Desire feeds Suffering and Suffering feeds Desire (an exercise in logical deduction)

As with anything, there are variables to the quandry. However, I do desire to have a bigger house, a car that has a price tag of $50,000.00+, etc.yet, I am not suffering because I desire these things for which i do not have. So in that respect, I can honestly say no, desire does not create suffering.

Buddah did snuff out the "so called energy of desire" its those who do it and dont do it


Here's the thing, desire is caused by materialistic things, obviously no one on ats has won this front, you still have a computer, electricity.

Desire is taking a reward that is not earned. There are four ways to receive a desired change in states. A changed state represents the positive or negative balance of substance or spirit.

1) We can earn the changed state by work.

2) We can steal the changed state as a thief.

3) We can find a changed state for free.

4) We can be given a changed state.

All changed states cause a debt. Debt belongs to someone along the line of change. Debt must be paid.

Taking reward represents number 2. Smoke and you get cancer. Taking a desired reward always causes a debt to be suffered. On the other hand, suffer for the reward and earn what is received. This is number 1 on the list above. Work at an education and receive a degree. Work a job and get a paycheck. Suffering always causes a reward. Ironically, when we take a reward, the suffering on the other end also causes an eventual reward if the suffering changes the desire to steal reward.

Only one direction of suffering produces lasting fulfillment of desire with true reward. The direction looks like this.

Take Reward -----------> Suffering / Suffer by Giving --------------> Reward and fulfilled desire

The point of making life work toward continual positive benefit is to suffer on purpose as a way to earn what is received. Some people are lucky enough to find reward. Some people are given reward. The only reward that fulfills desire is the one we earn on the path of suffering the journey to find the pride of a job well done.

I can see that you are trying to describe to people the failures of the mind as the driving force behind any and all actions, and that actions taking place in the mind will lead to suffering. This is true, and i would like to expand on this by providing the perspective of the I or the see'er (Christ, consciousness, god or any other name it has been given).

To remove an attachment from the mind through meditative practice allows us to find and attach to a new perspective of reality, this perspectives originates outside of the mind and if allowed to develop like a muscle, it becomes stronger until the perspective from this view provides the see'er with new mental tools to view reality through that have strengthened intution, stronger feelings of peace and connectedness and if developed further, continues into a perspective that shifts into the higher dimensions of reality, as we are conscious enough to perceive reality in this way. This is the basic premise of seeing something from a new "dimension". It's a shift of our conscious focus from a new perspective we could not see before. The pro's to shifting into pure consciousness are many, but one of them is the development of superior mental faculties that must be experienced to be fully understood, these mental faculties process information much quicker than thinking them through in the mind and as a result, better decision making processes take place, or rather, they don't take place, a situation is simply comprehended.

When we look down from this perspective and are no longer driven by the mind, an immense amount of learning takes place and the suffering we've experienced courtesy of our association with the mind becomes apparent. I must stress that experience is of more value than studying the topic, and experiencing life through consciousness is hidden from us day to day as our focus is normally filtered through a psychological gym we have developed for ourselves in the mind. A fight then must take place between the unconscious and the conscious part of ourselves, the unconscious being the mind and the conscious being the real "I" or the "see'er". Both available for our attention to strengthen the association with. When you are born, you are mostly consciousness, as your brain develops your association with the mind becomes stronger as it jostles into place for your attention. It then develops and swallows you like a giant sink hole that you can either let take over or, as our brothers on the Tibetan hilltops have discovered, disassociate with the mind, climb out of the sink hole and associate with the superiority of our consciousness. I would like to expand on the qualities of living life through the mind and how it compares to consciousness more, but it is for another thread.

A tangible, definable "I" does lie beyond the mind, finding it and strengthening it is your task here at this juncture.

It is difficult to describe how one experiences reality without the use of the mind, as mentioned it is something that needs to be experienced to be understood. Just as you need a loved one to see the view from the mountain you climbed for themselves, as the words do not do it justice.

Happy to expand on this in any way i can, this is an enormous study that spawns off into many different areas.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


u r meaning the same that what u r adressing

to u, they say desire is positive
so u reply, desire is suffer

both of u are seeking positive existence to define as an absolute way to sell to everyone as positive knowledge
so u might get paid subjectively of being some worth

i keep repeating that truth is objective superiority freedom so u cant limits it as if smthg is its source, while any is surely of truth reasons

like suffer can b right, when for instance a will is insisting to stand for true rights abused then truth is alive from there which is the most positive fact when it is of positive source
the fact that truth is moving next to lies is the sign of lies end

desire also can b right, when individual existence is a fact constant for watever time, then objective desires are a must to stay free while dealing with else superiority constantly

reply to post by absolutely


You do keep repeating 'that truth is objective superiority freedom', however no one knows what this means! Can you please say it in a way that can be understood by the majority?

reply to post by raiden12

A tangible, definable "I" does lie beyond the mind, finding it and strengthening it is your task here at this juncture.

It is difficult to describe how one experiences reality without the use of the mind, as mentioned it is something that needs to be experienced to be understood. Just as you need a loved one to see the view from the mountain you climbed for themselves, as the words do not do it justice.

Happy to expand on this in any way i can, this is an enormous study that spawns off into many different areas.

I find, I lose, I re-find, I forget and then I remember. So, a question: people use the word 'mind' as if it is generally understood what it is. The same with the word 'ego'. Something lies beyond the mind....okay. But what is mind?
I am more interested in what mind is than what is beyond it. Because once I understand what mind is, what gives it momentum and where its boundaries are, then I reason that I will be able to see what lies beyond those boundaries - beyond the periphery of it. Also people ask: "what is the origin of the soul?" I ask: "what is the origin of the mind?" and "What is its function and purpose?"

Thank you for offering to expand on this subject raiden12, after all, it's a life or death issue.

reply to post by raiden12


smthg cannot b at the same time good and bad as a constant thing regarding what uses it

it shows how u reason of one only so u cant mean existence

u r also a thing when u mean a thing, bc a thing is its freedom which is the only reason of its constancy

so what is a mind? a mind is simply what individual freedom need to stay still as existing when existence is free fact

then mind is objective tool, when it concerns standing out of objective superiority

that is why what u meant is not the mind, what one think of himself has nothing to do with mind, what one want what one see what one think...all that is the free will not the mind
the mind is not one it is a neutral objective tool, that freedom stand back only from knowing that it must deal with else
the mind is never about u
a mind in absolute terms is always about urself reality in objective terms

but again i repeat, u dont believe that there is any but u, that is why u should not exist u dont have the standard needed for

reply to post by Golden Rule


No problem, i can identify with the struggle that takes place internally as you learn, forget, wake and then fall asleep - it's the constant battle of God vs Satan, good vs evil.

The mind and the physical body allows for the expression of the ego's, the ego's are the energy drives that push the automation of nature, you can see these ego's in the animal kingdom driving the behavior of animals. Fear, lust, pride and a number of others, if you watch an animal you will see they have no direct control over these forces, they simply react based on them. Most people do not understand the ego's energetic influence in animals and the expression of them within the body and mind. The ego's automate the cycle of nature so that it continues until a self conscious being is produced, the self conscious being can then choose to be driven by the same energies or search for a new self outside of the ego's and the mind.

Once the consciousness is found (through meditative and awareness practices), you have started the journey many others before you have undertaken which is the battle to remove ourselves from the physical body, from the ego, from time and associate with the consciousness and it's superior qualities.

A hypothetical situation...

A husband returns home from work to find his wife has not prepared a meal for him, his wife had been at the hospital most of the day as her mother had fallen ill. The husband is hungry and looking forward to his meal during the trip home and is angry to find there is no meal waiting for him. Immediately in his mind he has the following thoughts "Why is my meal not ready?", "I expected to have something waiting for me", "My wife is always letting me down". There may or may not be any conscious awareness of these thoughts going through his mind, he may simply be a slave to these thoughts, these thoughts then produce sensations of anger which he then acts on as it is simply too overwhelming. He yells at his partner and storms out of the house in a fit of rage. He receives a message from his partner that she had been in hospital all day and only just got home. Then, he receives sensations of guilt and remorse from his actions.

This is a rather crude example i know, but effective.

How would someone pursuing a life of spirituality handle this situation?

The husband would arrive home to find his dinner had not been cooked, due to his meditative practice earlier and his willingness to ensure he is not acting from the mind he is observing each and every thought and sensation in his mind and body. He observes the following thoughts "Why is my meal not ready?", "I expected to have something waiting for me", "My wife is always letting me down". He then applies whatever spiritual method learned to dissociate and destroy these thoughts and looks deeper for the driving forces behind those thoughts, he feels some anger and applies his spiritual methods to destroy it before it can expand further. He would then meditate later in the evening to look for any earlier thoughts or feelings that could have contributed which he finds were thoughts in the car on the way home of an expectation of food. Thus he learns from the experience and has not acted inappropriately during this situation and is free from the ego's and the mind. If he applied the spiritual methods correctly, he will have destroyed the ability for these thought forms to come up again, like destroying the roots of a tree, and can not be dragged back down into the unconscious again via the same route. The consciousness is then strengthened, and he takes one step closer to strengthening his true self.
He then reacts with affection towards his wife as his true self in the consciousness contains the qualities of love. Love can be produced by thoughts in the mind, but the quality of that love is no comparison to love produced by the consciousness.

The ego's are looking for your attention for strength, they will grow like a tree in your mind until they reach the surface and become emotions so they are acted on. When merge into consciousness, we replace their ability to grow within us and replace the emotions that would arise as a result of the produced thought forms. Peace, love, intuition are all qualities of the consciousness.

The path to the consciousness is a path into the present moment, the present moment then leads to eternity as our focus expands to encompass each moment in more and more detail until it becomes obvious that there is more to see beyond a single moment in time. Understanding how to see beyond time is a quality of having our focus in our consciousness and it's origins in the higher dimensions. I mentioned the quality of love being more intense in consciousness, this is true, it is also why during intense feelings of love such as your first kiss, time seems to go very slowly or stop, as you rapidly shift your focus to this intense love with it's origins in your consciousness beyond time. It's direct opposite is in the mind and the automation of life through the ego's, this accelerates time removing us from the present moment. This is why when people voluntarily give up control of their thought process and do not take responsibility for their own awareness they feel time is speeding up as they get older. They are quite simply observing less of each moment.

Our human body minds boundary is when you voluntarily give up your conscious focus on your thoughts and actions ensuring the consciousness is the true captain of the vessel.

The difference then between the qualities of being in consciousness and being driven by the mind/ego's is the learning experience. As you learn more and strengthen your consciousness more you will become more intuitive and pick up information you would normally miss when your are not as conscious. It is very difficult when you first start, but as you progress you pick up momentum like a snowball.

For me personally, i follow Gnosis, or the study of direct experience. It sat well with me that they only pursued that which they could experience and learn from, than a belief system. I will then advise you just as it was advised to me, that the information provided is only to get you started on a journey that you ultimately have to decide is right for you or not, and then with enough experience you will be able to discern what is and is not true for yourself without needing to follow anyone else. Again this sat well with me.

There is a lot more of this type of information here: gnosticteachings.org...

reply to post by raiden12

No problem, i can identify with the struggle that takes place internally as you learn, forget, wake and then fall asleep - it's the constant battle of God vs Satan, good vs evil.

This battle...is it a different interpretation of what the O.P. sees as the relationship between desire and suffering?

I found it interesting what you wrote in relation to time consciousness and suffering and how the velocity of time seems to increase as people age.

There is another hypothetical situation...

A husband returns home early to find his wife in bed with his boss..

Would you say that Gurdjieff's understanding is very Gnostic in as much as he remarked that there is no soul until it is created through meditation, otherwise there is no soul waiting as a free gift after death?

Is this the piece by piece soul harvesting that you refer to below?

Once the consciousness is found (through meditative and awareness practices), you have started the journey many others before you have undertaken which is the battle to remove ourselves from the physical body, from the ego, from time and associate with the consciousness and it's superior qualities.

Thanks for the Gnosis link. I found this statement from the site very interesting and well noted:

Black Magic appeals to the mass mind. It appeals to the principles of our civilization. It offers something for nothing. As long as there is cupidity in the human heart, it will remain as a menace to the honesty and integrity of our race. - Manly P. Hall from Magic: a Treatise on Esoteric Ethics

gnosticteachings.org...

it is amazing how u love to try confusing ur subjective life with truth the more u become constant conscious existence

since when a man that expect his wife to prepare meals is a normal man ?? it is a sick animal from that fact for sure so how that u r suggesting it to meditate

any normal man enjoy making his dinner with his own hands, man by definition is free so hate to lean on anyone else especially for his constant needs

it says how all now is evil so opposite to truth fundamentally

in truth, man is the individual freedom that is out of true superior perspective of truth existence in abstract objective terms
woman is the individual value that is out of true superior perspective of truth existence in concrete objective terms

that is how man so individually sees himself objectively as nothing
while women individually sees herself objectively as someone

while since truth is infinite superiority of freedom values a man if he realizes himself according to abstract objective superiority he would become true, which is beyond anyone as constant infinite superiority

while a woman if she realizes herself according to concrete objective superiority she would become absolute free value but only one herself realisation

it is two different ways according to positive free wills, freedom that are driven to stay free but superior freedom and freedom that are driven to exist so superior object

while now genders are the opposite

men are meaning to pretend superiority to possess objects life
and women are meaning to pretend inferiority to b free of everything

so women are what suggest loving to b free, which is a lie since they are just suggesting it on purpose
and men are what suggest loving things life, which is a lie since they are forcing it to act above

Originally posted by absolutely
it is amazing how u love to try confusing ur subjective life with truth the more u become constant conscious existence

since when a man that expect his wife to prepare meals is a normal man ?? it is a sick animal from that fact for sure so how that u r suggesting it to meditate

any normal man enjoy making his dinner with his own hands, man by definition is free so hate to lean on anyone else especially for his constant needs

it says how all now is evil so opposite to truth fundamentally

in truth, man is the individual freedom that is out of true superior perspective of truth existence in abstract objective terms
woman is the individual value that is out of true superior perspective of truth existence in concrete objective terms

that is how man so individually sees himself objectively as nothing
while women individually sees herself objectively as someone

while since truth is infinite superiority of freedom values a man if he realizes himself according to abstract objective superiority he would become true, which is beyond anyone as constant infinite superiority

while a woman if she realizes herself according to concrete objective superiority she would become absolute free value but only one herself realisation

it is two different ways according to positive free wills, freedom that are driven to stay free but superior freedom and freedom that are driven to exist so superior object

while now genders are the opposite

men are meaning to pretend superiority to possess objects life
and women are meaning to pretend inferiority to b free of everything

so women are what suggest loving to b free, which is a lie since they are just suggesting it on purpose
and men are what suggest loving things life, which is a lie since they are forcing it to act above

what?

2nd what?

All I got from that is men pretend to be superior so they can control and women pretend to be inferior so they don't have to do anything.

if men are pretending to be superior so that they can control everything... and they have succeeded in history as is shown, then women can't be PRETENDING can they? they are simply reflecting what is apparent in their reality.

furthermore... because they wish to be free of everything?

come on... women bind themselves to responsibility more than what you are willing to accept.

how many women compared to men up and leave their children?

Originally posted by rom12345
2 of the

The Four Noble Truths

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

Not so much desire, as it is needed.
It is attachment that causes suffering.

edit on 12-5-2012 by rom12345 because: (no reason given)

Of course, attachment causes suffering not desire.
Desire or wanting are the motivation to live, to create, to evolve, to change, to do, to act.
Without wanting there is no creation, therefore there is no life...

Attachment happens when people get emotionally dependent of something they cant control.
I only feel good if:
- the sun shines;
- I am healthy;
- Get a good job;
- I have a preety girlfriend;
- I have a ferrari;
- I make a lot of money;
- i have sex at least twice a week;
etc etc etc
But... if you want all these things and you can feel good without them, then you are not attached (addicted), therefore this wanting doesn't cause suffering, it causes passion and enthusiasm, the thrill to conquer, to work, to deserve.
Isn't that what life is all about?

Originally posted by NotAnAspie

All I got from that is men pretend to be superior so they can control and women pretend to be inferior so they don't have to do anything.

if men are pretending to be superior so that they can control everything... and they have succeeded in history as is shown, then women can't be PRETENDING can they? they are simply reflecting what is apparent in their reality.

furthermore... because they wish to be free of everything?

come on... women bind themselves to responsibility more than what you are willing to accept.

how many women compared to men up and leave their children?

u r stupid bc u mean to use my words for smthg else u r selling it for ur life, while my words have a value that u cant respect while only stupid can step on objective facts

the more u r a will the more u can pretend any, women as women not as humans are all liars, which is not their fault nor men fault, it is the condition to judge the only way if u dont choose to be human so nowomenormen identity of condition

ur children coming out of ur belly is part of u, so not smthg u r responsable of but smthg that u live through

how many men compared to women dont support others in needs and think issues for public benefits or move positively to end conflicts and restore peace ?

when a woman is by definition synonyme to beauty it says how it focus on its freedom of everything to live through the self achievement of a figure that could b credible according to its reputation of being a woman

Mods... overlooking the name calling, this person is clearly trolling and trying to derail the thread into yet another sexist issue. Furthermore, how can they really expect anyone to understand any of this?

TROLL ALERT... this poster needs a babysitter.

on the contrary mods, the issue of gender as i said it is at the heart of the op question

women positive desire lead them to face others faces much better then them so they suffer moarn constantly of that fact

men superior desire lead them to become slaves of others superiors and to act that fact which make them suffer and moarn also a lot unconsciously

If anybody cared to try to translate it they'd see that a minute ago you were trying to slam on genders.

You are lucky *I* read this even.

I on the other hand,I am not... but fortunately, it makes absolutely no difference to anything in this world anyway.

have a nice day.

reply to post by NotAnAspie


the op slam on everyone through all desires and all suffers

Originally posted by absolutely
reply to post by NotAnAspie

 

the op slam on everyone through all desires and all suffers

I know this is probably supposed to be relevant or something but...


yeeeah...