Nosy exam question asks 3rd graders to reveal a "secret". Parents outraged.

Originally posted by newcovenant

Originally posted by rival

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by FortAnthem

 

What do these parents have to hide and why make a young child responsible for the information if they do? Either your child can keep a secret or they can't. Many popular children's stories and poems revolve around secrets. I think the parents are afraid the kid is going to spill stuff like my parents are running a meth lab, hoarding guns, making me have sex with strangers - you know that sort of stuff.

It is a ridiculous argument that ONLY criminals covet their privacy. We all covet our privacy,
otherwise the there would be no sound business in window curtain sales.

This argument is nothing but the self-righteous, egotistical assertion of someone who
believes they are squeaky clean and that all others should be as well....and it misses
the point.

Privacy goes WAY BEYOND the hiding of criminal activity. What if the child's secret were
that he was born a boy, but for medical reasons, he was changed at birth to a girl? (I have
niece starting school in this predicament, FYI).

Or that daddy and mommy have an open relationship and that mommy is dating the
principal and daddy is dating the principal's ex-wife.

Arghhh, the idea that criminals are the only ones who require privacy is a RIDICULOUS
ego-driven self-serving fallacy. And it is people who think like this who wake up and find
ALL of their freedom GONE...and sometimes their very lives at stake

Yeah I guess it would be a ridiculous argument if that was what I was saying but I wasn't.

How do you protect children from parents who are abusive if you do not even have the right to ask them to tell you the truth? Before you blame me for an irrational argument why don't you stop and take the time to think of answers that will solve the dilemma of protecting children while maintaining individual liberty and privacy.

Now all of a sudden everyone is a liberal.

Sheesh.

Two timing back stabbers these weekend liberals.

Sorry for the vitriol, it WAS misguided. My post was directed to an esoteric group in here whose stance
was to attack the parents as potential criminals for wanting to keep their children's secrets private.
It was this sentence that lumped your reply into that group, and I knee-jerked.

I think the parents are afraid the kid is going to spill stuff like my parents are running a meth lab, hoarding guns, making me have sex with strangers - you know that sort of stuff.

I still feel quite passionately about the subject of privacy because we have lost that particular freedom
in the last ten years.

It is no longer a conspiracy theory that every word I type while connected to the internet or
every word I speak into a phone is *monitored*. It is, in fact, an accepted protocol in this new age
of suspected terrorism...and it goes against EVERY principle this country was founded on and
flies in the face of the fourth amendment.

The reason for my passion is the emerging paradigm that ALL persons are *guilty until
proven innocent.* WE MUST STOP THIS IDEA FROM TAKING HOLD or the future of the
children that we are seeking to protect...will be lost.

I can offer no solutions to the problem of children's abuse. It is a problem that the human species
has been dealing with forever. And it will continue, because sexual deviants and sadists are born
into existence every day. Maybe just look for the signs of abuse and ask questions when you have some
shred of evidence that a child is being harmed. Remain vigilant and aware, as is REQUIRED
by the tenets of a free society...once again freedom REQUIRES work. It certainly is NOT free.

I can relate one tale where this system worked.

I was a precocious kid, and in grade school loved magic and other things of that ilk. One day I decided
to make-up my face. I was, and still am, pretty good at taking a pencil, a blue pen, a red pen, and
creating realistic bruises and blood welts on my face. After doing this (for fun) before school,
I attended class and was immediately queried and shuffled off to the principal's office when I didn't
produce the truth of the matter. Unbeknownst to me, the administrators thought I was covering up
a case of abuse.

Anyway, next thing I know my dad shows up, in uniform (he was a police officer) HIGHLY UPSET,
and I realize my error a tad too late--as my joke has been too effective. So I remove the make-up and
and everyone is relieved, and my dad takes me home and I get a lecture about a boy who cried
wolf, (although at the time I was innocent of child abuse and didn't quite understand how serious
my joke had been.)

But that is the type of system I want to return to once again. It's not perfect....

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Okay you must've missed where I wrote that in the first sentence of my response, that this is illegal but in my eyes not a bad idea. So next time why not read the full post before you jump ship into the sea of over pretentious bull#.

You know what would suck?

If a kid answered this question with something like..

"I am touched every night by _______."

Because.. MAN.. could you just imagine the invasion of privacy that _______ just had when that kid unwittingly outed said person as a sexual predator?

I am outraged by the possibility that this question could help children that are being abused by the people they are supposed to trust the most.

The stupidity of these arguments is mind-boggling. If a child isn't subjected to their parents' secrets, a child with never be in a position to have to keep their parents' secrets. This is not the "If you don't do anything, you shouldn't be worried" argument. This is the "Don't involve your children in YOUR stupidity" argument.

If you want to do drugs, don't do them in front of your kids.
If you want to have crazy rough violent sex, don't do it in front of your kids.
If you want to cheat on your taxes, steal cable, or break some other law..

..DON'T INVOLVE YOUR KIDS.

The moment you make your kids lie for you, is the moment you teach your child that lying is an acceptable way to behave. They will lie to you, each other, and everyone else. Now, if you want to raise dishonest people, that's your prerogative, but understand that a dishonest child is going to cause MUCH more problems than a kid that understands the value of being able to keep a secret.

reply to post by Furbs


You know what would really suck? If we actually lived in your pretend society where it takes a calculated "logic" question to find out if a ___________ is molesting that child. In that society, that you describe, obviously children have no other recourse than to answer a question only given to 4000 children. In your world the rest of the molested children will just have to keep suffering, with no other recourse, no person in the world available to them, no possible way outside of this test question, for these children to tell someone they are being molested.

Let's pretend that the world is filled with uncaring heartless people who have convinced the nations children that they cannot trust them to simply tell of crimes being committed, but instead they must be tricked into telling these cold heartless people. Let's pretend children would never dare cry for help long before they're asked on a test to tell a secret. Let's pretend that the world is this two dimensional place where only insidious government run social engineering can flesh out and grant us a three dimensional world.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


You seem to be under the erroneous impression that I believe that a single question is the only way something like abuse could be deduced. Nothing in my post paints such a black and white picture, so the projection of concept is yours, as I do not agree with the ideas you are ascribing to me.

Or perhaps it's a way to see if the children are being taught to think critically and to know when it's appropriate to keep a secret and when it isn't. What kind of things should be told and which secrets should be kept. Maybe it's a way to see if they are sociologically prepared for today's world where some things are considered personal privacy and other things are very dangerous and should be reported. Perhaps it's a way to see if the children have been taught the critical thinking skills they need to develop in order to function in society. Maybe, just maybe, part of that curriculum was to teach the students when to keep "secrets" and when to not keep them such as times of molestation, drugs, things that were harmful to their wellbeing and other things such as "how much money daddy makes" or "mommy drinks wine" are things that don't have to be shared.
There is an old quote about having two sides to any story and a less old quote about being his side, her side and the truth, we're developing into a much more complex model. There are countless sides out there to any situation and our children are going to have to be able to process that and understand what is harmful and what isn't, what should be told and what shouldn't.
Not everything, every single action or happening, in the world is a conspiracy theory.

From the discussion here, it's pretty clear that if this was the aim of the testing company, they need to learn the concept themselves before they're going to be able to accurately test it with students.

reply to post by Furbs


Moving the argument from "If you don't do anything, you shouldn't be worried" to "Don't involve your children in YOUR stupidity" argument is not some refutation of the former, it is a bizarre alliance with that crowd, , and you certainly began this post by making the exact same argument that the "if you don't do anything, you shouldn't be worried" crowd is making. The rest of your post is you scolding parents insisting that if they do things they want kept secret they shouldn't do it around their kids, as if this were the only reason parents would be alarmed that such a question would be asked on a test, because they're acting criminally or unethically, or immorally.

Perhaps you could clarify precisely what you meant by that post.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Furbs

 

Moving the argument from "If you don't do anything, you shouldn't be worried" to "Don't involve your children in YOUR stupidity" argument is not some refutation of the former, it is a bizarre alliance with that crowd, , and you certainly began this post by making the exact same argument that the "if you don't do anything, you shouldn't be worried" crowd is making. The rest of your post is you scolding parents insisting that if they do things they want kept secret they shouldn't do it around their kids, as if this were the only reason parents would be alarmed that such a question would be asked on a test, because they're acting criminally or unethically, or immorally.

Perhaps you could clarify precisely what you meant by that post.

I am not about to dumb down my post to make it more palatable for your seemingly binary view of the world. If you are unable to understand why "If you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" and "If you are doing something wrong, don't involve your children" are fundamentally different, I do not believe you will find any help in my post. It is probably best for you to find someone more willing to converse with you on the binary level you seem to be viewing the world through.

reply to post by Furbs


I am not at all convinced you could dumb down your post. That would require a level that post doesn't seem to be at. The "fundamental difference" between your argument and the other argument both operate on an assumption that the only reason parents would be concerned about this test question is because they are doing something illicit that their children know of and have forced their children into an oath of secrecy. Neither argument acknowledges that a concerned parent might have their concerns rooted in the fact that if that child is aware of private matters such as wealth, family dynamics perfectly lawful, ethical, moral and none of anyone's damned business anyway, charitable donations parents would rather keep anonymous and secret, or any other number of valid reasons to keep a secret. You have only presented a scenario that allows you an opportunity to scold parents for doing things you imagine they're doing simply because of a negative reaction to a question on a test.

I'd like to see you try to dumb an argument like that down. That would be quite a feat.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Furbs

 

I am not at all convinced you could dumb down your post. That would require a level that post doesn't seem to be at. The "fundamental difference" between your argument and the other argument both operate on an assumption that the only reason parents would be concerned about this test question is because they are doing something illicit that their children know of and have forced their children into an oath of secrecy. Neither argument acknowledges that a concerned parent might have their concerns rooted in the fact that if that child is aware of private matters such as wealth, family dynamics perfectly lawful, ethical, moral and none of anyone's damned business anyway, charitable donations parents would rather keep anonymous and secret, or any other number of valid reasons to keep a secret. You have only presented a scenario that allows you an opportunity to scold parents for doing things you imagine they're doing simply because of a negative reaction to a question on a test.

I'd like to see you try to dumb an argument like that down. That would be quite a feat.

For the last time, I will attempt to inform you that I am not working within your binary construct of reality. You have stated that my argument doesn't acknowledge a certain number of blah blah blahs that you can read above.
I concur, I didn't. I don't find those arguments stupid. Those are well thought out and valid points. I specifically targeted the idiots making claims that I felt were stupid.. ..as I stated in my post.

Yup, I only presented a scenario that allows for me to scold parents for involving children in their stupidity. Not imagined stupidity. Actual stupidity. Children don't keep secrets about their parents' imaginary stupidity.

reply to post by Furbs


What idiots in this thread have made the argument that they don't think a question like this should be asked because they:

Want to drugs in front of their children
Want to have crazy rough violent sex in front of their children
Cheat on their taxes and tell their kids all about, or steal cable and make it clear to their children they have...?

Who made those arguments in this thread? I missed all of that until you went on about it. Those guys, whoever made those arguments in this thread - and here is where I agree with you - should be ashamed of themselves. You guys know who you are, you're the ones who made the argument you should be able to do drugs in front of your children, have crazy rough violent sex in front of your children, cheat on your taxes and explain this to your children, and steal cable. Shame, shame, shame.

The question on the test remains inappropriate, and so much so the spokesperson for the New Jersey education board has told everyone they will not be asking the question again, and Mr. Barra (the spokesperson) agreed the question was inappropriate. So, tragically, all those members who had the audacity to enter this thread and be outraged at the idea of this question because you are afraid your child's educators are going to discover that you do drugs in front of your children, have crazy rough violent sex in front of your children, cheat on your taxes explaining to your 3rd grade child what it means to cheat on ones taxes, and steal cable, can now sigh a collective sigh of relief. The state has backed off. Your secrets are safe, but don't think that makes what you do any less shameful and the numerous arguments you made in defense of your debauchery in this thread any less shameful.

What this thread has missed completely is the perspective of the child.

What about the child's right to privacy?

When presented with this question under the authority of a test some children (trying to do their
best) would proceed as instructed and possibly deliver information about themselves that
was very private in nature and could possibly stigmatize that child throughout the rest of their school
years or further. I've already provided an excellent example in a previous post in regards to
my niece's situation.

The state has no authority to question an innocent child of their secrets...period.

And heaven help us if your kid's got an overactive imagination and decide to invent a secret!

The repercussions can be most damaging.

so no one on here knows what the question was exactly then i take it???

Originally posted by krazyiven
so no one on here knows what the question was exactly then i take it???

No it is just that most here are capable of not needing to be spoon fed to research what the question was. Since you obviously are in need of your daily feeding, I have sought out the question:

TRENTON — Some New Jersey third graders taking a state examination have been asked to reveal a secret about their lives, according to a report on NJ101.5com.

The question wasn't specific, but asked the children to reveal any secret.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


Well honestly if people don't know the real question then how would you know exactly if these schools are crossing the borders and looking into privacy issues in peoples homes. Im glad you can be spoon fed information on ads and not ask questions.

Originally posted by bastet11

Originally posted by Honor93
not only do i agree this is utterly disgusting and poorly disguised for what it is ... but, i would suggest every youngster answer such silly questions with ... secret: my teacher touched me ... and see just how long such inquiries last.

That is so NOT funny, but I laughed out loud!

i'm glad you chuckled but believe it or not, it wasn't meant to be funny ... i am totally serious.
this game can be played from both sides and i'm no pushover.

if that one was too many words (especially for such youngsters), go with this instead ... secret: My teacher swears ... or ... (if they happen to like their teacher) teachers can be mean and unfair or even ... this is a really bad lesson. Noone (even the test) says the children have to honest, truthful or real for that matter.

my point was to answer soooo abstractly, yet poignantly that such questions cease to exist.

@ mee30 - thanks, glad i could make your day
and yes, i could imagine a whole classroom or more responding in such a way ... imho, that'd be supercalifragilisiticexpealidocious !!

personally, i really like Furbs answer but in this day and age, i don't dare suggest a child mention dead ppl at school, regardless the origin of the quote.
besides, most of today's teachers wouldn't even recognize the quote anyway, but it's the best one yet
"Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead"

reply to post by krazyiven


Honestly, at this point in the thread, it has been reported over and over that a spokesperson from the education board of New Jersey has agreed the question was inappropriate and they will not be asking the question on future tests. From this, it can be reasonably extrapolated that the question was inappropriate. Further, if you were "honestly" interested in knowing the exact question you would have done the research instead of smugly entering this thread and pretending that since we don't know the exact verbiage of the question we cannot know for sure whether it was a valid question or not.

If you want to do the research to test your little hypothesis, then do it. Find the test question and if it appears to you as if that question was more innocuous than has been played in this thread then make that argument. That would be more honest.

Originally posted by krazyiven
reply to post by ownbestenemy

 

Well honestly if people don't know the real question then how would you know exactly if these schools are crossing the borders and looking into privacy issues in peoples homes. Im glad you can be spoon fed information on ads and not ask questions.

Ads? That is straight from the report. It wasn't a question that asked the kids to answer a specific secret -- but rather to just reveal a secret. That leads a child to answer about any secret and could easily been seen as an inappropriate question.

But as JPZ has stated a couple times, the spokesperson already has felt the public pressure and the question will no longer be asked. For sake of argument though -- are you okay with such a broad question being asked children? There are far better ways to bring out writing skills in children than for them to be put into that type of position.

reply to post by PurpleChiten


Well, its indeed a small 3000 people community and there is one elementary school, where we live.
What my daughter wrote is not a secret in any way. But there were other parents, I dont know about them, but they sure had their reasons to be mad.
I do think its a nosey (had to use a dictionary for that :@@ teacher. Not any kind of data collection from our government. It´s really bold as brass to demand something like that from the kids. I hate the teacher for that.
Just for snooping. Kind of Blockwart style type is this one.