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Angel and demon, the same "thing" ?

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posted on May, 13 2012 @ 09:18 AM
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I was reading another thread and found this wikipedia-page about angel and demons.

en.wikipedia.org...

My question is, why are the angel and demons listed this way ? like in the first example: Vehu/Vehuiah (angel), Baal (demon). Does it mean, Vehu = Baal ? Is it the same entity ?


edit on 13-5-2012 by icepack because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 13 2012 @ 09:46 AM
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Did you check the link out on The Lesser Key of Solomon ?


The first section, called Ars Goetia, contains descriptions of the seventy-two demons that Solomon is said to have evoked and confined in a brass vessel sealed by magic symbols, and that he obliged to work for him. It gives instructions on constructing a similar brass vessel, and using the proper magic formulae to safely call up those demons.

It deals with the evocation of all classes of spirits, evil, indifferent and good; its opening Rites are those of Paimon, Orias, Astaroth and the whole cohort of Infernus. The second part, or Theurgia Goëtia, deals with the spirits of the cardinal points and their inferiors. These are mixed natures, some good and some evil.[1]


So it deals with both good and evil and indifferent spirits.


The Ars Goetia assigns a rank and a title of nobility to each member of the infernal hierarchy, and gives the demons' "signs they have to pay allegiance to", or seals. The lists of entities in the Ars Goetia correspond (to high but varying degree, often according to edition) with those in Johann Weyer's Pseudomonarchia Daemonum, an appendix appearing in later editions of his De Praestigiis Daemonum, of 1563.


I found this interesting, it suggests that these "symbols" are "signs they have to pay allegiance to". That is really quite bizarre.

In contrast to Demonology is Angelology, which is in many ways a mirror opposite.
Similar in the grimoire of 72 Demons, we have 72 Angels.

Here is a link to Shemhamphorasch


The Shemhamphorasch is a corruption of the Hebrew term Shem ha-Mephorash (שם המפורש), which was used in tannaitic times to refer to the Tetragrammaton. In early Kabbalah the term was used to designate sometimes a seventy-two Letter name for God, and sometimes a forty two Letter name. Rashi said Shem ha-Mephorash was used for a forty two letter name, but Maimonides thought Shem ha-Mephorash was used only for the four letter Tetragrammaton.[1] A 216-letter name for God is found in Jewish Kabbalistic sources (mentioned by Tosafot as well as by the Kabbalists) as well as in Christian Kabbalah and in Hermetic Qabalah, derived from the 72 groups of three letters, each of these triplets being the name of an angel or intelligence. Spelling variants include Shemhamforash, Shemhamphorae, Shemhamphorash, Shemahamphorasch, Shemhamphoresh, Shem ha-Mephoresh, Shem ha-Mephorash, Shemhamphoresch, shem hamitfaresh


Ok now here is the kicker, a part I found really strange:


According to European magical tradition, King Solomon is said to have evoked seventy-two demons, confined them in a bronze vessel sealed by magic symbols, and obliged them to work for him (this belief is also derived from the Apocryphal work, "The Testament of Solomon", in which demons were brought to Solomon and he forced them to build Solomon's Temple through the use of magic rings). These demons are catalogued in various magical grimoires, most notably in the Lemegeton, which gives descriptions of their powers, appearance and manner, as well as instructions for controlling them.[3]Based on the opinions of some who seek to find consistency of this association with the Shemhamphorasch, these demons may be sigils based on the reversing of the three lettered names of the angels. Using the reverse names and sigils, one would be able to call on the various demons for various favors which may result in destructive events.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 09:50 AM
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This part really got me thinking , from the Wiki link above:


n art the Shemhamphorasch can be seen on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Michelangelo's fresco has an architectural design of 24 columns. On each of these columns are two cherubs, which are mirror imaged on the adjoining column totaling 48 cherubs figures. Then on the 12 triangular spandrels flanking the ceiling borders are an additional 24 nude figures (two bronze nude figures per triangular spandrel) also mirroring imaging each other. This totals to 72 cherub figures or the 72 angels of God or names of God. This spread of 48 cherubs and 24 bronze nude figures coincides perfectly with the reading of the three verses in Exodus 14:19-21. Beneath this cycle of angels are 7 prophets and 5 Sibylline oracles, which are patterned after the Zodiac/Calendar year. Beneath that are the 33 ancestors of Christ plus 3 additional symbols denoting the 36 decans of the Zodiac.[6] It is interesting to note that the Zodiac/Calendar year and the 36 decans coupled with the numerical sequence in the Empyream (nine central panels) on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel denote the spread of the 56 Minor Arcana Tarot Cards.


This is in the Sistine Chapel?
I never heard about the 33 ancestors of Christ.
I'm going to have to look into this deeper this is new to me.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 09:58 AM
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reply to post by icepack
 


You will probably like this little tidbit.

From the Wiki on the Demon known as Furfur


In demonology, Furfur (other spelling: Furtur) is a powerful Great Earl of Hell, being the ruler of twenty-nine legions of demons. He is a liar unless compelled to enter a magic triangle where he gives true answers to every question, speaking with a rough voice. Furfur causes love between a man and a woman, creates storms, tempests, thunder, lightning, and blasts, and teaches on secret and divine things. He is depicted as a hart or winged hart, and also as an angel. To some authors he changes from hart into angel when compelled to enter the magic triangle.


So some authors apparently describe this "Demon" as changing into an "Angel" when certain conditions are met. I have never heard of this before, but some people obviously suggest such things.

Of course with a topic like this there will be a lot of difference between various sources, however I do believe that this particular statement about the entity shifting from evil to good under specific conditions really ties in well with the information I posted above.

Essentially it is claimed that the application of a "symbol that the entity pays allegiance to" can cause it to potentially exhibit mirror image opposite characteristics.
Them seems clear for Furfur, but I will look into the others and see if there are also similar correlations we can build upon.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 10:19 AM
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Here is another Demon I randomly picked, Kimaris.


In Harleian Ms. 6482, entitled "The Rosie Crucian Secrets",[2] Thomas Rudd lists Cimeries as the 26th spirit made use of by King Solomon. He also attributes an angel Cimeriel to one of Dee's Enochian Ensigns of Creation, the tablet of 24 mansions.[3] The earliest mention of Chamariel is in Rossi's Gnostic tractate.[4] It is probable that the earliest mention of Kimaris is also Coptic, found in the London oriental mss 6796 where the name "Akathama Chamaris" appears.[5] In this text, the entity in question does not appear to be evil; rather, he is addressed as a godlike helping spirit.


So here again we are faced with great confusion between the positive and negative.

It does appear that each Demon / Angel combo is actually a dual purpose entity.
The sigil/name of the Angel reversed equates to the Demon's sigil/name.
We have these conjurers reporting that many of these "Demons" can be compelled to act as "Angels".

I have some theories/questions I would like to throw out there for the time being about this issue.

What if they are actually dual figures and are technically one in the same? That each Demon corresponds directly with an Angel so closely that they may even embody the same spirit.
Similar to the Baphomet depictions, hermaphrodite , light and dark, above and below, etc.

Almost all of these ancient symbols or motifs seem to be promoting a dual nature scheme where opposites play upon each other directly. The Yin Yang derives from a similar concept of a play upon opposing forces.

This practice was commonplace in mythological systems, where the pantheons were juxtaposed with their opposing forces.

Another really interesting point is that historically Mithra is also a similar multi-purpose entity. I will dig up a quote I posted in another thread :

Continued in next post so I can faithfully repost my entire comment.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 10:21 AM
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Ok check out this book: "Suns of God".

It says that Mithraism, along pages 125-126, revered Mithra/Mithres/Mithras as the "Sun God" in ancient Persia.

It talks about how in the 8th century, the Assyrians under Shalmaneser V took over Samaria and deported the tribes.


The name Shalmaneser is used for him in the Bible, which attributes to him and his father the deportation of the "Ten Lost Tribes" of Israel. In the 17th and 18th chapters of 2 Kings he is described as the conqueror of Samaria and as sending its inhabitants into exile


"Samaria" = West Bank = Ancient capitol of Kingdom of Israel in antiquity Samaria (ancient city wiki).

It states that Mithra was also the sun god of Cyrus the Great the founder of the Achaemenid Empire, "The First Persian Empire". That's roughly two centuries after the Assyrians conquered Samaria and the Israelites were deported, (8th to 6th centuries BC). Take notice of the maps, photos, etc, on the wiki.

Alright back to the source book I linked, it then states that Mithra was considered the Messiah or Christos by Jews during the historical "Captivity" from 586-538 BC.

Then it continues, that Mithraism was the royal cult under Artaxerxes I of the Achaemenid Persians, and this continued after Alexander the Great overthrew the Persians and this region then became the Seleucid Empire.

It states that "reliefs of the tomb of the King Antiochus IV Epiphanes" demonstrate Mithraic influence.

Please continue onward this gets really good.
It claims that Herodotus the acclaimed Greek historian, wrote in the 5th century BC of the 'Persians', "worship the sun, moon, and earth, fire, water, and winds", as Mithra, and then it equates this with "Aphrodite" (very important clue), and the Arabian Alilat.

Then it says that Mithra was considered bi-gender or hermaphrodite (hermes + aphrodite), "Mithra the Persian deity was both God and Goddess".

It then goes on to talk about how monuments can be found from India to Scotland, and that it is quote "the most nearly universal religion in the Western world".

This is very interesting because remember the influence that "Baphomet" had on the medieval Christian Orders allegedly. Baphomet was essentially an equivalent of sorts to Mithra. Hermaphrodite, represents the multitude of aspects, positive and negative, astrological, etc.

The outright flavor of Mithraism, which was relatively rare due to the historical secrecy, supposedly even became the official religion again for a brief moment right after after Constantine established Christianity as the official religion.

Julian the Apostate , Roman Emperor 361-363 AD , attempted to bring Mithra back. (It was very short lived), and this may have even been designed as a false ploy, in my opinion, by the Mithraic cult itself to fool the people into thinking "Nicaean doctrine of official Roman Christianity" was actually separate from the "Mithraic polytheism". This could have been effective as a means to create false differences between the two systems, and made 'official' Roman Christianity even more appealing to the unwitting masses. That's just a hunch.

Read this section on Julian the Apostate
He made all religions legal, and it claims this was a ploy to reinstate outright traditional pagan polytheism.

But get this: Julian the Apostate wanted to rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.
According to Ammianus Marcellinus:

Julian thought to rebuild at an extravagant expense the proud Temple once at Jerusalem, and committed this task to Alypius of Antioch. Alypius set vigorously to work, and was seconded by the governor of the province; when fearful balls of fire, breaking out near the foundations, continued their attacks, till the workmen, after repeated scorchings, could approach no more: and he gave up the attempt



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 10:37 AM
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Ok about the post I put above this, where I go into the history of Mithra a little, notice that it comes right back to the Temple of Solomon.

And also notice, that it was the Mithraic cult which wanted to rebuild this temple. Why?

Could it be that they are secretly practicing very similar belief systems (Solomon vs Mithra Cult) and it was just not admitted as common knowledge?

Again back to Baphomet, another "all encompassing deity" which became known during the medieval period, and 'coincidentally' exhibits many of the same characteristics as Mithra.

Hopefully the pattern is now becoming visible:

72 Demons / Angels ----> Solomon's Temple
Mithra ----> Solomon's Temple
Templars / Baphomet ----> Solomon's Temple

Obviously there is something really important about this Solomon's Temple!



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 

Thank you very much for your effort and all the information you posted.

Very interesting topic, if you imagine these kind of beings invisible and something totally different than humans. I heard about realms, where these beings exist. could it have to do with vibrations ? Like, higher realms, higher vibration = angel and the other way round ?
I will continue to work through the information you provided, thanks again.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 10:50 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Many of the demons in Solomon's encounters are of Greek, Jewish, Christian, Arabic, and other traditions. Most of the rest of the work contains Solomon's interviews with the demons, some of whom are quite grotesque

Interesting, he interviewed the demons. I wonder how king Solomon managed to let these demons serve him. Normally angels serve and demons' services always comes with a price or twist. Did Solomon pay a price or was it gratis ?



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 10:53 AM
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"It claims that Herodotus the acclaimed Greek historian, wrote in the 5th century BC of the 'Persians', "worship the sun, moon, and earth, fire, water, and winds", as Mithra, and then it equates this with "Aphrodite" (very important clue), and the Arabian Alilat. "

From my post above.

Ok so Mithra is equated to Aphrodite - Alilat? Allah?

Now check this out, the Wiki on Baphomet suggests one origin of the word is "Mohammad" and it is mistranslated, and could explain why the Templars picked it up in the East.

Quote from wiki :

Gauserand de Montpesant, a knight of Provence, said that their superior showed him an idol made in the form of Baffomet; another, named Raymond Rubei, described it as a wooden head, on which the figure of Baphomet was painted, and adds, "that he worshipped it by kissing its feet, and exclaiming, 'Yalla,' which was," he says, "verbum Saracenorum," a word taken from the Saracens. A templar of Florence declared that, in the secret chapters of the order, one brother said to the other, showing the idol, "Adore this head—this head is your god and your Mahomet."[21]


Ok so he shouted "Yalla" as he kissed the idol? Allah?

Here is evidence that the Arabs did indeed call Aphrodite Urania as "Alilat":
Aphrodite Urania wiki

Now please take note : Many Occult groups today refer to "Lucifer" as the "Morning Star"
However, Venus (Aphrodite) is also the "Morning Star".
Phosphorus (morning star)


Another Greek name for the Morning Star is Ἑωσφόρος (Heōsphoros), which means "Dawn-Bringer". The form Eosphorus is sometimes met in English, as if from Ἠωσφόρος (Ēōsphoros), which is not actually found in Greek literature,[1] but would be the form that Ἑωσφόρος would have in some dialects. The Latin name Lucifer is an exact translation of the Greek term Φωσφόρος. In Isaiah 14:12, the Septuagint version uses the word "Ἑωσφόρος" (Heosphoros) and the Vulgate "Lucifer" to translate Hebrew Helel (Venus as the brilliant, bright or shining one), "son of Shahar (Dawn)"


Lucifer in Latin translates to mean "Light Bringer" or "Dawn Bringer".
Venus is the Morning Star which is the Lucifer.
I am under the impression that they also called Torches and Candles "Lucifers" as well.


In Latin, from which the English word is derived, Lucifer (as a noun) means "light-bearer" (from the words lucem ferre). It was the name given to the Morning Star, i.e. the planet Venus when seen at dawn.

Lucifer wiki



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Many of the demons in Solomon's encounters are of Greek, Jewish, Christian, Arabic, and other traditions. Most of the rest of the work contains Solomon's interviews with the demons, some of whom are quite grotesque

Interesting, he interviewed the demons. I wonder how king Solomon managed to let these demons serve him. Normally angels serve and demons' services always comes with a price or twist. Did Solomon pay a price or was it gratis ?




What if Demons are Angels, or vice versa?
And what if the secret Solomon discovered was to force them into their Angelic states?


I don't really know I am just speculating. But it is an interesting thought.
edit on 13-5-2012 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 11:02 AM
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Why would Herodotus equate Mithra with Aphrodite - Alilat?
Why would Templars supposedly have an idol named Baphomet that equates with Mithra?
Why was Baphomet equated with Mohammed and Alilat equated with Allah?
Why is Aphrodite being considered an all encompassing pantheon figure?
Is Mithra actually the Aphrodite/Lucifer?

Why was Solomon conjuring dual nature spirits?

Why do all of these groups have a fascination with Solomon's Temple?
How do they all connect to the conjuring of spirits and the number 72?

These are questions I hope others will ask and will conduct their own investigations.


edit on 13-5-2012 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by muzzleflash
 

Thank you very much for your effort and all the information you posted.

Very interesting topic, if you imagine these kind of beings invisible and something totally different than humans. I heard about realms, where these beings exist. could it have to do with vibrations ? Like, higher realms, higher vibration = angel and the other way round ?
I will continue to work through the information you provided, thanks again.


Well that's an interesting suggestion.

If it were something akin to "vibrations" for lack of a better term, than it would seem logical that an entity may be subject to vibration changes. Many people believe they can lower or increase their vibration frequency, so why couldn't other entities do it as well?

It would actually explain in a way, how Solomon could control the Demon/Angel entities. By controlling their vibration through "symbols".
edit on 13-5-2012 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 

How can a human (Solomon) force these entities ? Is a "big" spirit of a person necessary ? Has this person to be spiritual strong ? Or was Solomon under the influence of certain spirits ? Maybe God or the devil was directing through Solomon. I cannot imagine a human having such powers.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 

Interesting. How come symbols have such a power ? You said, these beings are somehow attached to symbols, i don't understand the technique. Were these beings "programmed" through the time of their existence ?



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by muzzleflash
 

How can a human (Solomon) force these entities ? Is a "big" spirit of a person necessary ? Has this person to be spiritual strong ? Or was Solomon under the influence of certain spirits ? Maybe God or the devil was directing through Solomon. I cannot imagine a human having such powers.



Perhaps the powers stem not from the conjurer, but from the method of conjuring?
It's a possibility worth consideration.

Remember, symbolism is very important to this 'rite', as the symbol is what the spirit pays allegiance to, and if you wield that symbol appropriately, you can gain control over the target entity.

Keep in mind that many more prominent Occult groups revere Solomon intensely and consider him to be a very prominent central figure in their ideologies.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by muzzleflash
 

Interesting. How come symbols have such a power ? You said, these beings are somehow attached to symbols, i don't understand the technique. Were these beings "programmed" through the time of their existence ?



I have no idea honestly. This is a question I have pondered for a very long time and have not come up with any decent scientific explanations.

I haven't lost hope at coming up with explanations, it is just it is difficult and taxing to develop anything which can bypass my initial criticisms.

You know my gut instinct tells us that we should go study so called 'sacred geometry' and the Kabbalah more closely.

Oh and Phosphorus the name used for the planet Venus (Morning Star), has the word Horus at the end of it. Horus?

It all connects in tons of ways.

I could go pasting snippets showing how Horus /Osiris (more dual nature pantheon scale deities) can also be drawn directly into this really bizarre occult cluster**. I gotta eat dinner though, so check out the article.

Also btw, the Horus and Mithra motifs can be directly connected to Tammuz as well.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 11:56 AM
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In demonology, Furfur (other spelling: Furtur) is a powerful Great Earl of Hell, being the ruler of twenty-nine legions of demons. He is a liar unless compelled to enter a magic triangle where he gives true answers to every question, speaking with a rough voice. Furfur causes love between a man and a woman, creates storms, tempests, thunder, lightning, and blasts, and teaches on secret and divine things. He is depicted as a hart or winged hart, and also as an angel. To some authors he changes from hart into angel when compelled to enter the magic triangle.



I'm going to surround my house with magic triangles. They are the demons' kryptonite. I remember this one time I was fighting a demon, and I held up my fingers in the shape of a triangle (kinda like when I hold up my fingers in the shape of a cross when I'm fighting vampires), and then said "Abbah Kadabrah!!" and the demon is all like, "Ah shiznit, now I can't do anything."
edit on 13-5-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash


In demonology, Furfur (other spelling: Furtur) is a powerful Great Earl of Hell, being the ruler of twenty-nine legions of demons. He is a liar unless compelled to enter a magic triangle where he gives true answers to every question, speaking with a rough voice.



All demons are liars.
And the most misleading and deceptive lies are those laced with a bit of truth, but only for the sake of lending legitimacy and glorification to the lie.




Furfur causes love between a man and a woman, creates storms, tempests, thunder, lightning, and blasts, and teaches on secret and divine things.


Possibly also related to the meanings of "furor" (frenzy, commotion, turmoil) and "fervor" (ardor, passion, zeal)? Just a thought...



He is depicted as a hart or winged hart, and also as an angel. To some authors he changes from hart into angel when compelled to enter the magic triangle.



Evil spirits run the gambit when it comes to appearance. Whatever is necessary for them to gain the advantage in their ploy to deceive. Including the often reported ruse as an "angel of light."

It is foolishness to postulate evil spirits being one and the same as angelic entities. For starters, whomever chooses to believe that becomes the poster-child for the folly of man and enslaves himself to demonic deception, thus only serving to fulfill the scheming strategem of evil spirits. I cringe at the thought of someone being as dumb and ignorant as they expect us to be.
Secondly, just as evil spirits are the opposite of angelic spirits, so are the differences in how they are able, or how they so choose, to manifest themselves. Meaning, evil spirits ultimately choose how they want to appear. Which is in direct contrast to angelic spirits, which can only manifest themselves in a way that serves God's purpose---because that's their purpose.
The Greek word in the New Testament for "angel" is "angelos," which means "a messenger." The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament for "angel" is "malach," meaning "servant." Heavenly angels therefore are servant messengers sent forth by God for specific tasks related solely to Him.
To my knowledge, Heavenly angels have always and will only appear in male humanoid form. Thus with that rationale, anything appearing in any form other than that is not a "good" spirit.
Also of note insomuch as a contrast to evil spirits, Heavenly angels typically don't hang around for a particularly significant amount of time, nor do they regularly "check-in" or maintain an ongoing "relationship" with humans.
They can be likened to me on the nights I have to give my kids a late bath---all business....in, out, no fooling around, just taking care of the task at hand because there are plenty more tasks that I've got to accomplish before the end of the day. Or even more so to how I am when I call my mother---Hey, how you been, this is why I called, this is what I needed to say, any quick questions? take care, love you, bye.



posted on May, 13 2012 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by Hydroman
 


Silly rabbit, everybody knows demonic kryptonite is butter and bacon.
And Chuck Norris.



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