Tell me I am wrong-- everyone should vote conservatively and act liberally

Originally posted by PhysicsAdept
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

Well honestly that is how a lot of people function IMO. About 25% of my income goes towards taxes, meanwhile my little brother doesn't get a healthy lunch everyday. Before I started working a few months ago, my family received NO government assistance because we are just barely out of the bracket. We make money, but because of someone in my house incurring a lot of debt many many years ago, we have no food or help (well, had). And people we knew were in slightly different (better) situations but could not help because of the life expenses they had to pay. Without them having to donate some of their income to other people... I think in my heart that they really would help

You said it yourself, your family is in trouble because of their own debt...not because of taxes.

If you had that extra tax money...I am supposed to believe you would donate it instead of paying off the debt???

Why don't you pracitce what you preach and deny the government assitance? It's unbelievable that families in your situation will actively take assistance and openly speak out against it and the ills it creates in society...and futher..you are advocating it to be taken away.

You honestly think the people you know who are only slightly better but still couldn't help because of their own expenses would take that saved tax money and hand it over to you instead of saving it, investing it, or doing something else with it to help out their own family??? If they give it all to you...then next month they lose their jobs...who helps them???

reply to post by sageofmonticello

Please tell me why government force is acceptable and how the end justify the means. These social programs are paid through stolen money. What would be wrong with a voluntary system? Why must these programs be funded through threat? Also please show me one government social program that is successful.

Is it not possible in your mind that people don't donate to charities because the government has already taken their money? I know that is why I usually don't donate to any charities. Why should I? The government has taken my tax money (otherwise known as my disposable income) and decided to be the charity.

Again...go do your homework and look up the history.

The government didn't force this on the people...the people DEMANDED it from the government....how soon we forget.

The problem with voluntary systems is that people in general are not charitable without recieving some benefit in return. This isn't an American problem...this is a human problem...and it's not going to change. Do you think that if rich people don't get a tax break from giving to charities and they don't have to pay taxes...that they are just going to start donating MORE than they already are? Do you think people on the low income scale, but still pay taxes, are going to take that tax money and give it away when that extra money means that they can improve their own lives a little?

If you don't donate to charities because you are taxed, I'm sorry but that is pretty dumb. The charity has nothing to do with the government...why would you refuse to donate because a seperate entity is taxing you??? That is maybe the dumbest thing I have ever heard. You have the ability to donate right now...you are choosing not to...don't try to blow smoke up our asses and say it's because you are taxed...you don't donate because you are just as greedy as everyone else.

reply to post by PhysicsAdept

For example: if you take a system like welfare, both conservatives and liberals agree that some people both need and deserve help. Whether it is in finding a job, getting health benefits, food to eat, every person deserves chances to get their life o track. Then you have both parties also agreeing that the system we have in place is abused... The conservatives exaggerate it and the liberals overlook some of the cons due to pride issues on both sides... but the simple fact is that the system we have put into place is not really satisfying either party or helping the right people (overall, not for every case).

So then, the question is, how do you go about a system like welfare? Vote conservatively and act liberally. Put someone into office that requires everyone to have to try... Make it socially unacceptable to abuse help and make everyone need to work in order to survive... Make competition something that is encouraged and reward harder workers with more benefits. Above all else, don't force anyone to pay taxes and dump money into programs that "help" other people. Make this, instead, choice. Morality, then, needs to be slightly reformed. As a child, if you are raised in a liberal fashion, then when your neighbor needs help, it should be your moral duty to help that person. Both Christians and liberals should already do this, yet who has the money to when they are forced to spend so much on taxes and entitlement programs? HELP THY NEIGHBOR, and support the welfare of your family, that should be the goal.

Morality doesn't need reform, it needs to be taught, period. On this, I would agree. Welfare has to be an item of last result, not a career choice.

Help your community, and delegate your funds locally... This is where we should be liberal as human beings. Promote freedom of speech and accept all others, but do not abuse the power of speech... Regulate your families in how they conduct their lives, but do not tell others how to live it. Help who you think needs to be helped, but don't force others to help you...

Self-determination, I like this. Also teach that, while you may be free to speak, others are also free to NOT listen.

A more communal sense of living and a harder-working country CAN be achieved. Our school system is failing because it is run too liberally. BUT our education system is failing because it is run to conservatively. Our neighborhoods are failing because our schools and education systems are failing, and our country is failing because of a lack of morality. WE CAN FIX THIS. We need to start voting for freedom, and we need to start teaching our children values, hard work, acceptance, and the power of caring for those around you.

A wee issue. Communal living loses individuality. Instead of communal (if it's just semantics) I'd say partnerships.

Our school system is run too liberally, AND our education system is spending too liberally. Instead of paying teacher union reps and scool superintendents 6 figure salaries, turn that into the schools for quality teachers. Make teachers accountable. Make parents accountable.

Government has said that it's okay to have the schools, a "villiage", raise your child.

Nope.

It takes parents.

Partisanship is doom... Set aside pride. It is time to start the revolution. LET PEOPLE LIVE AS THEY WANT TO! But don't expect me to pay for them to live unless I know who they are...

Agreed.

I can only hope that what I have said makes any sense. I have thoughts on this, but it isn't just easy to express them by talking to myself. If something I say isn't clear, please let us discuss this further and I know everyone could see my point.

Hmmm. On closer examination, it appears that I agree with you more than I initially thought.

Don't know if you'll appreciate this or not, but what you propose runs along Tea Party lines and not the more modern definition of "liberal".

In a nutshell;
Personal responsibility
Individuality
Self-determination.

Apologies for the length of the post, but what "liberal" attributes would you also consider?

Originally posted by sageofmonticello
reply to post by jimmyx

 

then you should move to somalia...they have no government...so you would have no more problems, there is your perfect country with no interventions.

Great argument... Somalia is certainly the model for laissez faire government and free markets. Gimme a break, that is ridiculous to assert. Somalia is in a civil war.

Anyhow I never said government wasn't necessary, to paraphrase, I said that government playing robin hood was not necessary and morally wrong and causes more problems than it solves.

I could just as easily say to you, If you like government intervention, move to cuba, there is your perfect robin hood government.

See how stupid of an argument that would be though? Is it really that hard for you to address the concerns I brought to your attention? Is it really in your mind, government social welfare or 20+ years of civil war. c'mon...

edit on 11-5-2012 by sageofmonticello because: (no reason given)

ok...so...where would you cut?....remember that cutting programs you do not agree with, will have consequences. how would you keep people that are abusing them, seperate from people that it truly helps? what criteria would you use?.....this is where the majority of problems arise, and how extremely difficult it is to come to some type of consensus.

Originally posted by PhysicsAdept
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Well conservative and liberal ideology overlap when they become extreme.... When I say conservative I mean TRUE conservative, which is hard-working, get what you deserve economy, government out of business, controlled spending and less government mandates and programs... That kind of stuff. Politics of today have by so much watered down conservative and liberal concepts

Thats your take on conservativism, sure...for me, the ideals of conservatism (lets remove the ultra religious aspects) and its treading on anarchy and caste system.

Idealistically, I am a liberal because I want a united world by the people. We need to get to a class 1 civilization, and corporate running of the world only ensures a stagnation of our species. We need smart programs that allow for prosperity amongst the people and a focus on science, meanwhile allowing for personal liberties to be protected. Looking around my neighborhood and town, conservatism is a good idea. looking around the nation and world, liberalism is the only path forward. I live in my neighborhood, but my children will live in the world...I can think of what I gain today, or what we gain tomorrow. Big picture is important.

here are 2 (non-liberal) sites that show how the "poor" are scamming the rest of us out of our hard earned tax dollars.

www.economist.com...

www.businessinsider.com...

as you can see it's those "cheating welfare people" that won't get off their asses and make something of themselves. by the way, china, india, and iran are ahead of us in income equality....the U.S. came in 93rd in the world

reply to post by beezzer


Well, and this varies so much and by saying what I will say I am really generalizing, but when I look at a liberal ideology I feel like by committing to it you admit that humans are too weak and helpless to help themselves and that your way of thinking is higher than other ideologies. You know, I want this regulation here because I think my opinion is better than yours. And: I have no hope you can take care of yourself if you tried to so I will allow you to be the governments problem, which we can all solve if we work together...

Now this means as a liberal that, IMO you are kind of admitting defeat and are looking toward an easy way out of bigger issues. That will cause a lot of flak when I post this, I am sure... but that is not the part of liberal ideology that I think we need to instill as a country. A liberal should be willing to sacrifice for the benefit of his fellow beings, and is cooperative in finding solutions to problems that are obvious. So I think everyone should be a liberal in their home life for this reason, as it promotes general welfare of everyone through contact but does not assume that everyone requires it on a country-wide scale, nor does it assume that every case should be treated the same. A liberal in local practice should be exemplary in demonstrating care and respect for all others, yet the conservative idealism that would be in place nationally would never require it for anyone. SO hopefully this would lead towards everyone working for everything they want, and receiving help when needed (not solely want-based if you know what I mean). I hope I did not dance around your question, if I did then let me know and I will try to answer it another way.

reply to post by jimmyx


Well, leave it up to locals to figure things out, which could mean a liberal solution. Of course population diffusion should occur, and where it cannot, natural charities should be available to fix the rest. Our current situation does not work, so who is to say this would not?

reply to post by SaturnFX


Well, exactly. Everyone wants to optimistically be liberal but realistically needs to be conservative...

reply to post by PhysicsAdept


Instead of being MORE liberal in one area, or MORE conservative in other areas, a suggestion.

How about being LESS liberal in social spending.
And LESS conservative in social applicatons.

reply to post by beezzer


Eh who knows what the answer is. In the end we are all looking out for ourselves I guess... The world sucks. What will we be able to do to fix it in the end? No one knows. No one people can completely cooperate or understand every aspect. Though I think the bipartisanship is, modestly, a bad side-effect of corporate politics. Liberal, conservative... are just words.

As someone who's really had the end of the stick that's without a handle, sometimes there's not anything that *can* be done by an individual to advance in life enough to sustain themselves even through hard work, clean living, and the best of intentions. Although, I've already learned the lesson that life isn't fair. ^_^