Angel and demon, the same "thing" ?

Originally posted by stupid girl

It is foolishness to postulate evil spirits being one and the same as angelic entities. For starters, whomever chooses to believe that becomes the poster-child for the folly of man and enslaves himself to demonic deception, thus only serving to fulfill the scheming strategem of evil spirits. I cringe at the thought of someone being as dumb and ignorant as they expect us to be.

I think you are more into attempting to feel morally superior to other people based on what they speculate about?

Not only that, your account isn't even Biblical, or matching with various other religious traditions. In the Bible it clearly states that every "demon" is actually an angel that "fell from heaven".

And it is not foolish to postulate about anything. Investigation and inquisition are the key to unlocking the truth.
There isn't even any hard evidence that these things actually exist, so I find it very difficult to heed someones warning that by reading about the history of religions or by speculating what they may insinuate, when the very object of the subject may not even exist.

Here, I'll go cower with you under the sheets and close my mind if you can do one simple thing. Provide documented evidence that Demons / Angels actually exist. Provide me the philosophical reasoning that makes it impossible for me to attribute that evidence to ghosts or aliens.
You can't.

Why? Because the truth is we humans don't have a clue what is going on at Earth. You can believe your simplistic false spiritism all you want, but don't use it to condemn me and my search for the hidden truth about our past. I am on a mission to find out the truth, not hide in fear that the spooks might get me.

I am an open minded individual and I am willing to look into all beliefs and documents, no matter how "scary" others may think it is. Guess what? It's all hocus pocus, and if any of it isn't hocus pocus, I plan on documenting it and revealing my findings to other humans.

Speaking of Hocus Pocus, did you know that one of the theories of it's etymology is "Ochus Bachus"? A Norse magical figure believed to be derived from Bacchus, the Greek God of Wine.
Why is the Norse mythology a near mirror image of other mythologies?

List of "thunder gods" - wiki

How do all of these cultures believe in the same gibberish? Is it really gibberish, or are there unknown facets to this that we have not uncovered yet? Is there a connection?

Please review this the last thread I wrote: Babylon
Although a few minor corrections can be made, the overall gist of it still remains.

If you want to know my personal opinion about "Demons", if they do exist, they are afraid of me because I am a seeker of good. I would never give up one ounce of my integrity or dignity to purchase power or wealth from highly questionable non-corporeal entities, especially considering the warnings about it found all throughout history.

Also "Demons" apparently don't want to be proven scientifically to the mass public. And if one started messing with me I would for sure document it and reveal the evidence to the entire world in a heartbeat. That is probably true kryptonite right there.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Not only that, your account isn't even Biblical, or matching with various other religious traditions. In the Bible it clearly states that every "demon" is actually an angel that "fell from heaven".

Unless you believe what the Book of Enoch says.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
I think you are more into attempting to feel morally superior to other people based on what they speculate about?

Absolutely not. If speculation were a kingdom, I would be the queen. I speculate on probably about 90% of what I discuss on ATS. I am by no means an expert at anything (well, maybe except for being a smartass...and changing diapers), nor do I purport to be such.
I would never intentionally make anyone feel that I was attempting to act morally superior in any regard whatsoever.
Please accept my sincere apology if that is how you felt.

Not only that, your account isn't even Biblical, or matching with various other religious traditions. In the Bible it clearly states that every "demon" is actually an angel that "fell from heaven".

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear on my personal terminology used in my post.
I do believe that certain evil spirits, who some interchangeably refer to as "demons," were at one time Heavenly angels. The Book of Enoch states that "demons," in particular, are the incoporeal souls/spirits of the now-deceased offspring of rebellious Heavenly angels who mated with human women. Damned by their very nature even before their physical death, and therefore subsequent to their death and upon becoming non-physical entities, damned to be a bane to human existence until the end of the age of mankind. That is one reason demons are purported to lust for a physical body---because they no longer have their own.
Having said that, I am not aware of anywhere in the Bible that specifically links demons to being one-in-the-same as fallen angels?
My personal speculation is that demons and fallen angels are most likely not the same, but more so in regard to a technicality in semantics, rather than as in a general reference to evil spirits. If that makes any sense at all.
Therefore, my references to "angels" in my previous post were to those of the Heavenly persuasion, versus those of a fallen nature, which I simply referred to as evil spirits, even though they may have been Heavenly angels at one point in time.

And it is not foolish to postulate about anything. Investigation and inquisition are the key to unlocking the truth.
There isn't even any hard evidence that these things actually exist, so I find it very difficult to heed someones warning that by reading about the history of religions or by speculating what they may insinuate, when the very object of the subject may not even exist.

I totally agree with you on all points.

Here, I'll go cower with you under the sheets and close my mind if you can do one simple thing. Provide documented evidence that Demons / Angels actually exist. Provide me the philosophical reasoning that makes it impossible for me to attribute that evidence to ghosts or aliens.
You can't.

This first part made me LOL, because I knew it would be hard for me not to give a smartass reply about joining me under the sheets. Muzzleflash & Stupid Girl arguing with each other under the bed-covers with only a flashlight for protection....lol.
Anyway, there is plenty of documented evidence---secular and nonsecular. It just depends on what one considers evidence.
My personal opinion is that ghosts, aliens, ascended masters, poltergeists, leprechauns, skin walkers, djinn, familiars, demons = they are all the same.
The sheer adaptive spectrum these entities seem to exhibit, especially cross-culturally, seems to fit the modus operandi of evil entities....which is deception.

Because the truth is we humans don't have a clue what is going on at Earth.

Perhaps, and to a certain degree I concur. However, I'd like to think that some do have a general idea.

You can believe your simplistic false spiritism all you want, but don't use it to condemn me and my search for the hidden truth about our past. I am on a mission to find out the truth, not hide in fear that the spooks might get me.

Sticks and stones, Muzzy. Sticks and stones.
Call it what you will, however I care not what other people think of my beliefs, and if someone happens to feel condemned by them, it is most assuredly not because I egregiously wield them as a weapon of accusation or dissent. I do not seek conflict. If anything, I try to be a peacemaker.
And I don't live in fear.

I am an open minded individual and I am willing to look into all beliefs and documents, no matter how "scary" others may think it is.

No problem with that. However, in my personal experience, I found that I had reached a point to where it was time to sh*t or get off the pot, so to speak. For me, it was one thing to have an open mind but at what point does it simply become fickleness and inconstancy? Capriciousness and self-indulgence in indecision?
That is the conclusion I arrived at.

(my lengthy response is continued in next post...)

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Not only that, your account isn't even Biblical, or matching with various other religious traditions. In the Bible it clearly states that every "demon" is actually an angel that "fell from heaven".

Unless you believe what the Book of Enoch says.

I haven't read the Book of Enoch yet.

Would you mind elaborating on what it's claims are in relation to this topic?

I am very curious and would like to know especially if the stated view is different.
Thanks for bringing it up, I guess I better pick this text up and read it since people keep suggesting it for me.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Speaking of Hocus Pocus, did you know that one of the theories of it's etymology is "Ochus Bachus"? A Norse magical figure believed to be derived from Bacchus, the Greek God of Wine.
Why is the Norse mythology a near mirror image of other mythologies?

Did not know that.
However, the self-proclaimed queen of speculation speculates that it is because they (mythologies) are all related one way or another, with each culture simply re-telling virtually the same information from their respective perspectives. I did not try to make that rhyme on purpose.

1) How do all of these cultures believe in the same gibberish?
2) Is it really gibberish, or are there unknown facets to this that we have not uncovered yet?
3) Is there a connection?

1) I speculate that it is because their beliefs stem from a certain, shared historical truth, which has been adulterated by cultural perspective and large quantities of time.
2) Well, I suppose it would depend on which particular beliefs you are referring to as gibberish. I feel fairly comfortable stating that there are most likely an unquantifiable number of facets that we are not privy to, most of which are probably a surplus of extraneous details that would only serve to lead one on a wild goose chase of further unproductive speculation, or the implementation of yet another new religion.
3) As I stated previously, yes, I belive there is.

Please review this the last thread I wrote: Babylon
Although a few minor corrections can be made, the overall gist of it still remains.

I will, but not tonight. It is already past my bedtime and I am getting tired.

If you want to know my personal opinion about "Demons", if they do exist, they are afraid of me because I am a seeker of good. I would never give up one ounce of my integrity or dignity to purchase power or wealth from highly questionable non-corporeal entities, especially considering the warnings about it found all throughout history.

Demons are only afraid of one thing, in-my-opinion-and-knowledge-at-this-point, the universality and consistency of which has been shown secularly and non-secularly. And it is not humans in and of themselves. However, that is not something that is related to this thread, nor something I wish to debate at the moment. And perhaps never. Not anytime soon anyway, and most certainly not on ATS.

Also "Demons" apparently don't want to be proven scientifically to the mass public. And if one started messing with me I would for sure document it and reveal the evidence to the entire world in a heartbeat. That is probably true kryptonite right there.

Of course they don't, that would only serve to bring attention to their long-standing charade. What better way to acheive your insidious endeavors, than to do so undetected? And even when detected, doubted of their sheer existence? And those that do know the Truth, to be ridiculed, shamed and ostracized by the false logic and vanity of ever-evolving "scientific" reason?

And I think they are definitely scared of Chuck Norris.

Originally posted by stupid girl

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear on my personal terminology used in my post.
I do believe that certain evil spirits, who some interchangeably refer to as "demons," were at one time Heavenly angels. The Book of Enoch states that "demons," in particular, are the incoporeal souls/spirits of the now-deceased offspring of rebellious Heavenly angels who mated with human women. Damned by their very nature even before their physical death, and therefore subsequent to their death and upon becoming non-physical entities, damned to be a bane to human existence until the end of the age of mankind. That is one reason demons are purported to lust for a physical body---because they no longer have their own.

Oh ok, yes I am familiar with this legend. I apologize because I haven't reviewed Enoch but I will get into it asap.

I also apologize for misunderstanding your statements earlier, and I mistakenly took offense that you were essentially condemning me as immoral for questioning things. My bad. (It happens a lot on ATS so I admit I kind of expect to be attacked personally).

The main point of my earlier posts in relation to the dual nature supposition was that I was merely attempting to translate or understand in lay terms, what Solomon was up to and what facets of the belief system surrounding it may possibly mean or entail.

I guess I just find it really interesting to analyze and critique historical mysticism and religion.

And I am really intrigued by the Lesser Key of Solomon and it's claims. My main reason for the level of interest is because there are many other prominent figures through history who also showed extreme interest, and this is the mystery of which I seek to unravel.

Could the Occult be attempting to use their symbols as a method to control what they call "demons" so that they can control business and government and thus the world? Who knows, it's certainly possible they "believe" that, however I am inclined to interpret it as religious fanaticism rather than legitimate method of gaining power.

What if these occultists actually believe that demons are angels and when put under control of the symbol, that they believe it makes them "angelic" or whatever? I am starting to really ponder this possibility because the information I have been uncovering seems to hint towards something like that.

Originally posted by stupid girl


This first part made me LOL, because I knew it would be hard for me not to give a smartass reply about joining me under the sheets. Muzzleflash & Stupid Girl arguing with each other under the bed-covers with only a flashlight for protection....lol.

Ooops. I totally didn't see that one coming, haha.

Remind me not to tell my wife to read this thread...

Originally posted by stupid girl

Sticks and stones, Muzzy. Sticks and stones.
Call it what you will, however I care not what other people think of my beliefs, and if someone happens to feel condemned by them, it is most assuredly not because I egregiously wield them as a weapon of accusation or dissent. I do not seek conflict.

I sincerely apologize for terming your beliefs "simplistic" as I was merely pejorative as a response to what I perceived (incorrectly) as a direct condemnation of my spiritual salvation.

I cannot say that I don't seek conflict (at least intellectually), because I do come to ATS quite a bit and get into all sorts of debates.

But in terms of ill will, I definitely do not seek to have enemies either. I hope and attempt to push myself towards being amicable and to make friends with those whom I debate with.

So really I think we just got off on the wrong foot, and I am more than willing to make amends for my mistakes.

Originally posted by stupid girl

However, the self-proclaimed queen of speculation speculates that it is because they (mythologies) are all related one way or another, with each culture simply re-telling virtually the same information from their respective perspectives. I did not try to make that rhyme on purpose.

Indeed your speculations appear to add up with all of the available evidence marvelously.

I would have to say the odds in favor of this are astronomical compared to the opposite.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Oh ok, yes I am familiar with this legend. I apologize because I haven't reviewed Enoch but I will get into it asap.

May I suggest you begin with this version:
The Lost Book of Enoch

It is the Ethiopic version (there is also a Slovanic manuscript) and although it is based on an earlier translation, it is the most easily read version in contemporary language to date.

I also apologize for misunderstanding your statements earlier, and I mistakenly took offense that you were essentially condemning me as immoral for questioning things. My bad. (It happens a lot on ATS so I admit I kind of expect to be attacked personally)

The only apologies necessary were mine. I should have been more clear on where I was coming from in my OP. Anyone who participates on ATS is questioning things, I would think that is what ultimately led them here in the first place. Therefore anyone on ATS who condemns you as being "immoral" for questioning something is only showing themselves to be an ignorant jackass. That's how I see it anyway.

The main point of my earlier posts in relation to the dual nature supposition was that I was merely attempting to translate or understand in lay terms, what Solomon was up to and what facets of the belief system surrounding it may possibly mean or entail.
I guess I just find it really interesting to analyze and critique historical mysticism and religion.
And I am really intrigued by the Lesser Key of Solomon and it's claims. My main reason for the level of interest is because there are many other prominent figures through history who also showed extreme interest, and this is the mystery of which I seek to unravel.

Solomon, huh? Whew, that's a lengthy discussion in and of itself. Not something I have the energy to get into tonight, but I will say that the things Solomon was "up to" ultimately led to his misery and demise---and that is despite the allegations of being the wisest human being on the planet. Not wiser than demons, apparently.

Could the Occult be attempting to use their symbols as a method to control what they call "demons" so that they can control business and government and thus the world? Who knows, it's certainly possible they "believe" that, however I am inclined to interpret it as religious fanaticism rather than legitimate method of gaining power.

Yes to the possibility and to even the likelihood. However, the details of such I can only speculate, which even momentary speculation I consider diversionary and a waste of effort on my part when there are so many other productive things I can focus my attention on.
And although I am the opposite of a practicioner of the occult, I do not negate the degree of power one is able to yield through it, albeit power that comes at a very hefty price. What does one benefit even by gaining the whole world, but at the cost of their soul? The world will eventually cease to exist in one way or another, but the soul will never cease to exist. I would think the earth, moon and stars, all of which will eventually pass, are a paltry recompense for even just one single soul.

What if these occultists actually believe that demons are angels and when put under control of the symbol, that they believe it makes them "angelic" or whatever? I am starting to really ponder this possibility because the information I have been uncovering seems to hint towards something like that.

I think many of them do. Whether through symbology or otherwise, I have no extensive knowledge or understanding, but I certainly acknowledge the possibilities of these types of people and the negative effects on society and mankind as a whole.

Originally posted by icepack
I was reading another thread and found this wikipedia-page about angel and demons.

en.wikipedia.org...

My question is, why are the angel and demons listed this way ? like in the first example: Vehu/Vehuiah (angel), Baal (demon). Does it mean, Vehu = Baal ? Is it the same entity ?

edit on 13-5-2012 by icepack because: (no reason given)

These are terms coined by man to describe something not of man. Father and above, does not refer to them as angels and demons. Only spirits. There are above spirits (angels), lost spirits (dead souls), and below spirits (demons).

reply to post by stupid girl


There are two different versions of Enoch, one false and one true. Those particular "angels" who procreated with man, are not allowed to roam the Earth. They are in the prison in heaven until the end. Satan is not even allowed to roam the Earth, only his "angels". They are the ones who made the decision to leave. (There are some who stay on common ground, who couldn't make a decision when it was asked of them)

reply to post by jhill76

lost spirits (dead souls)

could you explain a bit more about this ?

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by jhill76

 

lost spirits (dead souls)

could you explain a bit more about this ?

At death there are a few places you can go.
- If you are a true believer, you go above.
- If you haven't made that choice, you go sit. (Reserved for judgement)
- If you have made that choice with below, you go sit. (Reserved for the second death)

Some are given the opportunity to stay here. (Only the ones for the first two, the last option, you have no choice.)