Continuing:

We have determined that desire is being dissatisfied with what is, and thus wanting what currently is not. Now, say we get what is not, and make it what is. In other words, say we get what we desire. I want a new car because I am not satisfied with my current one, so I buy a new car. I want a better philosophy on life because I am not satisfied with my current one, so I think of a new one. Now I have what I want, I have fulfilled my desire. But what happens when that car gets a dent in it or ends up being outdated quickly by next years model which has a brand new innovative design and a bigger engine, all for the same price? What happens when my philosophy on life is proven to have holes in it? Do I not feel dissatisfaction; angst, restlessness, anxiety, unhappiness, frustration, distress, annoyance and/or uneasiness? And isn't this suffering?

Hopefully we are in agreement on these points so far. I can think of only one counter-argument to this, and that is, “desire does not lead to suffering but craving does, and desire and craving are not the same.” In fact, I have heard this argument many times, and it really is the only good argument one can make at this juncture. Unfortunately, for the person making it, it is just not a good enough argument to be accepted as true. Why do I say this?

Desire leads to craving, in every circumstance. This is the way our brains are set up, experience causes neurological firings of the brain to function in a certain pattern and that pattern then conditions the brain. In other words, experience conditions the brain to seek or not seek that experience again, dependent on whether or not the experience was viewed as pleasant or unpleasant. In this function, desire is the push to experience something while craving is the conditioning that results from that experience. Here are a few examples of how this might work:

Example 1:
It is 94 degrees outside and I am sweating profusely and overheating. This is the experience, an experience I am not satisfied with. Thus, I desire a new experience, namely one that brings about sensations of cooling off. I then fulfill this desire by finding a cool place to rest. Now, desire is born from the recognition that I am not satisfied with being in the heat, and craving is born through that desire being fulfilled, which in turn conditions the brain to desire a method of ensuring that there is always a cool place to rest when it is hot outside. Even if it is cool today, if I read in the newspaper that it will be hot tomorrow, I will plan today to be in a place where it is cool tomorrow.

Example 2:
I am broke and hungry. This is the experience, an experience I am not satisfied with. Thus, I desire a new experience, namely one that brings about sensations of being full and financially secure. I then fulfill this desire by doing some odd job for someone and getting paid money for my work, with which I go and purchase food with. Now, desire is born from the recognition that I am not satisfied with being hungry and broke, and craving is born through this desire being fulfilled, which in turn conditions the brain to desire a method of ensuring that I always have money for food, which means I get a job.

Many of you may say that what was just claimed is unavoidable, and rather necessary. I am not here to argue that, and in fact, I tend to agree. Desire and craving seem to be an unavoidable aspect of our life, yet they are linked together as one movement. One may now posit the question, “Who is the one living this life? Who is the 'I' that desires and craves?”, with the intention of reaching the unconditioned, where desire and craving are not applicable, but that is best left for another discussion.

The point of this exercise was to show, through logical deduction, that desire and suffering are inexplicably bound to one another; desire feeds suffering and suffering feeds desire. It was concluded that desire arises out of dissatisfaction, which is suffering, and leads to craving, which causes suffering. This could be stated in the reverse as well: suffering arises from craving, craving arises from desire, and desire arises from suffering. Either way, as we can see, it is a circle, one feeding into the other.

Hopefully we achieved some ground today with this exercise in logical deduction, and if not, that is okay too. Beware though, if you seek to challenge the premise of this exercise, and thus the exercise itself, be prepared to defend you premise with strong logical arguments, not merely emotional rants.

Peace.

I'm not sure if one can completely eliminate the desire or want for something... hence the continuation of life. Even those who desire to not desire anything.. are basically still desiring something.

So the real question is... the cost.

Is what you desire important enough to bear the consequences of pursuing it?

perhaps so, but even if not... are you just going to sit around with your thumb up you know where in the mean time? Will you fade into nothing? What will become of you?

I think our very being is driven by desire. In all my life and my experiences, I am always brought back to this point. Where will I go from here?

Where I desire.

I disagree as there are quite a few things that I desire to have, yet I am not suffering in any way from the lack of having such. If I desire something strongly enough, I work hard to acquire that which I desire, which in turn may lead to some sort of suffering, but again, not as you proclaim.

I believe buddah beat you to this assumption and I mean that in the most sincear way, because, honestly, Budda said it first

Originally posted by savageheart
I disagree as there are quite a few things that I desire to have, yet I am not suffering in any way from the lack of having such. If I desire something strongly enough, I work hard to acquire that which I desire, which in turn may lead to some sort of suffering, but again, not as you proclaim.

You work hard to acquire... some equate that to suffering. this is the reason I mention the cost of what is desired. are you willing to pay the price. Are you willing to work for what you desire.

I think those who say they desire nothing are kidding themselves.

To work for what you desire is paying your suffering ahead of time.

2 of the

The Four Noble Truths

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

Not so much desire, as it is needed.
It is attachment that causes suffering.

Originally posted by Jordan River
I believe buddah beat you to this assumption and I mean that in the most sincear way, because, honestly, Budda said it first

Well, yes.



What is the point?

Originally posted by rom12345
2 of the

The Four Noble Truths

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

Not so much desire, as it is needed.
It is attachment that causes suffering.

edit on 12-5-2012 by rom12345 because: (no reason given)

And if you read the second post, I explicitly stated, "desire leads to craving (attachment), in all circumstances". If you can piece together an argument against this, then please do so. Don't just say, "you're wrong!", otherwise the whole purpose of writing this out in a logically deductive manner is lost.

As a finish carpenter before Obama ruined everything, I was doing two houses a day. I could barely walk sometimes when I got home due to my knees and back hurting so bad as well as everything else. My body may have suffered, yet I felt a sense of accomplishment rather than actual suffering.

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy

Originally posted by Jordan River
I believe buddah beat you to this assumption and I mean that in the most sincear way, because, honestly, Budda said it first

Well, yes.



What is the point?

Give credit where it should be, i guess is what i am saying

NotAnAspie wrote:

I think our very being is driven by desire. In all my life and my experiences, I am always brought back to this point. Where will I go from here? Where I desire.

That's right.The journey of life is always from where you are towards where you desire. As the OP observes there is a kind of push/pull mechanism or locomotion effect which drives this progression. This is the wheel - a movement of repetition.

So there also exists a gap - the space or time between the present moment and the future point of realization (or frustration) of the desire.

Jordan River wrote:

I believe buddah beat you to this assumption and I mean that in the most sincear way, because, honestly, Budda said it first.

Concerning what Buddha is said to have realized and taught - Did he actually snuff out this energy called desire? Or did he snuff out the objects of desire. Desire, when it is enslaved by material objects and conditions naturally appears as being degraded.

I think it is a fine distinction to examine, because if desire is wrongly interpreted and condemned what is the outcome? Surely either desire(s) will become the subject of being repressed (in order to realize something 'higher' or more enduring, or the subject of indulgence. The gap that exists between desire and its object could be called 'time' in a personal psychological sense. When the average person thinks of time they don't recall Einstein's definition of it. It refers to the gap between their desire and the object towards which it is currently in movement towards. This is divided into units of measurement.

NotAnAspie wrote: I think our very being is driven by desire.

But what if our very being IS desire?

Do we even know what desire is? We call the gap between where we are and where we want to be 'desire' or we call it 'the movement of desire', but do we know desire before it has made its move?

Perhaps the gap that exists between being and the object of desire - a gap which is created out of a perceived sense of incompleteness, is the place to identify the source. Normally this space is not examined as it is considered a means to an end.

Two of Gautam Buddha's favorite meditation techniques were watching the breathing process in all circumstances and watching the walking process. Both of these activities possess the locomotion effect or push/pull movement where there is a centre-point of inactivity between the in/out or left/right movement - i.e. 'the gap.'

In support of this view, there are parables that tell stories such as the beggar who was in reality a king but had lost his memory and remained in a state of suffering, desiring the basics when in reality his home was a palace.