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Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

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posted on May, 10 2012 @ 09:19 AM
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Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL




posted on May, 10 2012 @ 09:45 AM
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The only victim to your sin, is YOU. Someone as "intelligent" as you, should've figured that out by now. And if you haven't, don't worry about it ... GOD won't punish the cat, for killing the mouse.



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 10:14 AM
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You misunderstand the Christian teaching of forgiveness.

Gods forgiveness isn't for sins against fellow man...it's for sins against God himself. And he's not a victim of anything in the sense that we think of a victim. The only reason humans have the rights we do is because they were given to us by our creator. So HE declared what was a sin against man, and because of that a sin against man is ultimately a sin against God. He is the ultimate Judge of what is right or wrong, and can choose mercy or punishment.

Also...none of us are innocent. Jesus' death was to reconcile us to communion with the Creator of our very breaths. Jesus is the innocent one who CHOSE to be the victim for everyone's sins against one another, ourselves, and God. Even those times you yourself have hurt someone. We're all imperfect beings, and God still chose to be the sacrifice on our behalf. It's his grace that's kept us alive after the first time we ever sinned. We only have worth because Jesus/God bestowed it upon us.

What makes you think mans law is greater and more perfect than Gods law? (honest question)


edit on 10-5-2012 by WordsAreAvenues because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-5-2012 by WordsAreAvenues because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL


The only way that a victim can find closure is to forgive. It really matters not to the victim whether or not God forgives.

The only way for the sinner to be forgiven is to repent. To repent means to turn away from sin. This means whatever sin they committed they have turned away from so that they will not commit at minimum that particular sin.

True forgiveness is not known by the believer until they are fully repentant. Meaning they are fully committed to turning away from all sin. One must truly desire to turn away from all sin and believe that God has provided a way for the believer to live a life free from committing willful sin.

Anyone who has truly repented and believed God simply cannot continue to willfully sin. For if they get caught up in sin again there will be no way out.

So you see you must deserve forgiveness to truly be shown God's mercy. This does not mean he does not have mercy on all men, what it means is that not all men will know God's mercy.

Because the victim must forgive to find closure and the sinner must repent to find mercy I believe that God's plan becomes fully justified not just because it is God's plan but because his plan falls in line with human logic and reason as well.

I think seeing a truly repentant sinner may actually help the victim forgive so that God's mercy is shown to the victim through the sinner.



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by bjarneorn

The only victim to your sin, is YOU. Someone as "intelligent" as you, should've figured that out by now. And if you haven't, don't worry about it ... GOD won't punish the cat, for killing the mouse.


I see. So a raped girl is not a victim.

They will be pleased to hear that Christian.

Someone as "intelligent" as you, should not make such stupid statements.
Unless you are a Muslin just out to discredit Christianity.

Regards
DL



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by WordsAreAvenues
You misunderstand the Christian teaching of forgiveness.

Gods forgiveness isn't for sins against fellow man...it's for sins against God himself. And he's not a victim of anything in the sense that we think of a victim. The only reason humans have the rights we do is because they were given to us by our creator. So HE declared what was a sin against man, and because of that a sin against man is ultimately a sin against God. He is the ultimate Judge of what is right or wrong, and can choose mercy or punishment.

Also...none of us are innocent. Jesus' death was to reconcile us to communion with the Creator of our very breaths. Jesus is the innocent one who CHOSE to be the victim for everyone's sins against one another, ourselves, and God. Even those times you yourself have hurt someone. We're all imperfect beings, and God still chose to be the sacrifice on our behalf. It's his grace that's kept us alive after the first time we ever sinned. We only have worth because Jesus/God bestowed it upon us.

What makes you think mans law is greater and more perfect than Gods law? (honest question)


edit on 10-5-2012 by WordsAreAvenues because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-5-2012 by WordsAreAvenues because: (no reason given)


It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
[

I think seeing a truly repentant sinner may actually help the victim forgive so that God's mercy is shown to the victim through the sinner.


The O P has nothing to do with repenting.

It has to do with justice for the victim and his or her right to forgive or not.

Regards
DL



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 10:53 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Christ did not deny equality to women, therefore anyone who denies equality to women is not following Christ. Anyone who does not follow Christ is not a Christian.

If I call myself a vegan but eat meat everyday am I a vegan?

So why if I call myself a Christian but don't follow Christ am I still considered a Christian?



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by sacgamer25
[

I think seeing a truly repentant sinner may actually help the victim forgive so that God's mercy is shown to the victim through the sinner.


The O P has nothing to do with repenting.

It has to do with justice for the victim and his or her right to forgive or not.

Regards
DL


God's mercy does not take away the victims right to forgive or not. And most likely the only way the victim will know that the sinner is sorry is if they truly repent.

Doesn't the bible say that God has mercy on those who have mercy? If a sinner does not repent they have not shown mercy so they will not be shown God's mercy.



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 11:46 AM
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The answer to your question can be found by reading Matthew 25:34-45.


For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’


All sins and crimes are sins against God. Anything you do to other people, good or bad, is an action done to God. There is much more to being made in the image of God than our appearance. Also the point of view that we're actually sinning against the actual person is skewed. The physical body you posses isn't the real you. It is merely your avatar in this dimension.

If I bought my daughter a new car (her avatar on the highway) and you beat the car with a baseball bat, you're not hurting my daughter. She is not the car. She merely uses the car to move around but you will answer to me for the disrespect and damage you caused to the gift I gave her. Does that make sense?
edit on 5/10/2012 by dbates because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 11:52 AM
link   

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL


Karma is karma. Even if you are forgiven, you have to fix what you have done as well as you can. The forgiving of sin is a way to make the sinner stop thinking about the sin he/she has done and concentrate on going forward and doing better. If the person really have learned the lesson then karma serve no point since it does not teach anything. I can hate people that have done me wrong but if they are not the same people then what is the point? So I do not care that people get judged if they have learned. But if they have not then they deserve the full force of karma however bad it is.

Jesus forgiving of sin can also be seen as a forgiving of the old crap written in the bible that is clearly wrong (my viewpoint and you can have your own).



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by WordsAreAvenues
You misunderstand the Christian teaching of forgiveness.

Gods forgiveness isn't for sins against fellow man...it's for sins against God himself. And he's not a victim of anything in the sense that we think of a victim. The only reason humans have the rights we do is because they were given to us by our creator. So HE declared what was a sin against man, and because of that a sin against man is ultimately a sin against God. He is the ultimate Judge of what is right or wrong, and can choose mercy or punishment.

Also...none of us are innocent. Jesus' death was to reconcile us to communion with the Creator of our very breaths. Jesus is the innocent one who CHOSE to be the victim for everyone's sins against one another, ourselves, and God. Even those times you yourself have hurt someone. We're all imperfect beings, and God still chose to be the sacrifice on our behalf. It's his grace that's kept us alive after the first time we ever sinned. We only have worth because Jesus/God bestowed it upon us.

What makes you think mans law is greater and more perfect than Gods law? (honest question)


edit on 10-5-2012 by WordsAreAvenues because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-5-2012 by WordsAreAvenues because: (no reason given)


Mans laws are so corrupted by greed sometimes it is halarious. Leaving judgement to god or to when you have all the facts are a good thing. When I have all facts and wisedom and is fully connected to gods thinking, after this life then my souls opinion on other peoples karma will probably not be different than gods.



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 01:43 PM
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If you talk about Jesus this way the "logically" you accept the afterlife promised. Given the proof of an afterlife, there would be no victims in the eyes of God. Once in the afterlife everything is perfect and all that happened in the physical would has no bearing or affect. If you don't make it to the "good" afterlife (heaven), then you could view what happened to you (when you were considered the victim) as retribution or punishment for when you made some one else the victim.



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 02:26 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 




I see. So a raped girl is not a victim.

They will be pleased to hear that Christian.


Yep, and it only gets worse! The rape victim must now "forgive" her rapist, or, as Jesus clearly says many times, forgive or you will not be forgiven youself, by god the father.

So somehow, she has to find something unaquirable in order to gain salvation. Incredible!



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 04:12 PM
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reply to post by dbates
 
what version are you quoting from ???
this is KJV
Mat 25:35
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Mat 25:37
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Greatest I am
 




I see. So a raped girl is not a victim.

They will be pleased to hear that Christian.


Yep, and it only gets worse! The rape victim must now "forgive" her rapist, or, as Jesus clearly says many times, forgive or you will not be forgiven youself, by god the father.

So somehow, she has to find something unaquirable in order to gain salvation. Incredible!


Yeshua never said it would be easy. You keep forgetting that book wasn't written for nonbelievers. Who was he addressing when he spoke it? Right, his believers.

If a woman can forgive the man who killed her child for drunk driving, and then advocate for the court to show him mercy, that is proof it is doable, but she's a believer in Yeshua ha'Meshiach so she can do what you perhaps cannot.

articles.mcall.com...

When the rubber meets the road, it's about forgiveness. Forgive and you shall have forgiveness. Be merciful and you shall have mercy. Hating and holding grudges does not undo what was done, but it will poison your soul until it consumes you.



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Forgiveness can't be forced.
Neither can a belief.



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 09:25 AM
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Originally posted by the2ofusr1
what version are you quoting from ???


I believe that this was the New International Version. Just click on the supplied link in the post and it takes you right to the verse in question. You can easily switch between versions there if you wanted to compare the differences.



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 12:04 PM
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So what you're saying is God shouldn't forgive people.

That pretty much ruins the tenets of Christianity.

Christianity is about saving souls. And at least as far as I know, the only way to save a persons' soul is through God's forgiveness.

Another thing you're saying is once a crime has been committed, that person should never be forgiven for that crime (or sin) under any circumstance and never be given a second, or even a third chance, to become a better person.

If Christianity operated on your premise, then no one would be saved, even for the most minor infractions, and absolutely no one would go to heaven.

So then what would be the entire point of Christianity?



posted on May, 11 2012 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by EvilSadamClone
 


No, god shouldn't be in the forgiving people business. God put the laws of "cause and effect" and maybe karma, into action. God is a mathematical entity, not an emotional wuss.

God isn't some guy in the sky, watching and judging and saying "Oh no she didn't!" And then observing "Oh, she's sorry, OK!" There is no "death bed" salvation.

Live your life with integrity and purpose, cuz, we don't know what's on the other side, and all we really have is now. Everything else is human wishful thinking, not divine salvation through the death and blood sacrifice of some preacher 2000 years ago.



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