Who killed the prophet Muhammad? A 1400 year old murder mystery.

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger
sunnis follow his uncle abu beckr

that is why for a time, Boris Beck(e)r was worshipped in parts of the middle east

Originally posted by beezzer
Off the cuff here, but in his later revelations, he was asking more for peace than anything else.

Wasn't it one of his followers?

And isn't this the point of division between shia and sunni branches?

Actually it has been shown that as he gained more power in the region he became more warlike and belligerent. His peace-loving days were early on as the prophet of Allah. It was in his later years (627 C.E., just five years before his death) that he ordered the beheading of 600 Quaryza Jews (men and young boys).

He was a target of opportunity.

/TOA

about 30 yrs ago, i remember reading a novel that explained how the prophet mohammed met his demise. in the book shike (there was shike I and shike II). the author described a scenario in history in which the mongel horde invaded and conquered parts of the eastern empire. the prophet was put into a rolled up carpet and trampled.
yes, shike I and shike II were works of historical fiction about feudal japan and the chinese and mongol invasions. however, considering that history is constantly being re-written, what we understand as world history today was not what the prevailing books of the past described it.

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger
sunnis follow his uncle abu beckr

that is why for a time, Boris Beck(e)r was worshipped in parts of the middle east

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger

Originally posted by The Old American

Actually it has been shown that as he gained more power in the region he became more warlike and belligerent. His peace-loving days were early on as the prophet of Allah. It was in his later years (627 C.E., just five years before his death) that he ordered the beheading of 600 Quaryza Jews (men and young boys).

He was a target of opportunity.

Certainly there were many people Muhammad enslaved who would have been happy to have killed him.

Interestingly, the incident relating to the beheading of 600 Quaryza Jews and the enslaving of their women and children you mention is briefly mentioned in the Koran.

33:26 And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.

33:27 And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things.

Koran

A much more comprehensive explanation of the beheading of the 600 Jews by Muhammad and his enslaving of their women and children is by Ibn Ishaq.

Ibn Ishaq was a devout Muslim historian and was the author of the first biography about Muhammad - Sirat Rasul Allah - "Life of God's Messenger" in 768 AD.

"The apostle of Allah imprisoned the Qurayza in Medina while trenches were dug in the market-place. Then he sent for the men and had their heads struck off so that they fell in the trenches. They were brought out in groups, and among them was Kab, the chief of the tribe. In number, they amounted to six or seven hundred, although some state it to have been eight or nine hundred. All were executed. One man turned to his people and said, 'It matters not! By God's will, the children of Israel were destined for this massacre!’ Then he seated himself and his head was struck off...

...Now the apostle distributed the property of the Banu Qurayza, as well as their women and children, to the Muslims, reserving one-fifth for himself. Every horseman received three shares, one for himself and two for his steed, and every foot soldier one share. There were thirty-six horses present on the day of the Qurayza. The apostle dispatched an emissary to Najd with the prisoners, to barter them as slaves in exchange for horses and camels. The apostle of Allah selected one of the Jewish women, Rayhana, for himself, and she remained with him as his slave until she died. He had suggested marriage to her, that she should wear the veil (to separate her from all other persons, as his wives did), but she replied, 'Rather allow me to remain thy slave; it will be more easy for me, and for thee.'"

Life of God's Messenger

Whether the women and children Muhammad enslaved were in a position to poison Muhammad is an interesting question. Certainly the Jewish women, Rayhana, who had watched Muhammad behead her husband certainly had a motive. The fact that she appeared to have shared Muhammad's bed until his death would also suggest that she also had the opportunity.

We have no evidence however that any of Muhammad's slaves poisoned him.

reply to post by HomerinNC

Originally posted by HomerinNC
I thought he ascended to heaven; didnt know he was killed, isnt that why the Muslims revere the Dome of the Rock, where he ascended?

in Islam it's known as the "Night Journey"
a euphemism for what was actually an astral projection/ascent of the planes

there are similar cases in the bible

adding to the jameela and others back and forth:
i'm with jameela that this thread is [already on p2] beginning to become
yet another muslim bash with the additional tired old slander about jews being poisoners

that said to claim Mohammed was perfect and unerring is no different from the popes similar claims

i thought your faith was stronger than as to require such a crutch jameela?

that said

all religions are corruptions of Shamanism
the original schism was into Tantra [no celibacy required]
and Sorcery [celibacy required]

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Originally posted by skOrpiOn
If Jesus was indeed singing psalms 22.....then does it mean....

a) God answered Jesus' prayer to be saved (v21) ....as it says in Psalm 22.
b) God hid His face from the afflicted one (v24) ....as it says in Psalm 22.
c) Did the speaker of Psalms 22 also happen to be the "seed" that "shall serve him". (v30), is he the same as the one who spoke in verse 1???

(A) I think it’s more a case of Jesus singing his victory song,…because he already knows that God will save him, as prophesied in Psalm 22.


(B) And verse 24 says, “he has not hidden his face from him, but has listened to his cry for help” So it’s a prophetic description, possibly of a vision, of how the Messiah will be scorned, pierced and afflicted, by the people, and yet saved by God.


(C) If by “seed” you meant God, then yes, he is the one who served him. But remember that the prophet writing that verse, is possibly trying to depict a vision, and is doing so from his own perspective; so IMO he (the prophet) is describing both Jesus the Messiah, and how God will not forsake him.


- JC

This..

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Originally posted by skOrpiOn
And are they also willing to consider Jesus words as he was dying on the cross.... "Why have you forsaken me?" to conclude that Jesus was a false prophet and not divine?

I mean, if it was indeed Jesus on the cross....and if Jesus was indeed divine as Christians believe...
how could he not know why he was forsaken? Why did he even think he was being forsaken in the first place, if he knew his role was to die for mankinds sins?

Psalm 22: 1-2

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.

I’m not sure how much I buy into this, but there is a theory, that Jesus was singing Psalm 22, on the Cross; which although sounds very negative, is actually all about keeping faith in God, through trying times.


- JC

edit on 13-5-2012 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)

Erich From wrote extensively about that and agrees with you as do i

reply to post by Jameela


sigh
like the talmud [babylonic]
aren't these hadiths

interpretations

and as such degenerations of the original revelations?

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger

i thought your faith was stronger than as to require such a crutch jameela?

I do not see how believing that the Prophets (saw) of God do not sin or make mistakes (otherwise they would be delivering and showing to the people an imperfect message) is a crutch...rather It is a belief

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger

reply to post by Jameela

 

sigh

like the talmud [babylonic]
aren't these hadiths

interpretations

and as such degenerations of the original revelations?

Ahadith are stories from people about something they heard or saw that get told to another person and so forth.

Say you and I are in a room together and you say the sky is brown today, I go home and tell my brother, he in turn goes to work and tells his friend, his friend goes and tells his mother, the mother tells her friend...(maybe now it gets written down)

this is exactly what ahadith are.... narrations of something heard or seen, that was passed on to others... the people that get told the story are called the chain of narrators (isnad).... it is why chain is important, if you have known liars or forgers in the chain then it corrupts the chain.

the matn or the content of what was told is even by the best of people subject to possible distortion because you may not remember exactly or unintentionally misinterpret what was said or seen.

That is what a hadith is, except with the ones in our religious books of ahadith are what people saw or heard the Prophet (saw) or the Ahl al Bayt (as) say or do....

In my mind the talmud is slightly more like tafasir, or exegesis, we have this for the holy Quran, exegesis of the Holy Quran written by scholars to help explain the meanings, and they use their knowledge of history and ahadith and preceding scholars opinions in order to explain on the meaning of the Quran.
www.shiasource.com... that link is to a tafsir written by a scholar, (the translation has yet to be completed, so what is on the site is only partial but it helps you to see the difference between a tafsir and hadith)

It was the C.I.A

No idea, just a shame it didn't happen earlier in his life............

I don't know if this has already been posted?

I thought it was the Butler, in the Library, with The Candelstick.

Jack the ripper killed Muhammad!

Second.

reply to post by Jameela


i see,
so they are more like legends

so it would be tafasir then

but again if you posit that Mohammed was infallible
what are fallible men doing "interpreting" it with what would be an imperfect understanding

my point is that religions degenerate and become corrupted due to all this "interpreting"

the talmud is so against moses and the prophets true message and so for the priests and monarchists
that it's being a corruption/distortion/subversion of judaisms original [and monolatric form] is obvious to those who know.

my point is that priesthoods and other authorities are obstacles to knowing god

i highly recommend reading Frank Herbert's Magnum Opus The Dune Chronicles [it's an octology]
from the appendix of Dune [book 1 of 8] by Frank Herbert

"Men, finding no answers to the sunnan [the ten thousand religious questions
from the Shari-ah] now apply their own reasoning. All men seek to be
enlightened. Religion is but the most ancient and honorable way in which men
have striven to make sense out of God's universe. Scientists seek the lawfulness
of events. It is the task of Religion to fit man into this lawfulness."

In their conclusion, though, the Commentaries set a harsh tone that very
likely foretold their fate.

"Much that was called religion has carried an unconscious attitude of
hostility toward life. True religion must teach that life is filled with joys
pleasing to the eye of God, that knowledge without action is empty. All men must
see that the teaching of religion by rules and rote is largely a hoax. The
proper teaching is recognized with ease. You can know it without fail because it
awakens within you that sensation which tells you this is something you've
always known."

There was an odd sense of calm as the presses and shigawire imprinters
rolled and the O.C. Bible spread out through the worlds. Some interpreted this
as a sign from God, an omen of unity.
But even the C.E.T. delegates betrayed the fiction of that calm as they
returned to their respective congregations. Eighteen of them were lynched within
two months. Fifty-three recanted within the year.
The O.C. Bible was denounced as a work produced by "the hubris of reason."
It was said that its pages were filled with a seductive interest in logic.
Revisions that catered to popular bigotry began appearing. These revisions
leaned on accepted symbolisms (Cross, Crescent, Feather Rattle, the Twelve
Saints, the thin Buddha, and the like) and it soon became apparent that the
ancient superstitions and beliefs had not been absorbed by the new ecumenism.
Halloway's label for C.E.T.'s seven-year effort -- "Galactophasic
Determinism" -- was snapped up by eager billions who interpreted the initials
G.D. as "God-Damned."
C.E.T. Chairman Toure Bomoko, an Ulema of the Zensunnis and one of the
fourteen delegates who never recanted ("The Fourteen Sages" of popular history),
appeared to admit finally the C.E.T. had erred.

"We shouldn't have tried to create new symbols," he said. "We should've
realized we weren't supposed to introduce uncertainties into accepted belief,
that we weren't supposed to stir up curiosity about God. We are daily confronted
by the terrifying instability of all things human, yet we permit our religions
to grow more rigid and controlled, more conforming and oppressive. What is this
shadow across the highway of Divine Command? It is a warning that institutions
endure, that symbols endure when their meaning is lost, that there is no summa
of all attainable knowledge."

The bitter double edge in this "admission" did not escape Bomoko's critics
and he was forced soon afterward to flee into exile, his life dependent upon the
Guild's pledge of secrecy. He reportedly died on Tupile, honored and beloved,

his last words: "Religion must remain an outlet for people who say to
themselves, 'I am not the kind of person I want to be.' It must never sink into
an assemblage of the self-satisfied."

It is pleasant to think that Bomoko understood the prophecy in his words:
"Institutions endure." Ninety generations later, the O.C. Bible and the
Commentaries permeated the religious universe.
When Paul-Muad'Dib stood with his right hand on the rock shrine enclosing
his father's skull (the right hand of the blessed, not the left hand of the
damned) he quoted word for word from "Bomoko's Legacy" --

"You who have defeated us say to yourselves that Babylon is fallen and its
works have been overturned. I say to you still that man remains on trial, each
man in his own dock. Each man is a little war."

reply to post by lonewolf19792000
Thank you soooooo much for this ...my heart is joyed as I can now pass this onto my 2 sons who have been sucked into this cult called islam ...S&F epic .....peace

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger


In some ways I do agree with you, in other ways I do not. Allow me to explain why, and my personal veiws on this topic.

An admonition in the Holy Quran to the Muslim was concerning what the Jews and Christians did with their Rabbi's and Monks. We are told that the Jews and Christians took their Rabbi's and Monks as Gods besides Allah through blind following of their teachings, and we are told under no uncertain terms not to do this thing, or we will corrupt the religion of God.

So, we cannot look to a scholar, him being fallible, as a know all end all in our faith. But we do need them sometimes, we need to learn from many different people who are more knowledgeable than ourselves, ones who have differing opinions, to go forward in our own quest for knowledge. Our life from cradle to grave should be spent in the seeking of knowledge, also it should be spent in meditation and reflection upon the words of Allah.

We need the guidance of the Imams from the Ahl al Bayt (as) to better understand things that are not in the Quran, to use a base example, how to pray, the Quran tells us to pray, but does not expound on the matter. The Imams of the Ahl al Bayt (as) are our guides to matters such as this, and they also (all 12) are infallible... we have the Prophet (saw) who was sent for the revelation, and the Imams (as) who were sent for the interpretation of that revelation. So, while Allah told us through the Prophet (saw) to pray, it is the 12 infallible Imams who are the guardians of the sunnah of the Prophet (saw) and who explain to us the how, since we were not there at the time of the Prophet (saw) In this time (ghayba of the Imam (atf) ) we must look to the writings of the Imams (as) and their followers for this how....(through the ahadith)

But our beliefs must not be dictated by men, what we do is learn from the men, and formulate our own beliefs based on what knowledge we have. If I want to know about the sciences of hadith, then I go to several of the scholars practiced at such sciences who will teach me their opinions concerning these sciences, then I in turn
take what they have taught me, meditate and pray upon what the Holy Quran says concerning such things, and decide how I feel is best to go about deducing which hadith I can accept, and which I do not feel I can accept... at this point, I have learned from a scholar a thing, but have taken my relationship with Allah, and my personal reflections upon the words of the Quran and made that the most important part of my understanding and my future actions.

Jews made the religion all about laws, Christians took the same religion and made it all about spirituality... Islam seeks the balance between the two. There must be laws, but at the same time these laws are not the end of of the religion, without spirituality following the laws becomes worthless.

Yes, there are men who seek only to destroy us through the very religion we follow, this is why being knowledgeable is very important within our own right, rather than just taking what others say as any kind of truth without indepth examination thereof... And the words of Allah teach us these things, and how best to cope with them. But without learning from others, there are many things we would not know... without learning from others we would not know detailed history of revelation which helps us to understand best those words.

the point is to make sure the things we are accepting as the most plausible truth is not itself a lie, this means examining everything from many different views and angles. And this search is a very personal one, but one that can be helped greatly by learning from others also.

We are warned that by the time of the Return very very few would be following the religion in truth, and warned also that when the Mahdi (atf) returns to lead the Ummah it will seem to us as a different religion so far will we be removed from the original intent. This is why making it a personal journey is of the utmost importance, while at the same time using, the necessity of the knowledge of those more knowledgeable than we, to our advantage and not our downfall.