It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


Did the Protestants (try to) Kill Latin?

page: 2
<< 1   >>

log in


posted on May, 12 2012 @ 07:11 PM
It should be noted that both churches HAVE united again. There is a well paved road to unification already being enjoyed between both "sides" of the old empire.

The Coming Reunification of East and West
BY BRADFORD G. SCHLEIFERSeptember 10, 2004

"Recently, another attempt was made to establish common ground in what has been a rocky relationship between two churches with a checkered history. The current Pope of the Roman Catholic Church has made numerous attempts at reaching out to many religions. However, his strongest attempts have been to the Patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Pope John Paul II has even gone so far as to apologize for his church’s actions against those in the Eastern Orthodox faith—a move that would have been unthinkable two decades ago.

Over the last 15 years, meetings between these powerful religious leaders have become more frequent. Both offer a deep commitment to seeing their churches join under one banner and share their power to preach a common message."

Ecumenical Prospects

While Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are separate for the moment, what unites us is still far greater than what divides us, and there are abundant reasons for optimism regarding reconciliation in the future. Over the last several decades, there has been a marked lessening of tensions and overcoming of long-standing hostilities.

In 1965, Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I of Constantinople lifted mutual excommunications dating from the eleventh century, and in 1995, Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople concelebrated the Eucharist together. John Paul II, the first Slavic pope, has made the reconciliation of Eastern and Western Christendom a special theme of his pontificate, and he has released a large number of documents and addresses honoring the contributions of Eastern Christendom and seeking to promote unity between Catholics and Orthodox.

Catholic and Orthodox Unity: Close Enough to Imagine
Jan. 18, 2011
By Thomas Ryan

As we celebrate another Week of Prayer for Christianity, what is there to fuel our hope that this isn’t all just an exercise in futility? What’s to celebrate?

Signals are there that this movement called “ecumenical” does in fact move, that reflection as we go along on an increasing degree of “life together” is shaping our perception of the future in positive ways.

One noteworthy sign of this was the statement by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation last October.

For the past forty-five years they have been sifting through the pastoral and doctrinal issues that historically have prevented our churches from sharing a single life of faith, sacraments and witness before the world. But in this document, as indicated by its title, they are getting down to brass tacks: “Steps Towards A Reunited Church: A Sketch of an Orthodox-Catholic Vision for the Future.”

Their listing of what we share is substantive and long. In short: We believe our life as churches to be centered on the Divine Liturgy, the Word of God, and the sacraments from baptism to marriage.

Both churches recognize each other’s bishops as legitimately ordained into the apostolic succession. Both venerate Mary, the Mother of God, and a whole range of holy men and women from every age, many of them common to both our traditions. Both our churches cherish ancient practices that help the faithful grow in holiness, such as reverencing sacred images, fasting, the monastic life, and various forms of contemplative prayer.

All of which pushes the commission members to state:
It is urgent that Orthodox and Catholic Christians find an effective way to realize our common tradition of faith together, and to present the world with a unified testimony to the Lordship of Jesus. To be what we are called to be, we need each other…. To become what we are…we cannot stop short of re-establishing full Eucharistic communion among ourselves.

Latin will be the uniting element of a new church!
Ever wonder what Benedict is up to with his hardcore revival of the Latin mass and traditions?
He is setting the reunification of east and west. Orthodox-Catholic faith. The Latin mass is now a symbol of an emerging church. A re-transformation. Vatican2 was a damaging reform since it only served to water down the whole tradition. The original intent was a simple TRANSLATION into native tongues. instead the message was changed. The opportunity was bought and paid for and the "reformists" went mad with treason.

Orthodox and Catholic Bond Deepens: Will the Two Lungs of the Church Breathe Together Again?
By Deacon Keith Fournier
Catholic Online

ROME, Italy (Catholic Online) - First, I must lay all my cards on the table. I long for the full communion of the Orthodox and Catholic Church. I pray daily for the full communion of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. I do so because I believe it is the will of God that "All May be One" (John 17: 21).

I also believe that the healing of the division between the two churches would unleash a profound renewal of the entire Church at the dawn of what I believe is a new missionary age. I believe that the gifts found in the whole Church will enrich both East and West and assist us in the mission which we must face together in our One Lord.

edit on 12-5-2012 by BIHOTZ because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 12 2012 @ 07:38 PM
What if I were to tell you that Protestants and Catholics are planning this as well with the same language of urgency of the Eastern orthodox/ Latin reunification?

11 A Proposal For Reunification According To the Undivided Early Church’s Model of Catholic (Universal Christian) Communion among Many Orthodox Christian ‘Sister Churches’

A Proposal for the Reunification of Today’s Divided Christians According to the Model of the Undivided Early (Catholic) Church’s Catholic (Universal) Communion of Orthodox Christian Sister Churches, for the Great Benefit of Both Today’s Catholic and Non-Catholic Churches and Towards the Belief of the World Which Jesus’ Prayer Linked to Our Christian Unity

– so it must be possible to genuinely reform the Catholic Church according to the Undivided Early Catholic Church model for reformers and Catholics to once again belong to one Church.

The Church is the “profound mystery” of the Bride and Body of Jesus Christ Himself (see Ephesians 5:22-32). Jesus Christ the “Head” of the Body directs the Church His Body through His Holy Spirit who indwells individual Christians and who animates the Body of Christ the Church as a whole and guides its ordained leadership offices into “all the truth” (John 16:13) as Jesus promised His Apostles and their successors the ordained overseers (bishops or eparchs and patriarchs, including the chief overseer/bishop and patriarch, the pope).

The Non-Catholic Christian Churches which left the ancient Catholic Communion of Orthodox Christian Sister Churches collectively known as the Catholic Church in the Second Millennium can indeed be fundamentally orthodox and share in the above common saving Christian faith,

and can indeed be used of God as instruments of His salvation in the world, but only by being “Catholic at heart,” and acting as if the First Millennium Ecumenical and other major Councils of the Catholic Church, directed or ratified by Catholic popes, had genuine Holy Spirit-guaranteed authority to settle for all time the many disputes among early Christians over just which books should be in the New Testament and just how the Bible should be fundamentally interpreted. fication/

The protestants wouldn't be too hesitant to accept the chance of a unified one world religion.....Christian religion.

The opposition would be traditionalists but ultimately would be arguing against traditionalists that go farther back then their particular schisms. The argument is strong. Unification based on the celebration of each of the rites as valid "traditions". Catholics need Latin to retain their identity. Ultimately the one religion will have a hierarchal system of power where each "tradition" would have its particular leader. Pope, patriarch and Archbishop.

The future is going to require that Catholics preserve their traditions and language so as to commune with their sister traditions.

The reunited Catholic and Orthodox churches together, could literally change the face of Christianity overnight. Together they could prove to the world, that authentic Christianity overcomes all obstacles and barriers. Not even the bureaucratic institutions of a thousand years can stop true Christian charity from bringing together separated brethren. Literally overnight, the entire Protestant world would be left dumbfounded.

So far the closest thing Protestants have come to ecumenical charity has been the 'World Council of Churches' -- a liberal umbrella organization that has done little to nothing to end denominational boundaries within the Protestant world. In an instant, Evangelicals and Traditional Protestants would be faced with the reality that their denominational and organizational divisions cause scandal to the Body of Christ.

They would be forced to reckon with the fact that true Christian charity demands the overcoming of differences by the dispensing of pride, and the discovery of truth. A Catholic-Orthodox reunification would do nothing less than set the stage for Evangelicals and Protestants to begin their journey back toward Catholicism and Orthodoxy...

From the creation of the Church since the issue of the Edict of Milan in 313 AD/ CE and the Nicinian Creed in 380 there were two religious leaders the Pope who was sited in Roma and the Patriarch in Constantinople who still is the leader of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Filioque (Ecclesiastical Latin: [filiˈɔkwe]), Latin for "and (from) the Son", is a phrase found in the form of Nicene Creed in use in the Latin Church. It is not present in the Greek text of the Nicene Creed as originally formulated at the First Council of Constantinople, which says only that the Holy Spirit proceeds "from the Father":

edit on 12-5-2012 by BIHOTZ because: fix and more

posted on May, 12 2012 @ 07:52 PM
Lexicon Graece et Latine loquentium et quid opus Anglice significat.

Those who speak Greek and Latin both need no dictionary to know what English words mean.

posted on May, 12 2012 @ 08:37 PM
We know Benedict is a Huge fan of the Latin mass and the authenticity of the traditional time tested catholithism.
HIs name, chosen for what exactly? What meaning could his name have relevant to his mission?

Are Lutherans Next? Lutherans Seek Full Communion with Catholic Church
By Deacon Keith Fournier
Catholic Online (

CHESAPEAKE, VA (Catholic Online) - On Tuesday, Peter Kemmether, a married 62 year old father of four children was ordained to the Holy Priesthood by Bishop Gerhard Ludwig Müller. Fr. Peter was granted a dispensation from the canonical discipline of celibacy attached to priestly ordination.

He had been a Protestant Pastor who came into the full communion of the Catholic Church as the fruit of a sincere search for the fullness of the Christian faith. On June 6, 2010, I read a story in the Philadelphia Enquirer entitled "The Priest and his Mrs." concerning now Fr. Philip Johnson, a Lutheran Pastor for 19 years, who followed a similar path. He was ordained for the Diocese of Camden with the same exception, under the sponsorship and invitation of Bishop Joseph Galante.

Catholics are becoming aware of the former Anglican and Episcopal ministers who have followed the same journey home. Fewer Catholics are aware of the marvelous welcome the Church has extended to many more through the historic apostolic constitution approved by Pope Benedict XI.

To be Catholic is to enter into the prayer of Jesus for the Unity of His Church. In Pope Benedict XVI's first Papal message he signaled his commitment to this unity: "Nourished and sustained by the Eucharist, Catholics cannot but feel encouraged to strive for the full unity for which Christ expressed so ardent a hope in the Upper Room. The Successor of Peter knows that he must make himself especially responsible for his Divine Master's supreme aspiration.

Indeed, he is entrusted with the task of strengthening his brethren (cf. Lk 22: 32). With full awareness, therefore, at the beginning of his ministry in the Church of Rome which Peter bathed in his blood, Peter's current Successor takes on as his primary task the duty to work tirelessly to rebuild the full and visible unity of all Christ's followers. This is his ambition, his impelling duty."

He has placed the commitment to the full communion of the Church at the forefront of his Papacy. This is evident in his love, respect and repeated overtures toward our Orthodox brethren, whom we recognize as a Church and whose priesthood and Sacraments we also recognize.

However, this love is also evident in his outreach to the separated Christians of the Reformation communities of the West. On the 4th anniversary of the death of his predecessor, John Paul II, Pope Benedict reminded us of John Paul's passionate commitment to the full communion of the Church. That teaching is summarized in the Encyclical Letter "May they be One" (Ut Unum Sint)

A look at the new changes in the Roman Missal and what they mean for Catholics.

The Roman Missal: Embracing the New Translation
By: Rev. Richard Hilgartner

Each issue carries an imprimatur from the Archdiocese of Cincinnati. Reprinting prohibited Soon we will be noticing some changes at Mass. In late 2011, at the beginning of Advent, newly translated prayers will be used at liturgy in the dioceses of the United States (and throughout the English-speaking world). In this Update we’ll take a look at the reasons behind those changes. They offer us a chance to understand more deeply the liturgy itself.

The Roman Missal, source of the prayers, is now in its third edition. It is marked by a shift from the style of language of its predecessors. The first and second editions of the Roman Missal in English (formerly called the Sacramentary), officially introduced in 1974 and 1985, respectively, were marked by a style of English that was immediately accessible and easy to understand. The prayers themselves, though, were not always accurate translations of the original Latin texts.

edit on 12-5-2012 by BIHOTZ because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-5-2012 by BIHOTZ because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 12 2012 @ 08:46 PM
so the schisms, how are they going to be addressed? How will the unification take place and resolve issues like the divinity of Mary for one amongst others

• The original Hebrew Old Testament includes 39 books. But in approximately 200 BC, when Hebrew scholars translated the bible into Greek, the texts expanded to include 46 books. Hellenistic Jews used this translation, called the Septuagint, as did many early Christians.
In approximately 382 AD, the ascetic St. Jerome decided to translate the original Hebrew bible into Latin. During this process, St. Jerome became convinced that the Septuagint included inauthentic books. Another ascetic and one of the period's most prolific scholars, St. Augustine, began writing to Jerome and defending the holiness of the Greek translation. The two saints never reached an agreement and neither did their successors.
Catholic Bible

• Catholics have continued to embrace the Greek translation as their official bible. The Catholic bible has 46 Old Testament books. This includes seven books that did not appear in the original Hebrew: Tobit, Judith, First and Second Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) and Baruch. In the Catholic Bible, the books of Esther and Daniel also have extra passages. The Catholics refer to these additions as "deuterocanonical," which means of the second canon.

Benedict will return the church to a FIRST canon model and then along with all others "traditions", proceed to introduce a new holy bible.

Protestant Bible
• When Martin Luther broke with the Catholic Church in the 16th century, he embraced St. Jerome's argument and returned to the original Hebrew. His Protestant contemporaries, most notably John Calvin, did likewise. The Protestants acknowledge 39 Old Testament books and refer to the extra seven Catholic books as "Apocrypha," which means hidden. While some Protestant bibles do include the Apocrypha, they treat the additional texts as an unequal addendum to the God-inspired texts. The Protestant New Testament, like the Catholic version, contains 27 books and has caused few disagreements.

I believe Benedict wants to find a common ground founded in the original model of the first church. The one church of Christ. I don't know how they will pull it off since this issue involves two major schisms in the church. I am confident that unification themes will become a new reformist language.

edit on 12-5-2012 by BIHOTZ because: fix

posted on May, 12 2012 @ 08:55 PM
Here is a little insight into benedicts goals. He wants nothing less than a reunification of the Christian churches. He is a proponent of "time honored traditions". The model already exists. The community of letters from which we take directly as our holy scripture.
How would a Lutheran/catholic/ orthodox super church govern itself? More importantly, overcome its history?

It uses a model that represents the greatest unification for the message of Christ taking a back seat to Christ's message.

I don't know. I like the tradition it is. Maybe I just like constancy. I could embrace this unified church. I already argue for a mechanical Hebrew translation anyways. I can tolorate traditional Greek.

However, this love is also evident in his outreach to the separated Christians of the Reformation communities of the West. On the 4th anniversary of the death of his predecessor, John Paul II, Pope Benedict reminded us of John Paul's passionate commitment to the full communion of the Church. That teaching is summarized in the Encyclical Letter "May they be One" (Ut Unum Sint)

Ioannes Paulus PP. II
Ut unum sint
On commitment to Ecumenism

1. Ut unum sint! The call for Christian unity made by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council with such impassioned commitment is finding an ever greater echo in the hearts of believers, especially as the Year 2000 approaches, a year which Christians will celebrate as a sacred Jubilee, the commemoration of the Incarnation of the Son of God, who became man in order to save humanity.

The courageous witness of so many martyrs of our century, including members of Churches and Ecclesial Communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church, gives new vigour to the Council's call and reminds us of our duty to listen to and put into practice its exhortation.

These brothers and sisters of ours, united in the selfless offering of their lives for the Kingdom of God, are the most powerful proof that every factor of division can be transcended and overcome in the total gift of self for the sake of the Gospel.

Christ calls all his disciples to unity. My earnest desire is to renew this call today, to propose it once more with determination, repeating what I said at the Roman Colosseum on Good Friday 1994, at the end of the meditation on the Via Crucis prepared by my Venerable Brother Bartholomew, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.

There I stated that believers in Christ, united in following in the footsteps of the martyrs, cannot remain divided. If they wish truly and effectively to oppose the world's tendency to reduce to powerlessness the Mystery of Redemption, they must profess together the same truth about the Cross.1 The Cross! An anti-Christian outlook seeks to minimize the Cross, to empty it of its meaning, and to deny that in it man has the source of his new life. It claims that the Cross is unable to provide either vision or hope. Man, it says, is nothing but an earthly being, who must live as if God did not exist.

2. No one is unaware of the challenge which all this poses to believers. They cannot fail to meet this challenge. Indeed, how could they refuse to do everything possible, with God's help, to break down the walls of division and distrust, to overcome obstacles and prejudices which thwart the proclamation of the Gospel of salvation in the Cross of Jesus, the one Redeemer of man, of every individual?

I thank the Lord that he has led us to make progress along the path of unity and communion between Christians, a path difficult but so full of joy. Interconfessional dialogues at the theological level have produced positive and tangible results: this encourages us to move forward.

Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse.

Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today.

All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.

3. At the Second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church committed herself irrevocably to following the path of the ecumenical venture, thus heeding the Spirit of the Lord, who teaches people to interpret carefully the "signs of the times" . The experiences of these years have made the Church even more profoundly aware of her identity and her mission in history.

The Catholic Church acknowledges and confesses the weaknesses of her members, conscious that their sins are so many betrayals of and obstacles to the accomplishment of the Saviour's plan. Because she feels herself constantly called to be renewed in the spirit of the Gospel, she does not cease to do penance. At the same time, she acknowledges and exalts still more the power of the Lord, who fills her with the gift of holiness, leads her forward, and conforms her to his Passion and Resurrection.

edit on 12-5-2012 by BIHOTZ because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 12 2012 @ 09:26 PM
Finally I just want to include this one more excerpt form the Benedicts "Ut unum sint" Benedict basically admits to the Catholic´s errors in translation and subsequent schism. His reform uses Latin as a tool of unification for Catholics to a new One faith based on the original church. The other "traditions" will do similar work until a common new "good book" can be written. This new book will be based on a mechanical translation from the ORIGINAL Hebrew/Aramaic.

25. It is not just the Pope who has become a pilgrim. In recent years, many distinguished leaders of other Churches and Ecclesial Communities have visited me in Rome, and I have been able to join them in prayer, both in public and in private. I have already mentioned the visit of the Ecumenical Patriarch Dimitrios I.

I would now like to recall the prayer meeting, also held in Saint Peter's Basilica, at which I joined the Lutheran Archbishops, the Primates of Sweden and Finland, for the celebration of Vespers on the occasion of the Sixth Centenary of the Canonization of Saint Birgitta (5 October 1991). This is just one example, because awareness of the duty to pray for unity has become an integral part of the Church's life.

There is no important or significant event which does not benefit from Christians coming together and praying. It is impossible for me to give a complete list of such meetings, even though each one deserves to be mentioned. Truly the Lord has taken us by the hand and is guiding us. These exchanges and these prayers have already written pages and pages of our "Book of unity", a "Book" which we must constantly return to and re-read so as to draw from it new inspiration and hope.

I cant help but notice a patern of a one everything........

The whole thing reads like a straight forward mission statement. You can pretty much count on the old rivalries to end rather abruptly. When that will happen, I don't know? How long does it take to make a whole new bible? Everyone who belongs to Christian faiths should be aware of what it is ALL transforming into.
edit on 12-5-2012 by BIHOTZ because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 12 2012 @ 10:12 PM
Well i am no expert but from where i see it Latin may not be in "common" use in its original form
but it is far from dead as has been stated by others it is very much in use by the holy see
and it is used in science (along with Greek) for identifying every thing from molecules to stars

i guess its "common" use started to fade soon after the fall of the Roman empire but its influence
was so great that a lot of individual words and phrases have morphed and evolved and are a part
of most of the languages that root from Europe such as English, French, German, Spanish and others
so in effect if you live in Western Europe, Britain or an awful lot of America north and south
you ARE speaking an evolved form of latin.

All language evolves over time words fall from use others are invented or borrowed from
others think as a an English speaking citizen of the united states for example
you are not speaking "true" english you speak an evolved version based on MY British english
while we understand each other well enough some of your words now have a different
meaning to mine like chip what I call a chip is what you call a french fry.
See modern english here traces its roots all over there are bits of Latin, Breton, Gallic,Danish and others
So there is NO true English language it adapts over time and so do most if not all others.

So latin has not died it just grew up in to what we speak today so esse superbus vestrum radices

posted on May, 13 2012 @ 08:41 AM
I studied Latin in high school,and now I study law so it was pretty much useful for me.My favorite homework assignment was translating Latin.

posted on May, 13 2012 @ 04:03 PM
if you google the orange order you will see a lot of latin in the art work of the banners of the order that are used in the parades in july/agust and at easter , if you also google some of the protestant organisations wall murals you will also see latin , in a nut shell no ..the orange order was started by a mason and also shares a lot of the masonic simbals but thats where the connection ends
"Quis separabit" the motto of the Ulster Defence Association, a proscribed loyalist paramilitary group in Northern Ireland The source is the Vulgate translation of Romans, 8:35: "Quis nos separabit a caritate Christi...", translated as "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?".
very masonic looking orange order painting i thought i would throw in just to give the conspiracy theorists something to do

posted on May, 13 2012 @ 04:19 PM
I am from Northern Ireland and a Protestant, I went to a "state" school which would be seen as the Protestant schooling route (95% of the pupils would have been Protestant)

We learnt Latin

So no

posted on May, 14 2012 @ 03:46 AM

Originally posted by blueorder
I am from Northern Ireland and a Protestant, I went to a "state" school which would be seen as the Protestant schooling route (95% of the pupils would have been Protestant)

We learnt Latin

So no

HA, case closed.

top topics

<< 1   >>

log in