The Fili, ancient Egyptians and origins of masonic teachings

Originally posted by LUXUS
If I could edit my original post I would remove "Scottish rite" freemasonry and simply put it as Scottish masonry to stop you boys picking at minor points, oh I'm sure you knew exactly what I was referring to. Maybe I should be more exact and put Scottish operative masonry because I know how you like to distinguish between the two (even though one must have developed from the other).

John Holbrook Estill wrote:

Undoubtably Masons were employed at the creation of the Tower of Babel, where, as we are informed in some of our rituals, language was confounded and masonry lost."

Before you question John Holbrook Estills authority to make such a statement perhaps you would like to read his qualifications below, I'm sure you will all find him suitably qualified!

"He is a member of the Georgia Historical Society, the Savannah Yacht Club, and a number of social organizations. He is a prominent Mason, a Past Master of Solomon's
Lodge No. i; life member of Georgia Chapter No. 3, Royal Arch Masons; member of Palestine Commandery No. 7, Knights Templar, and a Shriner, and is Past Junior Grand Warden of the Grand Lodge of
Georgia. He is a member of St. John's Episcopal Church and is one of its Vestrymen."

So we have a statement here saying that masonry (the secrets of) were lost at the building of the tower and we have master fenius sending 72 of his best scholars to the tower to recover the knowledge which was subsequently brought back to Ireland!

Don't let my words or Augustus' get to you. Neither of us were trying to quibble at "minor points." You connected Scottish Rite to Scotland directly and we pointed out the error. I'm always happy to have my errors pointed out as it makes me better.

Interesting Estill quote. It would be a fascinating and romantic notion if masonry were to actually date back that far, but I remain doubtful. While I was a mason I was always frustrated by the cloudy past of the fraternity. It doesn't bother me much anymore but I still think about it from time to time (though my thoughts are occupied elsewhere these days, especially since I'm no longer a mason).

Oldest Masonic lodge in the world in Scotland:

"The Lodge of Edinburgh (Mary's Chapel) No.1 is a Masonic Lodge in Edinburgh,[1] Scotland under the auspices of the Grand Lodge of Scotland. It is number 1 on the Roll, and as it possesses the oldest minute of any masonic lodge in existence (July 1599)[1][2] and the first historical reference of a non-operative or speculative freemason being initiated as a member (1634), it is reputed to be the oldest Masonic Lodge not only in Scotland, but the world."
en.wikipedia.org...

Second oldest Masonic lodge in the world....in Scotland!


"Mother Kilwinning History

The history of the Mother Lodge dates back to the year 1140 at the building of the Abbey, the ruins of which lie to the rear of the Lodge. The Lodge was founded in the chapter house within the Abbey and remained there until the reformation in 1560 when the Earl of Glencairn, a blood enemy of the Earls of Eglinton who hold a long tradition with the Lodge, sacked the Abbey.

Little is known of the masons at this point but they still met at various locations including the Abbey in 1598-1599, the house in the Crossbrae in the town centre in 1643 known as the "masons howf" and the court house of the Earl of Eglinton. In the mid 1700,s the masons decided to build a new Lodge and in 1779 the old Lodge was built at the entrance to the Abbey. Unfortunately 100 years later due to decay and fear of the building collapsing it was demolished and a new Lodge was built 30 yards from the former site and remains there today. The present Lodge was consecrated in 1893."
mk0.com...

Originally posted by LUXUS
If I could edit my original post I would remove "Scottish rite" freemasonry and simply put it as Scottish masonry to stop you boys picking at minor points, oh I'm sure you knew exactly what I was referring to.

If we did know what is to say someone not versed in Masonic history would have understood the difference. There is a good deal of misunderstanding regarding the Scottish Rite an its supposed influence that I felt it was necessary to mention the point.

reply to post by LUXUS


This is a very interesting post and actually resonates a lot of Masonic ritual. The setting is different, IE King Solomon's Temple, but the story is similar.

I think our ruffled feathers on both sides show what happens when we quibble on the definition of a word and what is conveyed.

That's why mystery schools use symbols. They stand in place of an idea. The word may be lost to history but the concept isn't.

There are other allegorical builders throughout history that have been murdered because the killers didn't understand that a Word is not a word. A word can be said, but a Word is ineffable.

Thus, if I say to someone, "Give me the Word or I will kill you!" they can't. No one can. The Word can't be said, our language is too limited. It's like a blind man telling me to give him the color green or he will kill me.

I can not.

reply to post by LUXUS

Except that major point of Scottish Masonry versus Scottish Rite is a big. To a non-Mason it may seem insignificant or unimportant, but members realize the differences.

There are many theories of the origins of Freemasonry, but Masonic scholars cannot agree on that. The guy has a nice Masonic resume. I have a friend who is researching the Roman Collegia and the Comacine Builders in England, and the development of Freemasonry.

reply to post by KSigMason


Scholars can agree that masonry first appeared in Scotland and that Scotland has the oldest masonic lodges in the world. Scholars can agree that King James VI became a Freemason at the lodge of Perth and Scone Scotland in 1601 and on becoming James I of England two years later introduced freemasonry into England.

So you are left with the question of how and from whom did the Scots inherit these teachings.

reply to post by emsed1


The Zen monk would ask a student what is the sound of one hand clamping. Obviously the answer would be silence but it was from that silence or void that all things come. All sound comes from the no sound and all words originate from silence.

This concept is not however what we are dealing with when we consider the secret word Enoch inscribed into a golden triangle (Delta of Enoch) or the golden triangle Hiram abif wore around his neck on which was inscribed the word of power.

Words are vibrations and there are words which due to their vibrational make-up have effects in the real world. Those who fail to find such things console themselves with the idea that the word is the sound of the void and something that cannot be put in writing. If so what did Enoch and Hiram abif write on the triangle?

"However about the stone (The philosophers stone) which attracts and binds to itself other stones you must not be skeptical; for you can see the stone yourself if you like, and admire its properties. For the greatest specimen is exactly of the size of this finger nail," and here he pointed to his own thumb, "and it is conceived in a hollow in the earth at a depth of four fathoms; but it is so highly endowed with spirit, that the earth swells and breaks open in many places when the stone is conceived in it. But no one can get hold of it, for it runs away, unless it is scientifically attracted; but we alone can secure, partly by performance of certain rites and partly by certain forms of words, this pantarbe, for such is the name given to it." Flavius Philostratus:The Life of Apollonius
www.livius.org...

"Guhyavidya, knowledge of the mystic power residing in sound (Ether), hence in the Mantras (chanted prayers or incantations), and depending on the rhythm and melody used; in other words, a magical performance based on knowledge of the forces of nature and their correlation" H.P. Blavatsky

reply to post by LUXUS


THIS is the battle I fight every day with people I care about.

There are words and then there is the Word.

Manmade words are terrible at conveying ideas.

Symbols are better.

In my humble opinion, the only way to TRULY convey meaning is for the student to seek it out and experience it for himself. Or herself.

One of the symbols you mentioned has deep, powerful meaning for me. The first time I saw it was when I was undergoing a powerful, personal, spiritual experience.

From now on that symbol will remind me of what I FELT when I saw it and not what somebody told me it meant.

reply to post by emsed1


Yes I know what you are talking about "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." however the word that was inscribed on the delta can be spoken by human voice, it was a word of power.

reply to post by LUXUS


If it's what I think it is... The first time I said it it scared the crap out of me!

Originally posted by LUXUS


Scholars can agree that masonry first appeared in Scotland and that Scotland has the oldest masonic lodges in the world. Scholars can agree that King James VI became a Freemason at the lodge of Perth and Scone Scotland in 1601 and on becoming James I of England two years later introduced freemasonry into England.

Incorrect. The oldest existing Masonic manuscript, the Regius Mss. in the British Museum, is English, not Scottish, and is dated from the 14th century. Further, there is absolutely no evidence that James VI was ever a Freemason. The Perth and Scone *claims* that James had been a member....but there at least 5 different lodges in Paris all claiming that they were Napoleon's lodge.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Kilwinning Lodge Scotland dates back to the year 1140 which is the oldest record of a masonic lodge known anywhere.

King James VI of Scotland (later James I of England) was accepted into a Scottish Lodge in 1601: Records held at the Masonic Archives, Freemasons hall, Edinburgh.

reply to post by LUXUS

Surviving records is a tricky thing though when proving who is the oldest model of Freemasonry. Yes, Scotland is believed to be ONE of the oldest Lodges, but don't forget the Regius Poem/Halliwell Manuscript which states Freemasonry was founded in York, England, under the reign of King Athelstan. Technically records show that the Templar Orders were conferred in America before they were in England, but we know that the Templar Orders came to America from England, and the first ones were conferred by British Military Lodges.

Like I said though, I have a friend who is researching the Roman Collegia and Comacine Builders which would have been up in parts of Scotland as well in England.

Originally posted by LUXUS


Kilwinning Lodge Scotland dates back to the year 1140 which is the oldest record of a masonic lodge known anywhere.

The Regius purports to be the record of a Masonic gathering in York, England circa 980 A.D. Mother Kilwinning in Scotland certainly is an old lodge, but most historians agree that there were older ones whose records have not came down to us.

King James VI of Scotland (later James I of England) was accepted into a Scottish Lodge in 1601: Records held at the Masonic Archives, Freemasons hall, Edinburgh.

Not precisely. There aren't any actual records per se, but later minutes have allusions to it. It may or may not have happened, just like one of those Parisian lodges may or may not have initiated Napoleon.

I just reached for a book I had purchased some time ago but never read. It is called "The forgotten Monarchy of Scotland" and its author is HRH Prince Michael of Albany head of the royal house of Stewart.

He states that the celtic branch of Christianity that St Cloumba introduced into Scotland via Iona later merged with the Cistercian order. From this Cistercian order arose the Knights Templar as a branch off order of warrior Cistercian monks. He also states that the brothers of the rosy cross developed from the knights templar order.

Prince Michael is head of the Church of St Columba and head of the Knights Templar in Scotland.

If this is correct then we know St Columba was a member of the Secret society of the fili and this would suggest that the Knights templar ultimately inherited this knowledge in addition to whatever they may have obtained whilst in Jerusalem.



Also explains why the knights Templar were associated with Baphomet who is called Cernunnos in Ireland (god of wisdom and secret knowledge)

Originally posted by LUXUS


He states that the celtic branch of Christianity that St Cloumba introduced into Scotland via Iona later merged with the Cistercian order. From this Cistercian order arose the Knights Templar as a branch off order of warrior Cistercian monks. He also states that the brothers of the rosy cross developed from the knights templar order.

I haven't read or heard of the book, but it seems more lore and legend than history. The Templars were not Ciscterians, nor were they Scottish or English. They were founded as a French order. The Rosicrucians, on the other hand, were a German society of alchemists, and not a chivalric order.

Prince Michael is head of the Church of St Columba and head of the Knights Templar in Scotland.

Actually, the Grand Master of Knights Templar in Scotland is David Niven.

greatprioryofscotland.com...

Also explains why the knights Templar were associated with Baphomet who is called Cernunnos in Ireland (god of wisdom and secret knowledge)

The Templar association with Baphomet was a hoax, and the Vatican archives confirm this.

reply to post by Masonic Light


HRH Prince Michael is Grand Master of the Order of the Knights Templar of St. Anthony.

Christian Rosenkreuz was in the story a knight as far as I remember, I just looked Prince Michael also has written a book exclusively about the history of the knights templar.


Edit> Did further research into HRH Prince Michael, he is a fake! His real name is "Michel Roger Lafosse" Shame because I was going to read the book, now I'm not going to bother!

Originally posted by LUXUS


Christian Rosenkreuz was in the story a knight as far as I remember, I just looked Prince Michael also has written a book exclusively about the history of the knights templar.

In the legend given in the "Fama" he was a monk and physician. If you've never read it, I'd suggest "the True and Invisible Rosicrucian Order" by Paul Foster Case. It's a bit technical and tedious with some of the Kabalistic allusions, but it offers a very enlightening interpretation of the Fama lagend.

Edit> Did further research into HRH Prince Michael, he is a fake! His real name is "Michel Roger Lafosse" Shame because I was going to read the book, now I'm not going to bother!

edit on 16-5-2012 by LUXUS because: (no reason given)

That's the problem with this topic while doing research....there are so many books to wade through, and unfortunately, the majority are almost completely worthless. One of my favorites, which is heavy on facts on documentation, is "Rose Croix: A History of the Ancient and Accepted Rite in England and Wales" by A.C.F. Jackson, Past Grand Historian of the English Supreme Council.

Thank for for contributing to this thread ML
As always, your insight helps to deny ignorance.

If you haven't heard...TruTV will be showing....12 Conspiracy Theories About The Masons

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