Have You Seen the Attention-Grabbing New TIME Cover?

reply to post by RicoMarston


Comparing playing with toys to breastfeeding, that's way out in left field buddy.

Originally posted by rtyfx
You don't see animals feeding their young that long. They snap at their young after a certain period of time because it's time to be weaned. And they do it young.

Something is wrong here.

 

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Huh? Which animals are we speaking of?

A Natural Age of Weaning

1. In a group of 21 species of non-human primates (monkeys and apes) studied by Holly Smith, she found that the offspring were weaned at the same time they were getting their first permanent molars. In humans, that would be: 5.5-6.0 years.

2. It has been common for pediatricians to claim that length of gestation is approximately equal to length of nursing in many species, suggesting a weaning age of 9 months for humans. However, this relationship turns out to be affected by how large the adult animals are -- the larger the adults, the longer the length of breastfeeding relative to gestation. For chimpanzees and gorillas, the two primates closest in size to humans and also the most closely genetically related, the relationship is 6 to 1. That is to say, they nurse their offspring for SIX times the length of gestation (actually 6.1 for chimps and 6.4 for gorillas, with humans mid-way in size between these two). In humans, that would be: 4.5 years of nursing (six times the 9 months of gestation).

3. It has been common for pediatricians to claim that most mammals wean their offspring when they have tripled their birth weight, suggesting a weaning age of 1 year in humans. Again though, this is affected by body weight, with larger mammals nursing their offspring until they have quadrupled their birth weight. In humans, quadrupling of birth weight occurs between 2.5 and 3.5 years, usually.

4. One study of primates showed that the offspring were weaned when they had reached about 1/3 their adult weight. This happens in humans at about 5-7 years.

5. A comparison of weaning age and sexual maturity in non-human primates suggests a weaning age of 6-7 for humans (about half-way to reproductive maturity). 6. Studies have shown that a child's immune system doesn't completely mature until about 6 years of age, and it is well established that breast milk helps develop the immune system and augment it with maternal antibodies as long as breast milk is produced (up to two years, no studies have been done on breast milk composition after two years post partum).

And on and on. The minimum predicted age for a natural age of weaning in humans is 2.5 years, with a maximum of 7.0 years.

Let's look to our closest species for some perspective before we all race hastily down judgement alley...

Primate Factsheet: Chimpanzee

Not until three years of age do young chimpanzees venture more than five meters from their mothers, and between ages four and six, the period of infancy ends with weaning (Bard 1995).

Primate Factsheets: Bonobo

Bonobos are not weaned until four or five years of age. They are sustained by nursing for the first year of life, and though they may mouth food, they never consume it in the first year

Primate Factsheets: Gorilla

The juvenile period is from three to six years and is characterized by a decrease in maternal grooming, no longer sharing a sleeping nest with the mother, and weaning (Stewart 2001). Because of the enormity of the task of rearing infants and the stress of lactation on the mother's body, female gorillas experience lactational amenorrhea until the infant is weaned at three or four years.

What is so wrong with bf'ing past the age of 1?? Perhaps that picture was unnecessary but good lord, some of the comments on here are very gut reaction with little to no actual knowledge of how good it is for your baby to receive a mothers milk for an extended period of time.

I wish I could have breastfed my child for longer than 10 months however I was stressed at the time and had to quit. Mothers milk is superior for a growing babys immune system and to feed the brain.

Do a little research come on people! Just because something doesn't line up with your way of thinking doesn't mean it is gross, wrong, or god forbid child porn like some of you have mentioned! Now THAT is a sick way of looking at it.

Let us not forget the primary reason a breast exists in the first place!!!

Originally posted by Gazrok
No, she isn't a selfish b#tch, but she is selfish.

I just got caught on this sentence and couldn't find any more that explains what you mean?
How do you figure she is selfish?

I mean, I guess she might be doing it to get a sense that she is being the most perfect mom possible.... but that is pretty much what all moms try to do, (even if they have different ideas on what that means).... is that really a selfish attitude?

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by RicoMarston

 

Comparing playing with toys to breastfeeding, that's way out in left field buddy.

well, the line for why this is wrong seems to be "at some point, you've got to say no" or "at some point the kid's got to grow up." so where do we stop using this logic? does this stance, that at some point the kid's got to be cut off, ONLY apply to breast feeding?

when you're using a metaphor, it's best to use one which highlights your point. I'm saying that it's silly and arbitrary to assign an exact date to the end of breast feeding. its an individual choice based on the pace of development, the relationship between mother and child, etc. So is playing with toys an individual choice. You could also argue that playing with toys into your teen years will make you immature and affect your self-reliance. Which is exactly what some people on here are claiming the mother has done to the child.

tell me, when using metaphor to support a point, do you look for the most mundane and unsurprising comparison? or do you instead prefer to argue effectively?

maybe it was a stretch, but you could actual reply to the substance of the post instead of the chosen metaphor. but... that would require you to think...

Where many of my friends and neighbors are beginning to feel the pangs of pre-teen rebellion in their children of this age, my child still essentially respects and adheres to our family principles.

Where I'd argue that the pre-teen rebellion is PART of a child's development, of testing his/her boundaries, and developing an identity of their own, along with their own ideas and dreams vs. those embraced by the family. Right or wrong, we learn more from our mistakes than we do from following direction.

Granted, nothing is a blanket solution or method for all children. They are as different as fingerprints. Still, it's a safe bet (as in that movie clip earlier in this thread), that if everyone around you is making a face...that maybe, just maybe, the kid is a bit too old to breast-feed (and yeah, the kid on the Time cover does look older than 3).

18 months? Fine, I don't think anyone here will argue....but once the convention changes from months to years for saying your kid's age (i.e. after 23 months), it's time to stow the boobies... (and this is from a guy who really appreciates them)....

And, if by some rare circumstance, a doctor deems it necessary for a child to drink mother's milk after this, I'd recommend keeping it on ice vs. drinking from the tap....

when i'm on the exact opposite side of an issue with somebody, i like to find a place where we both agree. I'm glad to hear you say that children should only be removed from their family home in the most extreme cases and as a last resort.

I've learned far more from those who disagree with me, than I've ever learned from those that do.

Be careful what you wish for - you just might get it.

Judging from the responses I've seen there's 2 major themes at play here and I would implore you all to examine the issue from as many viewpoints as possible.

1)That breasts and breast feeding are sexual in nature. Sure they want to sell more formula, so tell mothers that their breast milk isn't the best food for their kids (even if it is). Turn breasts in to sexual objects and use them provocatively in advertising even though they have nothing to do with sex or reproduction.

2) Demanding that 3 year olds stop such behavior and "grow up". at 3?! We have seen younger and younger children being charged with crimes, kids sent home from school for "inappropriate touching (hugging)" and other such nonsense. TPTB can't stand the fact that children are still basically free and unresponsive to the demands of government and industry so they are creating memes to make us all demand that children grow up faster and act more like tiny adults all the while telling us this is for their own good or protection.
This is sick behavior and deprives children of their freedom to play and dream - to be kids basically. It's just more and more ways to control humanity from the cradle to the grave. every last step of the way.

One of my best friends when I was 9 was beaten badly by his father for having a dirty magazine under his bed. He was never able to socialize with girls as a teen and later killed himself. That is what pushing adult demands on to children does to them. His dad was a cop and constantly berated him and his siblings for the tiniest infractions. His younger brother ended up in prison for selling drugs. They were kids once, very innocent and fun to have as friends. They could have been great adults if they had been allowed to grow up at a more natural pace.

We SHOULD compare ourselves to animals because WE ARE animals.

If you doubt it, look at the guts of any animal. They work the same way we do.

They wean very young, and so should we.


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I think she just likes someone sucking on her tit.


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reply to post by Asktheanimals


1) I do NOT feel that breastfeeding is in ANY way a sexual act, between a mother and child (or even a surrogate and child)

2) I DO feel that after 2, a child is too old to be breastfeeding, as a social norm. I do not think this is forcing them to "grow up".

reply to post by Gazrok


Nothing wrong with pre-teen rebellion. But 9 years old?

Even so, according to tenets of Attachment Parenting, all children do and should go through a natural stage of rebellion but by putting your children's needs first and that of your family - forming a strong attachment - makes them more likely to rebound back to the core values of your family when the rebellious stage is over. Plus, they are less likely to reject the parents personally and more likely to just try new and different experiences than those practiced or sanctioned by the family.

Originally posted by rtyfx
We SHOULD compare ourselves to animals because WE ARE animals.

 

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www.abovetopsecret.com...

I love how you just completely ignored my fact filled response to you earlier. Why don't you take your own advice!

Originally posted by rtyfx
We SHOULD compare ourselves to animals because WE ARE animals.

If you doubt it, look at the guts of any animal. They work the same way we do.

They wean very young, and so should we.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

What are you thoughts on the two posts referencing the comparisons of non human primates? Shouldn't we be comparing ourselves to primates instead of just mammals in general? Or if you look at developmental milestones of mammals in general, aren't the %'s of weaning vs. development supporting extended breastfeeding?

Originally posted by Gazrok

Where many of my friends and neighbors are beginning to feel the pangs of pre-teen rebellion in their children of this age, my child still essentially respects and adheres to our family principles.

Where I'd argue that the pre-teen rebellion is PART of a child's development, of testing his/her boundaries, and developing an identity of their own, along with their own ideas and dreams vs. those embraced by the family. Right or wrong, we learn more from our mistakes than we do from following direction.

Granted, nothing is a blanket solution or method for all children. They are as different as fingerprints. Still, it's a safe bet (as in that movie clip earlier in this thread), that if everyone around you is making a face...that maybe, just maybe, the kid is a bit too old to breast-feed (and yeah, the kid on the Time cover does look older than 3).

18 months? Fine, I don't think anyone here will argue....but once the convention changes from months to years for saying your kid's age (i.e. after 23 months), it's time to stow the boobies... (and this is from a guy who really appreciates them)....

And, if by some rare circumstance, a doctor deems it necessary for a child to drink mother's milk after this, I'd recommend keeping it on ice vs. drinking from the tap....

surely you see where your OPINION ends and the mother's RESPONSIBILITY begins?

"if everyone around you is making a face... the kid is a bit too old to breast feed" this line of thought is influenced by other peoples' reactions and not anything to do with the actual child and his or her individual wants/needs/rights.

if you choose to live your life and make your decisions based on public reaction, good for you. just don't expect everyone to do the same. some are capable of thinking for themselves, making their own decisions and being responsible.

I've never read a single book or article on parenting and i seem to be doing well enough. my daughter acts out only if she's tired or hungry, always makes a good first impression, calls people "miss, and sir" (at 3!), loves to go play at the park and says "hi" to every child she meets... i could go on and on she's so awesome. but my point is; she's MY daughter and there's no way in this whole wide world that YOU know what's best for her better than I do. especially not based on one photo or your gut reaction to what we look like or how we conduct ourselves.

when the only argument(s) against are "it looks weird" or "that kid is going to be a sissy!" and the argument(s) for are "digestive and immune system benefits" "relationship strengthening" or "maximizing healthy development" it should really be a no brainer. I'd much rather my daughter was a little more dependent and a little healthier than the other way round.

reply to post by celestialpink


there's plenty of research noting the benefits of breast feeding in human animals, we don't even need to look at the overwhelming examples of other mammalian species weaning further into maturity than we do (on average).

the argument here isn't whether or not it's beneficial. no, those against this mother are arguing based on their FEELINGS around the issue. that's an argument you can't win.

"ew, breast feeding is weird!!"
"you're gonna make that boy soft and YELLA"
"these hippy liberals are tearing down our family values!"

over doing something incredibly beneficial for your child a little bit too long? oh, america. you so cray.

www.askdrsears.com...



What it says specifically about toddler independence:

Separate gradually. Best odds for a baby developing a healthy sense of self is for the baby to separate from the mother and not the mother from the baby. Discipline problems are less likely to occur when baby separates from mother gradually. When the baby inside the toddler remains connected, the toddler part of this growing person feels more secure to go off on his own. The connected child takes a bit of mother with him for comfort and advice during his explorations. It's like having the best of both worlds -- oneness, yet separateness...

...The problem with many of the modern theories about discipline is that they focus so much on fostering independence that they lose sight of the necessity for a toddler to continue a healthy dependence. Try to achieve the delicate balance between maintaining the connection and encouraging self-reliance.

Really though, you just have to be the kind of parent YOUR child needs you to be. That is essentially a paraphrase from Dr. Sears. Forget the judgment of other people or even the well-intentioned advice of "experts".

Skipped through pages but this also reminds me of Game of Thrones (if anyone is watching it), there is an older boy sucking on a womans breasts

reply to post by seeker11


You really shouldnt liken people to monkeys

i am trying really hard to be offended or seeing how this is a big deal at all.

People care too much about what other people do.

Big freaking deal. It's not your kid. YOU are the ones who need to grow up.