Was the government a co-conspirator?

Originally posted by The X
The best reason for the saudis being redacted from the reports is because......they were not involved.
Aspects of the american government and israeli governments allowed and orchestrated 9/11.
It really is that simple.

The Saudis *were* involved. If for no other purpose than as a smokescreen. If Saudi nationals were actually involved in the attack, they most likely did not know who they were really working for.

The main perps were BushCo, the Department of Defence and other federal players. Nobody else had the resources and national "reach" to pull this off and maintain the coverup so long. I say the coverup has been "successful" because none of the real perps has been prosecuted. Yet.

Issues to consider:

1) Too many simultaneous wargame simulations for chance.
2) The immediate confiscation of videos around Washington.
3) The refusal of the Pentagon to release their video of the attack,
4) Rumsfield's press conference on 9/10/2001 detailing 2.3 trillion missing from the pentagon.
5) What department was hit at the pentagon? Can you say "accounting"?
6) Vetted experts say WTC7 was leveled with explosives.
7) Flows of liquid metal from at least one of the twin towers.
8) molten metal in the basement debris months later
9) Chemical signatures of thermate compounds in the WTC dust


There's more. Many more facts to this puzzle.

reply to post by homervb


Then if its all a massive cover up why would the commission be so open about chasing a phantom aircraft or the inaccuracies in what NORAD were telling them. There was mass confusion at NORAD, NEADs and the FAA that day, its not evidence of a conspiracy.

reply to post by homervb


Then if its all a massive cover up why would the commission be so open about chasing a phantom aircraft or the inaccuracies in what NORAD were telling them. There was mass confusion at NORAD, NEADs and the FAA that day, its not evidence of a conspiracy.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by homervb

 

Then if its all a massive cover up why would the commission be so open about chasing a phantom aircraft or the inaccuracies in what NORAD were telling them. There was mass confusion at NORAD, NEADs and the FAA that day, its not evidence of a conspiracy.

First, thank you for confirming there was confusion. That debate between us is over. Now please read before you debate. This is what I said in the first page of this thread:

I don't know if I'd be the 1st truther to say this, but I really don't believe the US government wired the WTC buildings for demolition. Who the hell would they hire to wire it and expect them not to talk to anyone? Higher officials in the government may have their own political agenda, but people below them are every day people with a conscious. And I know that the FAA, NORAD, and the military had absolutely no role in this, they were panicked to no end.

I don't think it was all a big cover up. I've said that from the start. You were just so quick to stamp "Truther" on my forehead and jump to the "all of it was an inside job" perspective.

reply to post by homervb


Fair enough but I was quite clear as well that I believed there to be confusion. Glad we agree.

Originally posted by homervb

 

What do we think of Sibel Edmonds? She's been tagged as the "Most Gagged Person in US History" being forced to keep her mouth shut because of threats to national security

If you ask me, this "most gagged person in US history" bit is just fake marketing blitz cooked up by those damned fool conspiracy websites to artificialy sow paranoia and persecution complexes. For someone who's the "most gagged person in US history" we all seem to know a heck of a lot about her.

How many "most gagged people in US history" have all these videotaped interviews of them, and if she's so gagged then how is it we know all about how the FBI unit she worked for was so bumbling that her supervisor ordered her to do less translation work so that he could request a larger budget. Plus, we also found out from the "most gagged person in US history" about how we invariably wound up employing Bin Laden because of so many proxy agents working for proxy agents being hired by proxy agents- to get something done in Asia the CIA would go to Turkey, who behind the scenes would go to Pakistan, who behind the scenes would go to the Taliban, who behind the scenes would go to al Qaida. This "most gagged person in history" even has a Wikipedia entry documenting her life-

Wikipedia entry of the most gagged person in US history

In comparison, how many video interviews can you find and post of the "much lesser gagged" members of Seal Team Six? The problem I'm having isn't whether the things she's saying is credible, because I believe they're true and I don't see any reason why she'd be making these things up. The problem I'm having is from all those crackpots and con artists like Alex Jones and Dylan Avery deliberately misrepresenting what she's saying for their own benefit, so we don't know how much is really coming from her vs how much is their own dishonest "most gagged person in US history" embellishment.

claiming that anyone could cover up such a monstrously huge and complex conspiracy is preposterous

I respectfully disagree. If you look at the small, behind-the-scenes ops of FBI/CIA etc. setting up stings on wannabe terrorists by offering to help them with materials, money and so forth, to me, it would not be that much of a stretch to imagine small, deep black ops helping some middle eastern radicals to pull this off. A LIHOP/MIHOP hybrid if you will. Mmmm covert ops - deliciously evil.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by homervb

 

What do we think of Sibel Edmonds? She's been tagged as the "Most Gagged Person in US History" being forced to keep her mouth shut because of threats to national security

If you ask me, this "most gagged person in US history" bit is just fake marketing blitz cooked up by those damned fool conspiracy websites to artificialy sow paranoia and persecution complexes. For someone who's the "most gagged person in US history" we all seem to know a heck of a lot about her.

How many "most gagged people in US history" have all these videotaped interviews of them, and if she's so gagged then how is it we know all about how the FBI unit she worked for was so bumbling that her supervisor ordered her to do less translation work so that he could request a larger budget. Plus, we also found out from the "most gagged person in US history" about how we invariably wound up employing Bin Laden because of so many proxy agents working for proxy agents being hired by proxy agents- to get something done in Asia the CIA would go to Turkey, who behind the scenes would go to Pakistan, who behind the scenes would go to the Taliban, who behind the scenes would go to al Qaida. This "most gagged person in history" even has a Wikipedia entry documenting her life-

Wikipedia entry of the most gagged person in US history

In comparison, how many video interviews can you find and post of the "much lesser gagged" members of Seal Team Six? The problem I'm having isn't whether the things she's saying is credible, because I believe they're true and I don't see any reason why she'd be making these things up. The problem I'm having is from all those crackpots and con artists like Alex Jones and Dylan Avery deliberately misrepresenting what she's saying for their own benefit, so we don't know how much is really coming from her vs how much is their own dishonest "most gagged person in US history" embellishment.

edit on 11-5-2012 by GoodOlDave because: (no reason given)

I agree, for the most gagged person in US history she does have a lot of coverage. But at the same time her points indict the highest levels of Congress on corruption charges including involvement in 9/11. I'm not sure what to think of her just yet.

Originally posted by explorer14

claiming that anyone could cover up such a monstrously huge and complex conspiracy is preposterous

I respectfully disagree. If you look at the small, behind-the-scenes ops of FBI/CIA etc. setting up stings on wannabe terrorists by offering to help them with materials, money and so forth, to me, it would not be that much of a stretch to imagine small, deep black ops helping some middle eastern radicals to pull this off. A LIHOP/MIHOP hybrid if you will. Mmmm covert ops - deliciously evil.

How does one even remotely relate to the other? The former is when they're trying to nab a criminal before he goes off and kills innocent people, and everyone associated with such an operation knows they need to keep secret if they want to nab the criminal and avoid having innocent people killed. The latter is a scenario where you're saying everyone associated with the operation is not only willing to help someone launch a terrorist attack against innocent American civilians, they need to be willing to keep quiet about it. It should say something to you that the only ones who actually buy into that scenario are the conspiracy theorists.

I can't imagine what kind of naive idiot is even going to think to ask a group of extremely lethal and uber-patriotic Seal Team Six'ers to conspire to help betray their gov't and help slaughter their own families and even their brother warriors. The only reason why people even wind up in units like that to begin with is the flag.

Yes, in fact US officials and another country, and some other corporations and people were and are the Masterminds, who perpetuated the whole event and day, organized crime, all the way to George Bush and cronies, obviously and those who do not accept this as truth and think that buildings fall like that, are just stupid or in denial.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by homervb

 

Fair enough but I was quite clear as well that I believed there to be confusion. Glad we agree.

Yea., let me read you a story about my pet goat and see if that helps understand it better!



Confusion is no excuse to recognise the truth of the matter, that it was and is, an inside job and those who committed it, were Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield, to name a few, not all of them, as there are more, who were involved, however Bush should get death penalty for his role and so should the others.

Originally posted by homervb
I agree, for the most gagged person in US history she does have a lot of coverage. But at the same time her points indict the highest levels of Congress on corruption charges including involvement in 9/11. I'm not sure what to think of her just yet.

Well, in my viewpoint, I dismiss these conspiracy claims for the same reason Noam Chomsky dismisses them- the gov't is so utterly incompetent that they couldn't pull such a conspiracy off even if they wanted to do it. We saw ourselves that the gov't couldn't even hand out bottles of water to hurricane victims in New Orleans without slipping on banana peels. This is because in the real world, after person A gave an order and it went through persons B, C, and D, by the time the order got to person E it would be a completely different order...and that's presuming person E isn't a screw-up himself. Heck, the secret agent driving the truck carrying the explosives would probably have been arrested on the way to the WTC for soliciting a prostitute (cough cough Secret Service cough).

SO, when Edmonds said her own FBI agent told her to stop translating important intelligence papers and goof off so that he can request a larger budget and hire more people, this isn't really disproving the point. Corrupt and self serving? I can agree that it is...which is why I can accept the things she's saying is true...but that's still a long ways off from being a "willing co-conspirator" as the OP is implying.

This is sad. People actually on here trying to convince others that we had to protect the saudi king and princes.. Thus why we covered it up.. Guys.. Wrong = wrong. Theres no sugar coating it. A cover up is a cover up. And complicit, is allowing or covering up and = wrong. End of discussion. The next conversation is, they gets these guys in court, and put it on record. The government covering up anything, or protecting anyone, besides protecting and serving its citizens, after 9/11, should be considered a breach in contract and the government is no longer fit to have authority. They failed, they covered, they hid, they lied.. Thats war against its citizens. So either we bring em to court, or.. .. .. 1776 = 2012

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


OK, I understand that you read the books and watched the documentaries and took modules on terrorism studies at university level.

Let me ask you again... what exactly led you to your conclusion?

But first I will explain to you what led me to my conclusion.

Like most people I also believed what we were told for a long time. On 9/11 I was in Brooklyn watching this nightmare from across the east river. And just like everybody else I was angry, scared and confused. We were told that a group of terrorists attacked us and killed thousands of civilians who went to work on Tuesday morning. It seemed pretty simple, they hate us so they attacked us. The beautiful NYC skyline changed for ever, the Twin Tower collapsed due to the huge airliners with a lot of jet fuel flying into them. I saw and talked to people who were looking for their friends and family.

Years later I met I guy at work who told me that a lot of people don’t believe this story, I didn’t even know that at the time and it made me Google it. So that’s how I began researching.

In my research I read books, watched documentaries, watched the news reports, and studied the history of our government. None of it made sense. And here’s why...

They told us who the hijackers were but some of them turned out to be alive after 9/11. Then they told us that it was just people with the same names and that its only a coincidence. Then I found out that one of the people realized that he is being blamed by looking at the photos of the terrorists not the names. But the FBI never changed the photos of the hijackers.

We were told that Bin Laden was the mastermind of the attacks, but the FBI did not list 9/11 as one of the crimes he was on the most wanted list for.

We were told that nobody could of even imagine that commercial jets would be used as weapons. But that turned out to be false because Jets flying into buildings was one of the scenarios in the Pentagon drills prior to 9/11. Also actually flying into the White House happened in 1994.

We were told that it was also a surprise that they attacked within the US. But in reality multiple warnings of planned attacks inside the US were given to the Bush Administration prior to 9/11.

Two of the hijackers even lived with an FBI informant in San Diego. Flight school reported that suspicious people were taking flight lessons but didn’t care about learning how to land the airplane. And Able Danger was also prior to 9/11.

The White House worked very hard against investigating what happened, but thanks to the Jersey girls 9/11 Commission was formed. And it concluded that because everybody failed nobody is held accountable for the their failures. The head of the Commission turned out to be Bush White House insider, and after the Commission was closed he started working for the White House. Instead of being fired for their negligence at least one of them got a promotion in the Bush second term.

The First Responders were told that the air was safe at Ground Zero, but it turned out that it wasn’t and they knew it at the time. As the result many are dead or very sick.

Witnesses reported explosions all over the place, WTC was attacked with a bomb in 1993. but according to the Government nobody reported explosions even though Firefighters say in plain English there were secondary explosions before the collapse on video. But NIST didn’t look for explosives because they didn’t hear the booms in the same videos.

WTC 7 looked like it was imploded, but officially it collapsed due to damage but mostly due to fire. But in that building was the Office of Emergency Management and when it was being build we were told that within this building there is another building with its own water supply, electric and air, and its bulletproof too. It was advertised as a bunker which can withstand serious disasters. But somehow it collapsed and that “bunker” was also completely destroyed. In my opinion the bunker should have been identifiable in the debris since it was so strong. But that’s my opinion only.

Another weird fact is that the cause of all 3 buildings collapsing was already known to some on 9/11. Plus the whole Passport thing is kinda unbelievable too.

United 93 incident is also strange. Multiple debris fields. First they say that no shoot down orders were given then they say that it actually was given but the plane wasn’t shot down.

The Pentagon is another one. First they do not release video then they do release it but no plane is on that video. The freaking taxi light pole story don’t make sense either.

Bush is allowed by Secret Service to go on live TV during airborne attacks, unknown how many planes are hijacked. How were they planning to protect the Commander in Chief from an air strike? His location was not a secret to anybody.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


The Government had lied to the people about Pat Tillman, Jessica lynch, WMD's, babies in incubators in Kuwait, giving people syphilis on purpose, Iran Contra, The Gulf of Tonkin , Watergate, Monica Lewinsky, there’s probably more I just don’t remember. And that establishes the lack of credibility of the Government as far as I’m concerned.

The Government acting like paranoid lunatics with all their Patriot Acts and NDAA nonsense.
The have no problem to send a drone to kill American Citizen without Due Process, or showing that he was guilty of something, and couldn’t be captured alive.

The worlds most wanted terrorist was killed (apparently unarmed ) by one of the top special forces team. Why didn’t they capture him alive like they did Saddam Hussein?
And I was under the impression that dumping dead bodies into the ocean is illegal.

I can provide sources if you want, I just need time to dig it all up. Not right now. A lot of this are only my opinions, so if you see that I ignorant please correct me.

I cant wait to see your reply.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by homervb

 

Well if that was your initial point do you not concede that it may cast doubt over this idea that Saudi Arabia were behind the attack. Surly if the Saudi’s were behind the 9/11 attacks the American s would have loved to have launched a full scale invasion and stole all their oil. When it comes to your quote, I find it difficult to find any proof in that that the Saudi’s were funding the Hamburg Cell

Also if you are wondering how they slipped through the FAA and NORAD the answer lies in history. Remember that before 9/11 there hadn’t been a terrorist hijacking of a commercial American aircraft in 30 years or so , yet alone multiple hijackings with planes being used as missiles with in a hour of them being hijacked. NORAD were notified by the FAA but they (NORAD) only had knew of one hijacking in advance and even at that only had 9 minutes to scramble jets.

The Saudi's were complaisant, and partners with Bush and the crime family, they may have been caught off guard and extorted to some extent or convinced, that all that Bush needed to do, was point the finger at them and they would be giving up their oil, instead of Hussein, Saddam and Iraq and they would be invaded, is plausible, however they went along with it and Bush, family ties and advantageous for them to have the world place the blame on Iraq or event their family, Bin Laden, a CIA trained asset...as real clear who was in charge and giving orders for the day and afterwards, ...buildings don't fall like that, unless demolition charges were used and in this case, obviously the situation, and anything else is fantasy land talk, and if anyone thinks Bush crime family was not the culprits, then maybe you all just cannot handle the truth and are blind to reality...you give humanity a bad name and don't care if you were working for Bush or those involved or not, you still as guilty as they are, by just pretending that they did not do it., in my opinion, as stupidity only carries so much weight and ignorance is no excuse, so shills take your shilling lies and deceit and stick it where the sun don't shine...dirty corrupt killers.

Originally posted by Myendica
This is sad. People actually on here trying to convince others that we had to protect the saudi king and princes.. Thus why we covered it up.. Guys.. Wrong = wrong. Theres no sugar coating it. A cover up is a cover up. And complicit, is allowing or covering up and = wrong. End of discussion. The next conversation is, they gets these guys in court, and put it on record. The government covering up anything, or protecting anyone, besides protecting and serving its citizens, after 9/11, should be considered a breach in contract and the government is no longer fit to have authority. They failed, they covered, they hid, they lied.. Thats war against its citizens. So either we bring em to court, or.. .. .. 1776 = 2012

totally, if I ran into one of those murderers ever, it would be my duty to make sure, they pay for their acts and crimes and I am talking about all you chumps who had a part in it....those that follow orders for pay, you should pay too.

Originally posted by Myendica
This is sad. People actually on here trying to convince others that we had to protect the saudi king and princes.. Thus why we covered it up.. Guys.. Wrong = wrong. Theres no sugar coating it. A cover up is a cover up. And complicit, is allowing or covering up and = wrong. End of discussion. The next conversation is, they gets these guys in court, and put it on record. The government covering up anything, or protecting anyone, besides protecting and serving its citizens, after 9/11, should be considered a breach in contract and the government is no longer fit to have authority. They failed, they covered, they hid, they lied.. Thats war against its citizens. So either we bring em to court, or.. .. .. 1776 = 2012

I agree. This IS a reason why we need to have further investigations, if nothing else than to make sure there weren't any coverups...but when the poster immediately before yours insists on "bringing Bush to court and having him hang for 9/11" we're not talking about any real investigations. This is simply acting on the third or fourth hand information coming from dubious sources to fulfill a pre-existing agenda of abject paranoia..which I might point out was the reason that led to the the war in Iraq to begin with.

Come on now, seriously, how much "classified secret information" would a crackpot like Alex Jones ever have? Heck, the guy is so screwy that he just came out and accused the police of kidnapping children and selling them on the black market for $400,000 apiece.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

In comparison, how many video interviews can you find and post of the "much lesser gagged" members of Seal Team Six?

They're dead.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by homervb

 

Then if its all a massive cover up why would the commission be so open about chasing a phantom aircraft or the inaccuracies in what NORAD were telling them. There was mass confusion at NORAD, NEADs and the FAA that day, its not evidence of a conspiracy.

the commission was stacked and dirty and in on it, they tried to put Kissinger in charge at first then you look at the panel, all dirty dogs who knew they had to bury it and wag the dog to appease the people, they should all be locked up for their lack of investigation and coverup, if not brought up on treason charges, like the others, more crime syndicate involvement, as take a look at who all was on the commission and what roles they been in and part too..collusion and collaborators, should be shot, if we want to make the world a better place for everyone, get rid of the problems, one by one, all of those who took part in it then and now.