
I do understand it but where the Electoral College come from and what significant of it ?

If someone doesn't pop up with some net graphics soon I'll make some. I need the practice in the graphics programs anyway and nothing better to do while waiting on finals this week.

You made me dig out my notebooks...lol Here is the basics on the electoral college though.

Okay, when you vote in November, you are voting for a slate of electors at the electoral college. No one actually votes for the President directly. This year, the total numbers are as follows:

Total Electoral Electors: 538

435 of those come from the house districts in each state. 1 each.

100 of those come from the numbers in the Senate. 1 each.

3 remainder are there to represent the District of Columbia and the U.S. Territories. It's compromise on those so the people in those areas feel they have something, but you can see, that isn't much to talk about.

Okay, that's how they break down for representation. They have their vote in December, if the election has gone well. In this election the votes will be counted and certified in a joint session on Jan. 6th.

By the way, of those 538, it takes 270 to win it. That is the number people watch the media hovering over all night on election day.

Origin of the Electoral College is right from the start. It's outlined in Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution and again in the 12th Amendment, which was passed to 'modernize' the system.
(Link to text of 12 Amendment)

It's purpose is basic, even if some don't agree. It was the compromise back when the Constitution was written so a state like New York or Virginia who had LARGE populations couldn't just steam roll the smaller states by popular vote alone. Even today, by general math on who many turn out and how many it takes to win, the top 13 metro areas, if they voted as a block, could elect the President single handedly and right over every other area in the nation IF popular vote were used. That is why it's there. 2000 showed it's not always popular, but the alternative would be far worse.

edit on 14-5-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: added / fixed link



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 06:04 AM
link   
Can someone explain this MAP to me. I have scrolled through it and there are only 2 states that have RP with the most delegates. Arizona and Oklahoma, according to another thread linked HERE, has RP as winning the most delegates yet according to this MAP, he has won 0 delegates in both states.



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 06:31 AM
link   
I threw a quick graphic together here for the basic flow of the system with important dates.....



Forgive me for my oversight in not mentioned the State Convention.. That is the step between the Caucus in your local community and the National Republican or Democratic Convention. Generally speaking, the media doesn't mention it and it's not going to be a matter of interest unless you are a delegate yourself or there is some drama, which usually never makes it beyond the local caucus level.

Detailed explanation of Caucus through State Convention
^^ That is a quick page showing how it worked this year in Missouri for that process between county Caucus and national convention.

I'll leave the Paul specific stuff to others...
That's a spot I don't want to get in this morning. I'll just say some delegates are 'obligated', some aren't and who is who isn't as clear as we'd all like it to be. If Paul hangs in there and people keep the faith to the last race, Romney won't have a trouble free convention and things may get interesting.


edit on 14-5-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2012 @ 11:30 AM
link   
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Thanks, that cleared a lot of questions and surely raise a lot more.
On a single glance it democratic, but on close inspection, it is not. According to Wikipedia, we all can love Mickey Mouse, but to make him president, we do not hold much power.

It is really a problem having a desert in the middle and adding to the complexity - state regulations varies so much. Indeed it is complex, but can be much better, need to amend the constitution.



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 11:13 PM
link   
reply to post by NullVoid
 

I agree on it being needlessly complex and really, for caucus states, a process few people even know how to participate in. The Ron Paul movement had me attending my very first Caucus this year. Frankly I didn't even understand what they meant by non-binding on the primary until then. I knew it wasn't a 100% lock to who we voted for in that, but I had no idea that for Missouri that primary vote is nothing but a public statement and makes people feel like they did their part.


If I had my way....We'd have all the primaries on ONE day. ONE. Just like the General Election. None of this crap where Iowa or New Hampshire drop candidates before other states even get the chance to vote either way. The electoral college has to stay tho... Popular vote on that is mob rule. States like Wyoming, North Dakota or Montana to name a few, may as well secede on the spot for all the say they'd ever have on that again by pure population numbers alone.



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 11:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by jrmcleod
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


OK that makes sense but whats with RP? He didn't get a majority popular vote in most state primaries and caucuses, yet he seems to be running away with the delegates...surely if he was "unpopular" with the people as we are to believe he cant secure so many delegates...


Ron Paul is playing a game.

In these primaries, the delegates are either bound by the results of the popular vote or they aren't bound and can vote however they want.

In primary states, delegates are usually either directly elected or elected at the State conventions but selected among the supporters that the delegate is bound to. For example...if Romney gets 5 delegates, they will select 5 Romney supporters as delegates.

In Caucus states, this is where Ron Paul is playing his games. At the precinct Caucuses, they have the Presidential preference polls first, this is where everyone votes and the results we see reported. After that, the majority of people leave the caucus because what is left is "party business" that could take 2-3 hours and most people just want to vote and go home. Except the Paul supporters...they came up with a plan to all stay for the "party business"...part of that party business is electing delegates...and the Ron Paul supporters would all vote to elect a Ron Paul supporter as a delegate. These delegates go on to a Country Convention and elect delegates that go on to a District Convention to elect delegates to go to the State Convention...at the State Convention, this is where they elect the national delegates to go to the National Convention.

Still with me???

Now, lets go back to the precinct level at the actual Caucus. The tradition has been that the delegates elected out of these precincts will honor the precinct vote when they go to the Country (and beyond) conventions. So if Romney wins the precinct vote...but the only person willing to be a delegate is a Santorum voter...he will go to the Country convention and elect a Romney delegate if available because he is there just to represent his neighbors who voted with him in his precinct. Ron Paul supporters broke this tradition and said, to hell with my neighbors and the popular vote, I'm voting for Ron Paul supporters all the way through the National Convention. Luckily, most of these delegates are still legally bound to vote for the popular vote winner at the National Convention.

SO...long story short...when you hear Paul supporters say "WE WON ARIZONA"...what they mean is that the majority of the delegates going to the National Convention from Arizona are Ron Paul supporters...but since Romney won Arizona, and it is winner take all, they are all legally bound to vote for Romney at the National Convention. You may hear talk of them saying they are going to vote to "unbind" or that they are going to "abstain" on the first round (most delegates are only bound on the first round of voting, if no one wins the first round, the binding is dropped). But this is just untrue propaganda they are trying to spread...they are legally bound to vote for Romney...even Ron Paul himself knows this.

Hope I didn't confuse you too much.



new topics

top topics



 
3

log in

join