The Secret Behind the Promise: A Libertarian Dictatorship

Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by jjf3rd77

 

Instead of preventing things that would go against Obama's "promises" to the people, he has helped Congress to pass things that deliberate spits in the face of some of the promises. Ron Paul, much like he has done in Congress, would be a veto king with these issues.

There will be no "Libertarian Dictatorship". The two words together struggle to not be an oxymoron in and of themselves. Quite simply, there will be very little progress to start and maybe, if the American people LIKE what they see

So Obama's promises were empty, but Paul's are not even though he will have a very hard time getting anything through congress, and will effectively be a Do-Nothing President?

But that's the problem, how will Americans begin to "like" what they see. And what will they see? They will see a dictator going around and abolishing this agency and that agency, letting more corporations grow even larger than they are today, and getting rid of certain entitlement programs that we need. Effectively destroying the safety net that some people do desperately and honestly need! Corruption will be allowed to go rampant because as the libertarians say, we should be able to do anything we want, and a lot of corruption, such as drug dealing, and child pornography are on the borderline now! You think things will change if these things are legal?

Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by jjf3rd77

 

And as for your comment "forcing his vision around the world".

Ron Paul is a non-interventionist. I don't even know where this idea stems from. Reading his book "The Revolution", he states that he doesn't want anything to do with the politics of other nations around the world and he is also not fond of the UN at all.

And once again, the vision is not being "forced" on anyone. You can only open the cage doors for the prisoners. You can't force them to leave. Let them sleep in the cell the rest of their lives with the world in front of them.

soooo....if one is already fairly comfortable with their lives, they obviously were programmed or too stupid to realize their plight, so they must be a prisoner?. and if ron paul thinks he's just going to disengage from the rest of the world, he's in for a big surprise.

reply to post by gwydionblack


it's great that he stands on his principles and morals, however, he has to work with congress, they are the ones that hold the purse strings. he, like every other president, does not have a magic wand that he can wave, to solve problems

reply to post by jjf3rd77


First and foremost . We were the main deciding factor that effectively created the United Nations and there is nothing stopping any country from leaving the United Nations when they see fit. International law doesn't even exist. It is a figment of the UN's creation, a dictation that is only given power so long as the embodied countries maintain its existence. The US currently helms the UN and has for many, many years.

What you fail to understand is the progress by Presidents can be made with or without Congress. As people have already said, Constitutional executive orders will be used such as the one he would sign immediately to bring the troops home. You don't think people are going to notice this IMMEDIATELY? That Ron Paul did what the last two Presidents couldn't in 8 years in a matter of a few weeks? And the only thing Congress can Constitutionally do about it - is OFFICIALLY declare war in order to send our troops back to foreign countries, and even then, Ron Paul would be Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, but... if is folly to think that the current Congress would vote for a war in any place at this time to begin with, especially with no reason to go back.

How is that for getting something done? Already he would have completed more of his promises then Obama. I'm sure he would then be able to, if the Fed has not been abolished by the point, do an executive order to allow competing currencies which will effectively end the Fed's dictatorship over our economy. And last but not least, he can champion Congressional groups behind pushing bills such as CISPA, the NDAA, Obamacare, and the Patriot Acts, to be heard in front of the Supreme Court and be declared for the unconstitutional nature in which they represent.

Just those three simple acts and he has already done more good, using less power and executive force then Obama has in a single week. And if you think those executive orders are some form of "dictatorship" why don't you look at the list of executive orders your pal Obama or Bush passed in their tenures. It would take you a month to go through the legislation that they forced upon this country without Congressional approval.



Already, we see that the effects that Ron Paul would have, WITHOUT the help of Congress would be more helpful than Obama has in the past 4 years, and most definitely more helpful than 8 years of Bush. And it would all be done within the first two years, and that is when people see the difference and will hopefully vote for the Congress that can enact the real change that can lead to financial recovery as well as societal recovery.




In terms of your ridiculous statements about corporations being allowed to do "whatever they want", do not fool yourself because you continue to get this wrong. Ron Paul believes in INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM. He, like myself, does not believe that Corporations should be classified as individuals as they are today. Therefore, Corporations will still be subject to regulations - the same regulations that prevented them from destroying the economy from the industrial age and onward. He has never made any statement about deregulating corporations, so wherever you get your BS from, stop trying to pass it off as Ron Paul policy.

And for being a fan of libertarianism, you sure have a funny way of showing it. Drug dealing and child pornography is currently illegal. Does that stop people from doing either? No. Regulation on liberty does not stop crime - people are going to do immoral things, regardless. When it comes to committing an act, the punishment is never taken into account. People need to be taught new examples and be lead to better morals - they can not be forced to behave. THAT is a dictatorship - forcing people to live and behave by your standards because you believe it to be true. Instead, why don't you set the example and worry about your own life, not the things not hurting you.

And meanwhile, I can do the same with mine. And we can do the same with our country. Because you see, it is just as easy to mind our own business individually as it is on a international basis. You simply DON'T get involved. You don't but into business that isn't yours. You don't give your opinion where it isn't asked of. You don't try to force your ideals on others. You live in glory with your ideals and you make others see it and want to emulate that - that is how morals, ideals, and beliefs are spread. Not through forced laws, regulations, and coercion.

reply to post by jimmyx


If you don't realize you aren't truly free in this country then yes - you are stupid, and yes... you are a prisoner of your own delusions of grandeur. You have been fed a new definition of what freedom is and you believed it, either that, or you have become content with feeding of the teet of the prison guard that keeps your safe from the big bad outside world.

Either way - you aren't free, and while Ron Paul certainly won't fix that completely, he is the only one going in the right direction instead of tightening the chains.

And yes, presidents can, have, and will make progress without Congress to an extend as I have said above. It is through that initial progress and through midterm elections that people vote Congress to help the president then make bigger changes.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by jjf3rd77

 

How is that for getting something done? Already he would have completed more of his promises then Obama. I'm sure he would then be able to, if the Fed has not been abolished by the point, do an executive order to allow competing currencies which will effectively end the Fed's dictatorship over our economy. And last but not least, he can champion Congressional groups behind pushing bills such as CISPA, the NDAA, Obamacare, and the Patriot Acts, to be heard in front of the Supreme Court and be declared for the unconstitutional nature in which they represent.

You clearly do not know anything about the military, globalization, or international politics or think its all some sort of conspiracy, which is perfectly fine, this is America. Believe what you will. But, it's useless to argue with you that these things are real! And embedded into American society weather you like it or not!

Ending the fed and any other agency completely will be disastrous to the economy. It's funny, but you keep spreading Ron Paul rhetoric, and yet do not answer my questions at all! Read the OP and answer my questions about the economy. He says all these bills are unconstitutional now. If he did that as President he will just be another Do-Nothing President that says one thing and doesn't accomplish his promises, since Congress will never go for it!

In terms of your ridiculous statements about corporations being allowed to do "whatever they want", do not fool yourself because you continue to get this wrong. Ron Paul believes in INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM. He, like myself, does not believe that Corporations should be classified as individuals as they are today. Therefore, Corporations will still be subject to regulations - the same regulations that prevented them from destroying the economy from the industrial age and onward. He has never made any statement about deregulating corporations, so wherever you get your BS from, stop trying to pass it off as Ron Paul policy.

I am getting this by really and truly analyzing what would happen if Ron Paul abolishes agencies like the DOJ and the IRS. People are stupid and greedy and they yell at others who make more money than them simply because they do not know how to budget their own welfare checks!

People need to be taught new examples and be lead to better morals - they can not be forced to behave..

That sounds a lot like coercion and brainwashing to me. What are better morals? and who decides what those morals are? Ron Paul the dictator?

Originally posted by jjf3rd77

Originally posted by Damrod
No, he does have plans.

Some things will be able to be carried out by executive order and some things will only be possible if he can garner the support of the House and Senate. But he has plans.

Haha I know what his plans are believe you me. How will he effectively gain support of the congress when no one there likes him now? "Without putting them all in a room and telling them you better vote for my ideas or else." As one ATS poster told me he should do. Sure, government is corrupt, but that isn't going to change much. And Ron Paul probably has morals to not do that anyway.

Geesh dude....why so much resistance? Do you not understand that many of us that support RP are actually productive business owners but he represents our views of "how things ought to be"? I know the old dude is not perfect...none of us are...if someone was btw...well it would be the second coming and it would be over anyway.

Ron Paul supports freedom and Liberty and damn it...that is what I believe in. He believes people should be allowed to rise or fall based on their own skills and decisions...why is that so bad? If I make a bad call or decision...I don't expect a swarm of Gov agencies to come in and prop me up...why is that such a bad thing?

Ron Paul will never force anyone to do anything...that is NOT Constitutional. For the poster you referenced...he is an idiot...whoever he is...and does not understand what Libertarianism is about. I don't expect anyone to take care of me...except me. I don't expect anyone to give a big dump if I rise and succeed or sink and fail....it is all on me. All I ask for is an environment that allows that to happen....why is that so hard for people to grasp? This is true Libertarianism in action....I am responsible for me....if I fail....I have no one to blame but me....I know the rules, I know the tricks they play...I know the underhandedness of the system....therefore...failure...is completely on my shoulders....

Originally posted by Damrod


Geesh dude....why so much resistance? Do you not understand that many of us that support RP are actually productive business owners but he represents our views of "how things ought to be"? I know the old dude is not perfect...none of us are...if someone was btw...well it would be the second coming and it would be over anyway.

Ron Paul supports freedom and Liberty and damn it...that is what I believe in. He believes people should be allowed to rise or fall based on their own skills and decisions...why is that so bad? If I make a bad call or decision...I don't expect a swarm of Gov agencies to come in and prop me up...why is that such a bad thing?

Ron Paul will never force anyone to do anything...that is NOT Constitutional. For the poster you referenced...he is an idiot...whoever he is...and does not understand what Libertarianism is about. I don't expect anyone to take care of me...except me. I don't expect anyone to give a big dump if I rise and succeed or sink and fail....it is all on me. All I ask for is an environment that allows that to happen....why is that so hard for people to grasp? This is true Libertarianism in action....I am responsible for me....if I fail....I have no one to blame but me....I know the rules, I know the tricks they play...I know the underhandedness of the system....therefore...failure...is completely on my shoulders....

I don't know ask the liberals. I am not a liberal, so I do not know why they want the government to take care of themselves. But I do understand that the government is a lot better at doing somethings like certain environmental regulations and safety regulations in businesses than if left to the average citizen to handle. It's a nice world outlook, believe me. But it will just make way for corruption at all levels of society. 10X worse than what we have now!

Originally posted by jjf3rd77

Originally posted by CityFarmer
I think the way he's planning to end war and corruption implies some deep changes that he indeed doesn't talk much about. But I think also that Ron Paul voters aren't dumb and know the wind of change involves a short period of troubles. Like all the troops going back home. Who's gonna pay the soldiers if the middle east isn't plundered anymore? There will be job losses but America will restore itself over the long-term.

There has to be a change. Just look how the whole world is going on. Not just America's prosperity. Its freedom should end where other earthlings freedom begins. There's no respect right now, Villainous acts are justified with a great ROI but what about the world misery it brings forth?

True freedom and peace have their price. And I'm all for it.

EDIT: 'Dictatorship' is an exagerated misleading word if you ask me. It sounds more like you just want to darken the picture with subjective terms.
And BTW look at the corrupted governement: how is this not a hidden but proven dictatorship?
There's no charge at all against RP as he hasn't been in the white house yet...

edit on 10-5-2012 by CityFarmer because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-5-2012 by CityFarmer because: (no reason given)

I'm not charging Ron Paul with anything, I'm just asking how he realistically plans to do it all! Yes, peace and change needs to happen in the world, but what you are insisting is that a President Paul should force his vision around the entire world! Paul's policies will be even more dangerous to other cultures! You talk about implementing your idea of freedom upon everyone, even though they may not want it. That's considered dictatorship!

Not less than forcing a vision of fear and violence. If I have to pick up one side I'd rather choose the peaceful one.

Anyway I don't think he would force anybody. America could be such a great model to the world.
It doesn't mean other countries ought to buy everything the US do, think and produce.
This is what the Romneybamabushcorporatebanksters support. A can of coke in each african child's hand.

And that's what I call forcing.

Peace

Big of you to admit, not many Paul supporters would have said that about themselves

You seem to hold a grudge towards RP supporters. I'd even label it your stock stock in trade. And though you say it isn't easy to talk with them because of insults and disrespect. But as I can read you jump on any occasion to level cutting remarks at them.

Ad hominem argumentation

People want to defend their point of view fairly but they won't if they feel anger's in the air.

Peace

USA 2012 budget numbers:

total receipts =$2.62 trillion
receipts from personal income tax = $1.14 trillion


ok paul supporters, cut $1.14 trillion from the budget

be specific and don't forget the total consequences of the cuts and describe how it will pass both houses of congress

and this can't be done over a period of years. cut $1.14 trillion NEXT YEAR after Mr. Paul eliminates the income tax

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
USA 2012 budget numbers:

total receipts =$2.62 trillion
receipts from personal income tax = $1.14 trillion


ok paul supporters, cut $1.14 trillion from the budget

be specific and don't forget the total consequences of the cuts and describe how it will pass both houses of congress

and this can't be done over a period of years. cut $1.14 trillion NEXT YEAR after Mr. Paul eliminates the income tax

He proposed to send troops back home I think. How much do you think that would save?
He proposed to stop donating billions a year to Israel.

I don't know how far we would be from the trillion but it will surely help

reply to post by jjf3rd77

Ending the fed and any other agency completely will be disastrous to the economy.

Says who? Says you?

I mean it's funny, because the economy was chugging along fine BEFORE the Federal Reserve and as far as the other agencies... how you can link saving money by getting rid of other agencies being "disastrous to the economy" is a pretty damn ridiculous statement.

It's funny, but you keep spreading Ron Paul rhetoric, and yet do not answer my questions at all!

No. I did answer your questions. You just are refusing to accept my answer because apparently it isn't in line with what you want to hear.

You are not grasping the fact that these acronym organizations that have been created, the ones the Ron Paul wants to get rid of - are already outside the scope of the Constitution. They were unconstitutional when they passed, they are unconstitutional now. Why? Because of the limited powers of Congress. They were never given the powers to regulate such things in the first place.

And if you remember correctly, many of the alphabet organizations were created by executive order by presidents in the past. You do realize that the same can be done in reverse and it should serve as no hard feelings it is simply reversing an unconstitutional thing in the first place. Congress has NOTHING to do with determining the Constitutionality of laws already in place so they don't have to go along with anything.



reply to post by syrinx high priest



LOL

We don't have to. Ron Paul already did it for us.

Restore America Plan

He already has $1 trillion in cuts made so, were good there. Bring the troops home and end the war, that is another $1 trillion + spent each year as of the current figures.

That puts us in the plus. Wasn't too hard, now was it?

I never thought I would say this....we have a group of Americans that are afraid of freedom...they are...they are terrified of people being in control of their lives....they are not conservatives...they are something else....i have not decided what to cal them yet....they amaze me and yet make me very sad at the same time.

Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by jjf3rd77

 

Says who? Says you?

I mean it's funny, because the economy was chugging along fine BEFORE the Federal Reserve and as far as the other agencies... how you can link saving money by getting rid of other agencies being "disastrous to the economy" is a pretty damn ridiculous statement.


No. I did answer your questions. You just are refusing to accept my answer because apparently it isn't in line with what you want to hear

Maybe you missed the paragraphs with the questions, because you do not like to be questioned. Here it is again, now answer these questions, don't tell me how he thinks he will do it. Tell me how he can realistically implement these ideas as President... Good executive orders is subjective because they are still executive orders, going against the constitution and the very platform Ron Paul runs on! Only Ron Paul, says to end the fed. A lot of leading economists say we need to fed to maintain stability!

I keep asking questions about how Ron Paul will set up such a system that ends corruption in the government completely. And it goes unanswered. I have asked Ron Paul supporters how he realistically plans to end the fed. and all I get is silence, or more claims that he will just do it, and I should vote for him. I also doubted one of the very many points of Ron Paul's plan that I like-- The $1 trillion budget cuts-- and how he could realistically get that to pass congress. No answer.

Here is another question:

If we do return to this era of fiscal responsibility, in the 21st century how would that impact all of the corporations big and small businesses alike who currently run on the establishment model? Would that not cause another great depression?

I will not respond to you unless you give me a specific response to these questions.

reply to post by jjf3rd77


What?...are you candy or what?...."I'm afraid to face the facts"...."My candidate is a jerk-off"....


stop it dude....your dude is a douche-bag....at least RP is real....even more real than Obama...but you are too blind and hard headed to realize that Romney is just a pale skinned version of Obama aren't you....are you scared of the racist card?....I'm not...why?...because it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with right and wrong...and your criminal candidate is wrong and cannot nor will not win....suck it up and realize the fail.....RP is right....if your guy wins...we all fail...for the next seveal years....wake up idjet....get someone who is at least going to start change...your dude is going to perpetuate stupidity and make us all hurt more.....

Originally posted by Damrod
reply to post by jjf3rd77

 

What?...are you candy or what?...."I'm afraid to face the facts"...."My candidate is a jerk-off"....


stop it dude....your dude is a douche-bag....at least RP is real....even more real than Obama...but you are too blind and hard headed to realize that Romney is just a pale skinned version of Obama aren't you....are you scared of the racist card?....I'm not...why?...because it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with right and wrong...and your criminal candidate is wrong and cannot nor will not win....suck it up and realize the fail.....RP is right....if your guy wins...we all fail...for the next seveal years....wake up idjet....get someone who is at least going to start change...your dude is going to perpetuate stupidity and make us all hurt more.....

edit on 5/10/2012 by Damrod because: (no reason given)

What happened to civil discussion??? You started out well and your posts have lacked substance since then, just telling me that Romney is bad and Ron Paul is good and right is not going to stop me from questioning him! Give up your postings if you don't have anything substantial to add. Thank you!

People please stop turning Ron Paul into a golden idol to be worshipped. His platform is just follow the Constitution and has nothing to do with him as a person. Those who idolize Ron Paul and not the constitution are no better than those in love college kids for Obama in 2008.

Besides what Ron Paul talks about would NEVER pass congress. Remember that 'ol thing?

Originally posted by KnawLick
People please stop turning Ron Paul into a golden idol to be worshipped. His platform is just follow the Constitution and has nothing to do with him as a person. Those who idolize Ron Paul and not the constitution are no better than those in love college kids for Obama in 2008.

Besides what Ron Paul talks about would NEVER pass congress. Remember that 'ol thing?

But they are going to take over congress too, by putting in hundreds of people that align with Ron Paul who are in power (?) not sure who that is exactly.

In reality a President Paul might wake up some conservatives on his fiscal stuff, but liberals will never never ever follow through with his plans!

The liberals will love his foreign policy. but that's it. They will never go for the fiscal stuff. This is why, he is not going to accomplish anything. Nobody is going to align with Ron Paul in Congress. Nobody has now, nobody will if he gets into the Presidency!

reply to post by jjf3rd77


I take it you are trying to sell everyone on golden boy Romney then? Grew up with no issues and tons of money that kept rolling in.....How is he supposed to deal with any problems with America?? Oh yeah...He WON'T!!

Or maybe you are selling us on Obama......Since the "change" that all Obama supporters want is the only change that matters.....Obama out of office!!

Then you have a Dr. who has 30+ years of good standing toward voting on the bills for the benefit of the people.....One of the only candidates in the history of the U.S.A. that is honest proven, and can't be bought with any amount of money....Yet you argue that the best shot America has to get back on the right track...Why??

If you can't see the imminent collapse of the USA in the near future with these banking puppets (Obama and Romney) You are just completely blind......You are trying to get answers to a couple different things you don't agree on, and that is enough to try and talk people out of voting for the BEST candidate??

Good luck selling people on not voting for Paul because of 2 or 3 things he believes in that you don't!! I can tell you there are around 1,000 things with one of the candidates (Romney) and about 14,000,000,000 (14 trillions) things I don't like about Obama.....National debt ringing a bell to you?? Probably not, because you have your Anti-Paul or Anti-right candidate glasses still on...