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Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

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posted on May, 11 2012 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Christ did not deny equality to women, therefore anyone who denies equality to women is not following Christ. Anyone who does not follow Christ is not a Christian.

If I call myself a vegan but eat meat everyday am I a vegan?

So why if I call myself a Christian but don't follow Christ am I still considered a Christian?
[/quote

Genesis 3 16;and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This does not agree with your "Christ did not deny equality to women,"

Regards
DL




posted on May, 11 2012 @ 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by sacgamer25
[

I think seeing a truly repentant sinner may actually help the victim forgive so that God's mercy is shown to the victim through the sinner.


The O P has nothing to do with repenting.

It has to do with justice for the victim and his or her right to forgive or not.

Regards
DL


God's mercy does not take away the victims right to forgive or not. And most likely the only way the victim will know that the sinner is sorry is if they truly repent.

Doesn't the bible say that God has mercy on those who have mercy? If a sinner does not repent they have not shown mercy so they will not be shown God's mercy.


Forgiveness is healthy for the victim and the victim has no need for the sinner to repent in order to forgive and gain from it.

If he does forgive then unless you think a debt has to be paid twice, God forgiveness is not required.

Does a debt need to be paid twice?

Regards
DL



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


That's what hell is for.

And BTW, it's extremely arrogant to demand that God has to work by your rules.

And here's the thing, people can't be perfect. If we can never be forgiven for any mistake we make, why should we even try?

If I can't be forgiven for my mistakes, I just can't see the point of going on anymore. None what so ever.

We all make mistakes, some of us make worse mistakes than others.



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by dbates
The answer to your question can be found by reading Matthew 25:34-45.


For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’


All sins and crimes are sins against God. Anything you do to other people, good or bad, is an action done to God. There is much more to being made in the image of God than our appearance. Also the point of view that we're actually sinning against the actual person is skewed. The physical body you posses isn't the real you. It is merely your avatar in this dimension.

Does that make sense?
edit on 5/10/2012 by dbates because: (no reason given)


Not in the least.

One must have a super swollen head to think they can hurt a God.
God cannot be hurt. Not even your imaginary one.

Regards
DL



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Greatest I am
 




I see. So a raped girl is not a victim.

They will be pleased to hear that Christian.


Yep, and it only gets worse! The rape victim must now "forgive" her rapist, or, as Jesus clearly says many times, forgive or you will not be forgiven youself, by god the father.

So somehow, she has to find something unaquirable in order to gain salvation. Incredible!


No argument.

Regards
DL



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Greatest I am
 




I see. So a raped girl is not a victim.

They will be pleased to hear that Christian.


Yep, and it only gets worse! The rape victim must now "forgive" her rapist, or, as Jesus clearly says many times, forgive or you will not be forgiven youself, by god the father.

So somehow, she has to find something unaquirable in order to gain salvation. Incredible!


Yeshua never said it would be easy. You keep forgetting that book wasn't written for nonbelievers. Who was he addressing when he spoke it? Right, his believers.

If a woman can forgive the man who killed her child for drunk driving, and then advocate for the court to show him mercy, that is proof it is doable, but she's a believer in Yeshua ha'Meshiach so she can do what you perhaps cannot.

articles.mcall.com...

When the rubber meets the road, it's about forgiveness. Forgive and you shall have forgiveness. Be merciful and you shall have mercy. Hating and holding grudges does not undo what was done, but it will poison your soul until it consumes you.


Yet Christians are to live with what should be the guilt of them profiting from the murder of an innocent man and using a scapegoat Jesus.

That immoral position should poison any soul yet Christians are to embrace it.

Regards
DL



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by windword
 


That's what hell is for.


Hell is a made up idea. It's a contrived projection to scare people into submission.



And BTW, it's extremely arrogant to demand that God has to work by your rules.


Welcome to religion 101! Christians made up a new god and set the new god rules.



And here's the thing, people can't be perfect. If we can never be forgiven for any mistake we make, why should we even try?


Why should god forgive us because he made us imperfect? Shouldn't we be forgiving god for his mistakes?



If I can't be forgiven for my mistakes, I just can't see the point of going on anymore. None what so ever.

We all make mistakes, some of us make worse mistakes than others.


Can you forgive yourself and others? That should be enough.

You are your own judge, and the way we maintain our interpersonal relationships reflects on our life's value.

I don't need to feel like some god has forgiven me to continue to find my life viable, as I don't consider myself to be a wretched sinner, just a normal person trying to get along in this world.

I don't believe in a personal god or creator, that works by the rules of Christianity. I believe in an energy force that is non-committal and uninvolved. I do believe in a spiritual hierarchy.



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
So what you're saying is God shouldn't forgive people.

That pretty much ruins the tenets of Christianity.

Christianity is about saving souls. And at least as far as I know, the only way to save a persons' soul is through God's forgiveness.

Another thing you're saying is once a crime has been committed, that person should never be forgiven for that crime (or sin) under any circumstance and never be given a second, or even a third chance, to become a better person.

If Christianity operated on your premise, then no one would be saved, even for the most minor infractions, and absolutely no one would go to heaven.

So then what would be the entire point of Christianity?



I am not saying any of this.

I am saying that forgiveness from the victim negates the need for God forgiving.

Who the hell is God to forgive something done to me or to you?

Who has a need to forgive and take the benefits of forgiving?

You or a God who is a third party who cannot in any way be hurt?

Regards
DL



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by windword
 


That's what hell is for.

And BTW, it's extremely arrogant to demand that God has to work by your rules.

And here's the thing, people can't be perfect. If we can never be forgiven for any mistake we make, why should we even try?

If I can't be forgiven for my mistakes, I just can't see the point of going on anymore. None what so ever.

We all make mistakes, some of us make worse mistakes than others.


True. And who should forgive you?
The one hurt or some fantasy God.

What is more worthy?
Forgiveness known and based on reality or forgiveness from a myth, or a third party if you believe, while ignoring the true victim?

Regards
DL



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.


The only victim of sin is the creator within us all.


Originally posted by Greatest I am
The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.


Forgiveness is a grace which comes from within us all.



Originally posted by Greatest I am
If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.


Jesus is not a usurper but rather one who allows the grace of forgiveness to flow through him to all others.


Originally posted by Greatest I am
Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.


Closure will not come to one who will not allow himself to forgive.


Originally posted by Greatest I am
Jesus would not condone such a thing.


When the adulterer was brought before him, was the husband assessed by Jesus to see that closure was found?

The thief on the cross, was his "victim" assessed of closure before his forgiveness was granted?

I can forgive a murderer without the "victim" forgiving the murderer, but without the "victim" doing the forgiving, healing and closure will not come nor will it come through vengeance. Thus, it may appear that my forgiveness is without merit. However, my forgiveness is forgiveness for the ignorance of mankind. For if they knew as Jesus knew, that what we do to each other we do unto the creator who made us, then they would not do as they do, but rather live in mutual love and affection of the highest degree.

So, forgive all that all may know the divinity within you as a reflection of themselves whom they have forgotten.



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 10:45 PM
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reply to post by AManYouALL
 


It sounds all so sweet and polyanna, but in reality, the blood sacrifice of an innocent human being, 2000 years ago, can't be a scapegoat, wiping clean and bearing the responsibility for every atrocity perpetrated against humanity, by humanity.


edit on 11-5-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 10:53 PM
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Originally posted by windword
It sounds all so sweet and polyanna, but in reality, the blood sacrifice of an innocent human being, 2000 years ago, can't be a scapegoat, wiping clean and bearing the responsibility for every atrocity perpetrated against humanity, by humanity.


I am sorry but I do not see in my reply where I eluded to a blood sacrifice of anything 2000 years ago.

Would you mind pointing out what I posted that supports your reply?



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by AManYouALL
 


Wasn't Jesus sacrificed by god, for our sins, according to Christianity? Isn't it his blood that redeems? Isn't he the sacrificial lamb of god?

That's the way I learned it.



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by AManYouALL
 


Wasn't Jesus sacrificed by god, for our sins, according to Christianity? Isn't it his blood that redeems? Isn't he the sacrificial lamb of god?

That's the way I learned it.


That has nothing to do with what I posted.

Is there anything in my post that you can comment on?



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 12:43 AM
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reply to post by AManYouALL
 


Of course, the blood sacrifice of Jesus is relevant in this discussion. The OP asks how can god or Jesus dispense forgiveness without addressing the victim.

That's what Christianity does, presumes that through his death, Jesus can dispense forgiveness. But, Jesus clearly says, many times, that you will not be forgiven if you don't yourself forgive.

This is an impossible requirement for some, and it seems that personal flaw, that so many of us wrestle with, is in fact, the "unforgivable sin!"

I'm not saying that there isn't virtue in forgiving, but it comes in its own time, if ever, and can't be forced.

Sure, you can forgive someone who harmed someone else. But to what end? Personal self gratification? Is your forgiveness of a stranger, like the thief on the cross, going to redeem the sinner? No. Only Jesus can do that, according to Christianity..

Why? Because he was innocent? Plenty of innocents have been put to death. How is it ethical or moral to allow another, especially someone who's innocent, to take the punishment for your crimes, as Jesus supposedly does.





When the adulterer was brought before him, was the husband assessed by Jesus to see that closure was found?


Are you talking about the "cast the first stone" story? That story had nothing to do with forgiveness, it was about hypocrisy.



The thief on the cross, was his "victim" assessed of closure before his forgiveness was granted?


Nope, the bible hardly gives 2 ducks about dealing with victimization. This story assumes that Jesus had the divine right to forgive sin, and decide who goes to heaven. Sorry, I don't buy that.



I can forgive a murderer without the "victim" forgiving the murderer, but without the "victim" doing the forgiving, healing and closure will not come nor will it come through vengeance. Thus, it may appear that my forgiveness is without merit. However, my forgiveness is forgiveness for the ignorance of mankind. For if they knew as Jesus knew, that what we do to each other we do unto the creator who made us, then they would not do as they do, but rather live in mutual love and affection of the highest degree.


Puh leeeese!

How very airy fairy, lovey dovey and high minded. Except that this is the real world, where nuclear destruction, biological warfare, the looting of planet earth and the environment, the sacking of our children's future, crimes against indigenous people, animal cruelty, and on and on. You think god is in heaven saying, "Oh those silly humans, I'll forgive them because the don't know what they're doing. After all, I sent my son, and they murdered him so that it would all be forgiven."?

Crazy think!



So, forgive all that all may know the divinity within you as a reflection of themselves whom they have forgotten.



How is my "forgiving all" going to show strangers my inner divinity?



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by windword
Of course, the blood sacrifice of Jesus is relevant in this discussion. The OP asks how can god or Jesus dispense forgiveness without addressing the victim.


I addressed this in my post. Jesus can do it the same way I can do it.


Originally posted by windword
That's what Christianity does, presumes that through his death, Jesus can dispense forgiveness. But, Jesus clearly says, many times, that you will not be forgiven if you don't yourself forgive.


I am not speaking for Christianity. I am speaking as a Man. Yes, you are not forgiven unless you yourself also forgive. Forgiveness is more than simply "I am sorry". Forgiveness is an acknowledgement of ones own divinity.

We all know the person who cries out "Don't judge me!" or "Have mercy on me!" while to those that have caused them offense they are terrible and merciless in their judgement. Are they forgiven? No! They are given their reward with the rest of the hypocrites.


Originally posted by windword
This is an impossible requirement for some, and it seems that personal flaw, that so many of us wrestle with, is in fact, the "unforgivable sin!"

I'm not saying that there isn't virtue in forgiving, but it comes in its own time, if ever, and can't be forced.


Here is where healing is needed and there are so few healers hearing the call.


Originally posted by windword
Sure, you can forgive someone who harmed someone else. But to what end? Personal self gratification? Is your forgiveness of a stranger, like the thief on the cross, going to redeem the sinner? No. Only Jesus can do that, according to Christianity..


Again, forgiveness is more than "I am sorry". If a man comes to me and confesses to a murder, and asks for forgiveness with murder still in his heart, then he is not repentant and my forgiveness is to no avail.

Now if a man comes to me and confesses to a murder and is repentant and remorseful, then my forgiveness aides in his healing.

The "victims" family may not forgive, but at least one person will have found the man redeemable.




Originally posted by windword
Why? Because he was innocent? Plenty of innocents have been put to death. How is it ethical or moral to allow another, especially someone who's innocent, to take the punishment for your crimes, as Jesus supposedly does.


Jesus was put to death for teaching a doctrine that would undermine the power structure of the church and state and and as a fulfillment of prophecy. Asking how it is ethical that he be put to death is akin to asking why someone else has to die for your freedom today.



Originally posted by windword
Are you talking about the "cast the first stone" story? That story had nothing to do with forgiveness, it was about hypocrisy.


Where are your accusers?


Originally posted by windword
Nope, the bible hardly gives 2 ducks about dealing with victimization. This story assumes that Jesus had the divine right to forgive sin, and decide who goes to heaven. Sorry, I don't buy that.


Actually, Jesus was teaching that YOU had the divine right to forgive. Before this teaching, all matters were settled by the Priestclass. If you had a disagreement with a neighbor, it was sin. Go pay the priest for a dove to be sacrificed and God will forgive you. Jesus said NO, YOU forgive each other.


Originally posted by windword
Puh leeeese!

How very airy fairy, lovey dovey and high minded. Except that this is the real world, where nuclear destruction, biological warfare, the looting of planet earth and the environment, the sacking of our children's future, crimes against indigenous people, animal cruelty, and on and on. You think god is in heaven saying, "Oh those silly humans, I'll forgive them because the don't know what they're doing. After all, I sent my son, and they murdered him so that it would all be forgiven."?


No, I think God is walking this earth right now and setting things straight to those who will close their mouths and open their ears.


Originally posted by windword
How is my "forgiving all" going to show strangers my inner divinity?


It is not about you showing others your inner divinity. It is about showing them theirs.



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 01:24 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Retribution is only one component of what makes up our human conception of justice. You seem assume that a victim needs to witness their attacker being punished in order to have closure. There's a lot wrong with that. At the very least its inconsistent with the overall Christian view; turn the other cheek, forgiveness, eschewing revenge, favoring reconciliation, finding condolence in God, seeking your reward in the afterlife as opposed to making life as comfortable and satisfying as possible here on earth.Taking one of a religious leader's teachings out of context and analyzing it based on modern day sentencing standards is just bizarre in my opinion.



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 01:38 AM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Genesis 3 16;and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This does not agree with your "Christ did not deny equality to women,"

Regards
DL


How did Christ come to rule over us? He came as a servant. One who laid his life down for us.

How are husbands commanded to treat their wives? The way Christ treated the Church, as a servant. Willing to give our life for our wifes.

Husbands are instructed to treat their wives as they treat themselves. Scripture says that when a man and woman come together the two become one. How is it that two that became one are not equal? The two become one, they are equal because they are now one and no longer two.

If I serve my wife as a loving, kind, generous husband. If I treat her they way I wish to be treated, or better yet the way she wishes to be treated; Is it too much for me to ask she respect me as the leader of our house?

The problem lies with man first than with woman. If the man is not serving his wife the way Christ served the church he should not expect the respect of a leader.



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 01:56 AM
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reply to post by AManYouALL
 


I must say that I find your arguments tedious, dense, superficial and ungrounded in the reality of life on planet earth.

I can't figure out if your just arguing the benefits of forgiveness, or justifying the Christian Jesus.

Saying "I'm sorry" means nothing without remorse. I find it irritating when people try to subdue me with a quick, meaningless "sorry," as if I am now obliged to forgive them. And then they repeat the same offense over and over. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the rude cashier, or the guy that cut me off in traffic.

I'm not going to forgive the corrupt politicians, bomb makers, war mongers for their participation in the killing of innocent people in the name of profit. It's not my place and I like a certain amount of righteous indignation with my cold revenge dishes.

If people know that I'm not so much the forgiving type, I tend to get victimized a little less.

I've lived for quite some time now, and I think I know the difference between tolerance and this holy "Christ like" forgiving, turn the other cheek. I really don't trust it. These people are the first ones to tell you that you're really going to hell, but not because they didn't try to save you.



posted on May, 12 2012 @ 02:14 AM
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Originally posted by windword
I must say that I find your arguments tedious, dense, superficial and ungrounded in the reality of life on planet earth.


Yet here you are still arguing against them.


Originally posted by windword
I can't figure out if your just arguing the benefits of forgiveness, or justifying the Christian Jesus.


Jesus does not need my justification and the benefits of forgiveness are well documented in medical journals and modern psychology. If you do not want those benefits, then don't seek them out. I am not here to convert you.


Originally posted by windword
I'm not going to forgive the corrupt politicians, bomb makers, war mongers for their participation in the killing of innocent people in the name of profit. It's not my place and I like a certain amount of righteous indignation with my cold revenge dishes.


I will not forgive such people either. I will give ample opportunity for them to repent. I will not live under their sin by being part of their corrupt system. I will reject their governments, their laws, their system while teaching others to do the same. I will stand in open defiance to the rulers of this world. Thus, I live independently on only what I need as it is provided to me by the grace of God.

Are you doing the same? Or are you one who curses the world out of one side of his mouth while delighting in the security and prosperity it brings to you with the other?


Originally posted by windword
If people know that I'm not so much the forgiving type, I tend to get victimized a little less.


So fear hardens your heart then. No worries, the world has you in great company.


Originally posted by windword
I've lived for quite some time now, and I think I know the difference between tolerance and this holy "Christ like" forgiving, turn the other cheek. I really don't trust it. These people are the first ones to tell you that you're really going to hell, but not because they didn't try to save you.


You are already in hell. I am showing you the path to heaven. It is right here before your eyes.



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