"Dad! They're Killing Me!"

I blame capitalism

a socialist nation would have been able to offer him assistamce regardless of his ability to pay

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
I blame capitalism

a socialist nation would have been able to offer him assistamce regardless of his ability to pay

Of course, if you represent anything like a socialist then it should be clear the system failed you in reading comprehension, and critical thinking skills, since no one anywhere is reporting that Kelly Thomas was turned away from medical assistance because of an inability to pay. Kelly Thomas did not want medical assistance of this so called "mental illness" he has been labeled with, and the thugs who murdered him are not a part of any capitalist system either.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I read more about this case, he sounded lucid to me on the video, and no drugs were found in his system, I also saw a picture of what they did to him,

This is sickening.

Apparently, he was living on the street in the cardboard box. I think the normal procedure would be to arrest him for vagrancy. If I made a wild speculation, one of the city leaders probably asked the police to eliminate the situation. I hope all six officers regret the decision they made that night for the rest of their lives. I also noticed possibly an eyewitness walked past the cameras view, not that an eyewitness makes any difference in this case, it was very well documented

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

I read more about this case, he sounded lucid to me on the video, and no drugs were found in his system, I also saw a picture of what they did to him,

This is sickening.

No drugs found in his system, no incriminating evidence found on his person, nor his back pack and the supposed call made by an "anonymous caller" complaining of someone breaking into vehicles near by has never been official verified, nor has there ever been any reports made by anyone claiming their car was vandalized or broken into in that area on the night of July 5th.

This was a gangland beating in the truest sense of the word.

Edit to Add:

This link will take you to Fullerton Stories Police Log for the dates of July 3rd to July 9th of 2011. No evidence what-so-ever of any vandalized vehicles near the Fullerton Transit Area.

It does seem rather preposterous to blame this incident on a lack of mental health facilities/treatment options for those with issues. The cops are to blame, plain and simple. Anyone who would stand by and watch, or participate in the systematic abuse doled out to this man is complicit in his murder. This is a very interesting thread and I am pleased to have read it. Something about the media breathlessly highlighting the mans mental condition after he was beat to death struck me as wrong, but I couldn't quite place it. You summed it up quite well.

Originally posted by lacrimosa
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

no body was murdered, a schizophrenic homeless person died.
those police did nothing wrong. they were overly nice imo.
anyway, the outcome was positive.

Is this a joke?

If your gonna say something so strange, at least give more details.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

I cannot even imagine how difficult this must be for you and other good cops forced to confront a situation like this. How can any good cop even sleep at night knowing that - at the very least some of them - are deep within enemy lines forced to share trenches with the enemy and call them brothers?

For many it is truly impossible. My dad had a friend in the 1980s that had a complete psychological break because of things he saw as a cop.

I am lucky that the department where I work does not have this type of issue. There is zero tolerance for abuse and intentionally negligent behavior. Our comand would never have stood for this. They continue to make examples of officers even if they fail to file a use of force report in a timely manner. We also routinely attend meetings with local comunity activist to ensure that our relationships and image in the community are strong.

I am sad that nothing has been done to curb the long history of such actions in LA and surrounding areas.

I am not at all in support of forcing any person against their will into any institution until they have shown themselves to a genuine threat to others.

I agree for the most part. However, under some circumstances I think we should include a threat to their own life. Some people don't realize their own behavior will cost their life. Since they can not competently make that decision, I do think they need close monitorring or institutionalization.

By all accounts Kelly Thomas was not threat to anyone, including himself.

I agree that it seems that way. All I meant was that he seemed to be showing some small signs. The childish comment about not being able to put his hands on his knees and put his feet forward comes to mind. It isn't anything threatening, but it is a sign that something is off. I do not believe that Thomas was any threat until the officer told him his was going to beat him with his fists. In my opinion at that point Thomas believed he was acting in self defense. Unfortunately he really was.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I didnt bite that bait! That guy you are responding to is being so bad, I knew not- Thanks for the other information! I have only worked 2 hours on it and started another thread.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Did anyone check the poor man for overdose of Insulin? MY Instinct- The Police Murdered Him and the Medics may have played a role in it. Shot in the heel of the foot would go un-noticed.

reply to post by MikeNice81

I agree for the most part. However, under some circumstances I think we should include a threat to their own life.

I was being a bit cagey in leaving that qualification out, and here's why: Who determines when one is a threat to themselves? Of course, such a thing should be self evident, but given the nature of this thread and the clear and undeniable obfuscation by mental health "advocates" and the press, what if someone had determined Kelly Thomas was a threat to himself before this incident?

I always have a problem posting images in this site and instead of simply just pasting them to a post I always wind up getting that image link, but of all the photographs I have seen of Kelly Thomas, every single one shows a happy young man who seems to be thrilled to be alive. I realize that photos do not tally up the sum of a persons life, but there is truth in the saying that a picture paints a thousand words, of the many joyous photos of Kelly Thomas, there are thousands of words to suggest he was a happy joyful man who just happened to live on the fringes of society.

reply to post by Apollo7


I would guess it to be more likely he died of internal injuries. Probably the tazer was meant to send him into cardiac arrest, being young looks like the batteries ran down. If you noticed towards the end one cop is pushing against the side of the police car to get more force with one foot on Kelly as he is trying to squeeze the life out of him. I have only seen the video twice and I am not planning on watching it again, it’s sick

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


You are correct. It is a razor thin line and would be ripe for abuse.

I was thinking of a woman that was sleeping on the sidewalk in a t-shirt and shorts when it was below freezing.The expected low was in the single digits that night. She was already showing early signs of hypothermia. We arrested her to save her life.

She refused to go to a shelter. She said that she was afraid the people running the shelter would eat her soul and condemn her to hell.

Those are the types of people I was thinking about.

I don't care what your job title is- president, policeman, beautician, detective...

You are supposed to be HUMAN first. Human first, then cop.
If not human, then, monster.

Monsters belong in the zoo or shot.
Put them all in cages.

reply to post by MikeNice81


The woman you just described would certainly be that self evident circumstance I was talking about. It would certainly appear as if she was a threat to herself. Tragically, there are many like her wandering the streets in our cities, and towns. These are the obviously mentally ill. Then there is just the simmering insanity that lurks deep within too many of us as we distractedly call ourselves civilized, and agree to go along with a system that has long since past entropic and is knee deep in chaos.

The insanity of the Fullerton six, in many ways is a reflection of us all. Kelly Thomas is not. Kelly Thomas, regardless of his mental state, was just a man doing his best to get by in an insane world, where most of the insane have learned to camouflage their insanity behind costumes and uniforms, behind their speeding cars, their gated communities, their chain-locked and triple locked apartment doors, their framed credentials and diplomas, too terrified to break free of this insanity and demand we all return to saner times.

I am proud to call you my friend and can only hope that the both of us, as well as the many good people in this site are the sane ones and not the deluded fools who just cannot understand why humanity should be less than what we expect of each other.

It's happening everywhere, Cops Killing people - and you sue the town - and the town raises taxes - and the cop walks with a out of court settlement. I'm just sick of the whole system. I say the start is voting in Ron Paul. and then we replace everyone who can not pass a polygraph - something simple like "have you served the citizens with honesty and integrety - because if they dont have that ... I dont want them employed... currently its the opposite - if you have them you fired. I dont know what you guys do, but I always strike up conversations while waiting in a line - grocery store - walmart - bank - even at the gas station to the guy on the other side of the pump.... and a year ago Ron Who ?> and now, it almost 80% know who he is ... and I always give them something to do.... check out Ron's house, Nice yes - but a mansion it isn't. he is a regular joe. and whats not to like > ? and you know they always repeat what the news agencies are saying.... his foreign policy... ha ha ha --- I say do you support the troops ... and they 100% say Yes... and then I say - well they are behind Ron Paul. and currently we are in two illegal wars and there is good reason to believe we have been lied to about 911 as well. and in less than 5 minutes - I got someone interested in voting for Ron and those that check him out - without a doubt are going to vote this year.... I think I am going to add how would you like to save 25million American lives - Vote for Ron Paul.... you know - the resent release of the Army Re-Education Camp Manual... and Infowars.com had a speaker who attended the "Weather Underground" meetings, which appears to be the blue print for what Obama is doing to destroy our beloved nation. and hey- think i will toss in some Joe Arpaio as the cherry on the RevolUTION. GO RON GO... we got your back.

Those cops are criminals and murderers simply put.

I have had many experiences with mental illness and it is a difficult thing trying to
help people who are content. It is hard to tell where the line is of helping and being
dictatorial... I don think the public mental health resources are spread thin at times,
but it is sick to blame a victim, it reminds me of Martin in some ways. But it is more
bothersome for me simply because I feel that way.

First, this may not be an "insidious scheme" to focus blame on the victim. Like it or not it does point out the fact that a lack of services and solutions for mental health leaves the police and detention system to deal with the overflow. This is a fact in pretty much every city in the country.

I'm not saying there isn't an effort to try and "blame the victim" here. That's the difference between an attorney and a superstar attorney the likes of those who defended OJ, etc. They are smart enough to manipulate the media and public opinion so much that they can deliver magic results to clients who would have certainly lost otherwise.

Justice in America might be blind but she definitely gives different people different results based on how wealthy they are and how much they're willing to spend.

This is nothing new, however. In an age of internet and TV a lot of people begin to think of these large social issues as abstract concepts rather than real problems affecting real people. It's cause and effect - we've neglected our mental health system in America via lack of funding and the effect is that sick people go untreated, receive less / worse treatment than they need and quite a few end up in our jails / prisons.

There are so few to no facilities for in patient care of violent or severely mentally ill people that our jails and prisons end up having to provide care they are not trained or equipped to deal with in facilities that are not designed for that purpose.

It doesn't make what the police did OK, or right. I can understand the level of frustration they might feel and how they might react a certain way to make sure they don't end up injured or killed (it can and does happen) but the police are subject to the same laws you and I are. People might understand or even empathize with me if I was forced into a physical altercation against my wishes. BUT, if the other person dies as a result you can bet the system will prosecute me and I will probably end up going to prison.

The police in this case deserve no less. They're being prosecuted and will face the consequences of their actions. Even if this is all being driven by the efforts of some high power legal team to try and soften a jury to be sympathetic to the cops, it's probably not going to work in this case. This kid is no Rodney King they can make out to be the devil in a Hugo. Some of these cops will go to jail over this and most if not all of them will either lose their jobs or be left with a worthless career.

reply to post by ecoparity


First, whether you like this or not, the Fullerton police were not hopelessly and haplessly tasked with dealing with some out of control mentally ill person. To the best of my knowledge, there is no record of the Fullerton police ever having to restrain or deal with an out of control Kelly Thomas before this day. The Fullerton Chief of police - disappearing on medical leave after this incident - finally retired in February of this year, never - not once - offering up any record to indict Kelly Thomas as being some out of control mentally unstable man who regularly caused Fullerton police officers problems.

Secondly, regardless of how few inpatient care facilities there may be for the mentally unstable, I am getting a little tired of pointing out that Kelly Thomas did not want this! Using Kelly Thomas as a poster boy for a beleaguered mental health care system is nothing more than shameless opportunism. Worse than that, the real problem here is a culture of Dirty Harry cops who believe they are above the law and can act upon their own private beliefs using their badges and weapons to further their own personal agendas. This problem should not be overshadowed by an agenda that has little to do with why Kelly Thomas was brutally murdered.

Kelly Thomas was not murdered because he was mentally unstable. Kelly Thomas was brutally murdered because six Fullerton police officers were mentally unstable, and had The L.A. Times and mental health "advocates" taken this position to further their agenda, this thread wouldn't even exist. Instead, both the press and these mental health "advocates" obfuscated the truth, even going as far as to willingly misrepresent Kelly Thomas' predicament that night and imply he was more violent and uncontrollable than is actually the case.

Well, after carefully watching the full video I have bad news for you. None of the police in this incident will be convicted of murder or any other felony.

There's a small chance the original officer who was dealing with Kelly while he was still sitting on the bench will be reprimanded, possibly even fired, maybe charged with official oppression but beyond that there's not a snow ball's chance in hell of the rest of the cops being convicted.

Though the first officer acted in an unprofessional manner and probably provoked much of what followed, once Kelly jumped to his feet, ran and began fighting back I don't see any of the officers doing anything they are not allowed to do by policy and law. Sorry, I know it looks brutal as hell but this is no Rodney King incident with 6 officers standing over a prostrate or handcuffed victim, kicking him to death and beating him with clubs.

When the police tell you to get down on the ground your best bet is to play jelly fish. Lay face down, relax your entire body and put both hands behind your back. Anything and I mean anything else is legal resistance and they can hit you, strike you with a club, taze you, knee you - whatever they feel is necessary to gain compliance.

Kelly continued to resist much further into the incident than I could believe, refusing to place his hands behind is back and fighting back. 3 large men were unable to hold him down. It's hard to see on the video but what you can see and hear indicates he was fighting back and doing so with so much strength the officers were convinced he was "on something".

If a cop comes up to you and starts acting as aggressive as the first one did, that's a clue to STFU. You can choose to argue, ignore officer commands, etc but you do so at your own peril.

I need to read some more, details on what exactly was the cause of death, etc. They OP and several articles seem to push the position that he was choking to death and died much earlier in the video than what actually happened. If you can scream "I can't breath" you are getting enough oxygen to sustain life.

Without reading anything, my guess is probably aspirated his own blood. If he was restrained in a specific position which makes it very, very difficult to breath that might explain why he died. If you're bound in one of these types of positions you can't breath deeply and if he was aspirating blood he would have basically drowned in his own fluids.

I'm not saying what happened to him was right or justified in any way but based on polices and laws I don't see any of those cops being convicted of murder, man slaughter, etc.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by ecoparity

 

First, whether you like this or not, the Fullerton police were not hopelessly and haplessly tasked with dealing with some out of control mentally ill person. To the best of my knowledge, there is no record of the Fullerton police ever having to restrain or deal with an out of control Kelly Thomas before this day. The Fullerton Chief of police - disappearing on medical leave after this incident - finally retired in February of this year, never - not once - offering up any record to indict Kelly Thomas as being some out of control mentally unstable man who regularly caused Fullerton police officers problems.

Secondly, regardless of how few inpatient care facilities there may be for the mentally unstable, I am getting a little tired of pointing out that Kelly Thomas did not want this! Using Kelly Thomas as a poster boy for a beleaguered mental health care system is nothing more than shameless opportunism. Worse than that, the real problem here is a culture of Dirty Harry cops who believe they are above the law and can act upon their own private beliefs using their badges and weapons to further their own personal agendas. This problem should not be overshadowed by an agenda that has little to do with why Kelly Thomas was brutally murdered.

Kelly Thomas was not murdered because he was mentally unstable. Kelly Thomas was brutally murdered because six Fullerton police officers were mentally unstable, and had The L.A. Times and mental health "advocates" taken this position to further their agenda, this thread wouldn't even exist. Instead, both the press and these mental health "advocates" obfuscated the truth, even going as far as to willingly misrepresent Kelly Thomas' predicament that night and imply he was more violent and uncontrollable than is actually the case.