Is The Bible Real?

reply to post by 1BornPatriot


Uh, maybe you should describe what the vids are about ? Do you want me to post them for you ?

Ok I see you got it .

The history channel eh ? Ok I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Just presenting a case for other possibilities.

I posted earlier and made some points that hopefully illustrated to some that, Yes, the Bible is real.

The Bible is not a history text book. It is a historical document that traces the development of Hebrew and Judaism and the birth of Christianity and the developement of Israel... and from a Judaic and Christian perspective. That's pretty much it.

The fact... and it is a fact... that many of the events can be traced and paralleled in contemporary cultures and civilizations validates that the Bible is real.

And, once again, let me say that what divides so many is the stories and miracles that are based on faith... faith in a God...Y_hv_h or Yahweh or Jehovah or Lord or what ever you want to call Him.

Historically, we can prove Israel existed... but did it exist because of God... or because of a series of events and circumstances of the times?

Again, it all comes down to faith. There is nothing I can say that will convince the non-believer. Likewise, there is nothing that someone can say that will sway the believer.

Most of the revelations that turned people to God or away from God came from within... so be it. We are all individuals and we all have rights to believe as we may. What I find ironic is that the Christian... the true Christian offers the non-believer pity and hope and love. The non-believer offers the Christian disdain and condescension and derision. As a Christian, I would just as soon take the pity.

Outside of the Bible there is little written of Jesus and many cite this as proof that He never existed. Jesus was a lowlife and hung around the outcasts of society, really not worthy of records at the time. Further, most peoples of Jesus' time were illiterate... thus the oral traditions and verbal means of passing information.

A favorite example of mine is my great grandmother. There are no written records of her... no birth certificates, no tax liens, no reciepts, no pictures. Where my great grand parents lived was way in the country... very backwards and isolated... almost like the proverbial mountain hollers. However, there are verbal accounts of what she did... not to mention children and grandchildren and great grandchildren of which I am one of many. 2000 years from now, no one will know her name... does that mean she did not exist?

Yet, we know the name of Jesus... we know He was the basis for a movement... we know that the prevailing contemporaries of His day were real... we know that the events that are depicted in His 3 1/2 year ministry dealing with the religious and political powers of Judea are all plausible... we know that the portrayal of his torture, execution, and death are based in good medical science... right down to fluid building up in the lungs and pouring out when his side and lung cavity was pierced... we know that it was standard operating procedure to finish all tasks prior to Passover... we know the chain of command was well represented and that the human folly of "passing the buck" between Pilate and Herod is well represented and believeable...

We even see the frailties and shortcomings of human nature in how the apostles ran and hid and denied Jesus... certainly not the traits of heroes nor the characteristics of people I would want to follow and that founded a movement. If all that is written was false.. a lie... than the Apostles would have been martyred in the garden or perhaps staged a daring rescue like in the movies... nope.. they ran and hid and fumbled about wondering "what do we do now?"

In fact.. and it is a fact.... and it is what is so believeable and appealing... is that the main characters of the Bible are full of weaknesses and frailties and shortcomings. They act the way real people would act... doubtful resentful, vengeful, they are not good leaders, not good speech makers, really not the kind of people to be looked up to. But through them, we see ourselves.

Maybe everyone is not as bright and so sure of themselves as you are, starchild. Perchance there are those of us that need help... that need the assurance of a better future... that when life gets us down, we need a helping hand to pick us up... and that in our lowest lonliest moment... we can know that God loves us.

And that no matter how hard it may be, we can love others, we can put ourselves last so that we can put someone else first, our hard old worldly hearts can be warmed and shaped to love and share and forgive and encourage. It is for those reasons I need God.

I am sorry that there are those that do not.

reply to post by Sahabi


My question was worded quite clearly in the OP. If the only thing you pay attention to is the thread title, it's no wonder I never get anywhere with you.

Do I think its real? Yes and no.

Yes because it was written by a person or persons that may have believed that they were touched by or embued with the voice of god in thier heads. They were convinced enough to write it so that holds some merit with me.

This leads me to believe that only the original writings if any can hold some truth of the matter.

This in turn is why I also say no. Since the Bible has been passed down it has been tweeked and re-written many times. So IMO the real truth of the book has been diluted and context is not pure.

You ever play the telephone line game when you were a kid. All the kids in the class would line up and the teacher would whisper a sentence in the 1st kids ear. By the time it got to the last kid they would say it out loud and it would be totally diferent then the original sentence.

In a sence thats how I view the Bible, its true meaning could have very well been distorted over time. Sometimes by mistake, other times out of fear, and the worst reason to make a change is if they had an agenda to do so.

Originally posted by mojo2012
All you have to do is read into the messages that The Bible is giving and you can realize it's importance. The message is God's word. You read the stories and get the message. Some of it is simplified but most is not.

No God wrote the Bible !!
Human beings wrote and threw together a massive amount of stuff that various persons attempted to keep a memory of thoughts,tales,histories and possible experiences told to them.

People are fallible in every sense of the word we misinterpret what someone says that is
standing right next to us. We can hear with our ears and see with our eyes the words
formed by a mouth and still get it wrong.
We can repeat the message someone just gave to us, relay it to another to another in a matter
of minutes and totally screw that up.

reply to post by AlreadyGone

Historically, we can prove Israel existed... but did it exist because of God... or because of a series of events and circumstances of the times?

Wait a moment there, Israel was not created until 1948.....

The British mandate over Palestine officially terminated at midnight, May 14, 1948. Earlier in the day, at 4:00 p.m., David Ben-Gurion proclaimed the creation of the State of Israel and became its first prime minister. Longtime advocate of Zionism in Britain Chaim Weizmann (1874-1952) became Israel's first president. On May 15, the United States recognized the State of Israel and the Soviet Union soon followed suit.

source

Again, it all comes down to faith.

And that is the differing quality between some of us. Faith is defined as
belief that is not based on proof. Blind faith is faith without evidence, which would be called Superstition. Many skeptics think that Christianity is for people who do not want to think. I do not fully agree with this, in my walks of life, I have spoken to many people who identified themselves as Christians, but were open minded to other religions and practices, and even to homosexuality. Contrary to what many non-believers think, the Bible does not teach total blind faith.
The Bible actually tells believers to test everything (1 Thessalonians 5:21). No other "holy book" that I know of tells its readers to actually put what it says to the test.

So, the question at hand is, why don't most Christians do this? I myself grew up under a total fundamentalist Mother who practically dragged me to Church twice a week and twice on Sunday. This was an Assemblies of God Church. In this Church, there was no test of anything. It was our way, or hellfire and damnation for all eternity. I can remember the preacher's face getting so red, I thought his heart would explode. I was also taken to "Revival Tent Meetings". Once I even saw Oral Roberts. He cried during the whole sermon. Then there came a time when I had a few questions for the preacher. I will never forget this....he patted my on the head, I was 13 at the time, and an avid reader already. "Go home, son, and read your Bible, all answers are found in there". So, taking him at his word, I did just that.
I read it all the way through. And took notes. When I again accosted the preacher, I had three pages, over 100 questions for him. There was a conference with the preacher, the deacon, and the preacher's wife. The preacher said to me, "only the Bible is truth, all other books are of the Devil". At the time, I was reading this book. I remember the look on his face when I laid that book on his knees, and asked, "so, did the Devil inspire this book"?
I was allowed to ask some of my questions, but most went unanswered, or were met with derision. Then I got to Diana of the Ephesians (Acts 19:35) Ephesian moon and nature Goddess. Reportedly she was the most worshiped deity in the Roman Empire. She was called "The Queen of Heaven. But, never a mention of Her, or the other Gods found in the KJV Old Testament. After that, I was asked to leave, and not come back.
So, when I began a research project on Religion, of course I started with Christianity, it was the most familiar to me. Those who have read me in here can easily see the things I discovered in this search. At times, I was shocked at what I discovered.

reply to post by autowrench


Thank you for that contribution. It is a reflection of all of the beating-of-the-bush responses we have all received when asking about the Christian God...

This isn't the first time I've heard such a story. In fact, I suspect that the "God works in mysterious ways" is more to convince ourselves than anyone else.

I say it again: fear. That is why there is religion. Fear for ourselves, and fear for/of the human race.

reply to post by autowrench


It really don't think it would shock me. What you posted was a lot of what my sister and I went thru. As I said before I was reading at 4 yrs old. So by 12 I too had found quite a bit in the bible that was not logical at all.
I just don't understand why people can not see this. I also researched the bible, the history and the politics of the times for years and years.

I always wondered why God waited til humans learned to read and write before He decided to pour out his inspiration on the prophets.
For me..If God wants to tell me something ..He will tell me personally. Not thru a prophet, a preacher, even an angel, or a book. An Almighty Powerful God can do anything, even talk to me personally....not second hand info.

I can't comment on the whole Bible, but I think the following passage was inspired:

Revelation 6.16.

They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

reply to post by autowrench


Historically, Israel did exist.

David was king of Israel...so was Soloman. After his death, the throne was up for grabs between Solomon's sons and a civil war ensued. After a bitter and bloody conflict, a truce was called and israel spli into the northern kingdom of Israel... made up of 10 of the 12 tribes. The southern kingdom was Judea... made up of the 2 tribes Judah and Benjamin.

Later, the northern kingdom fell under the economic and military control of Assyria, and after breaking treaties and rebelling against the growing influences of Assyria... Israel was invaded and the 10 tribes were taken into exile leaving Judah or Judea alone in the south.... circa 800-750BC.

Judah was invaded by the Babylonians, whose empire followed the Assyrians... about 550BC. Again, they were taken into exile and it is depicted in Ezekiel, Daniel, and the subsequent return to Jerusalem is portrayed in Nehemiah.

In the subject of faith... I do not mean blind and iggnorant faith. I mean faith in the things that I can't prove, and yet have passed the test of scrutiny and even answer questions that so many Christians do not want answers to. For instance, a personal antedote from today.

I had almost run out of hay and needed more for my many animals. I did not want to use money not delegated for such, nor buy hay with money I did not have. So, faith told me to put it in God's hands... do not worry... just have faith.

That was Thursday. Friday about lunch, I got a phone call. One of my customers from the farm store knew I used hay and he also knew I was budget minded...ie cheap. He told me he had a trailer load of hay... nothing wrong with it in quality, but that his baler was messing up and by the time he got the adjustments made and was producing proper bales, he also had a trailer load of irregular and too loose or too heavy bales that his snooty horse customers would not buy.

I would be doing him a favor by taking the bales off his hands and he would sale them to me for an incredibly low price. he just wanted his cost for fuel and help, and to free up his trailer so he could start shipping hay to his snooty horse customers. Plus, since it was short notice and he needed his trailer empty now...I could pay him next week.

Wow...what a bargain and a blessing. After he and his empty trailer drove off this morning, I looked at all that hay and thanked the good Lord above for His blessings. That is an illustration of faith and how God answers. On the other hand, sometimes God says No.

As to studying the Bible.. I have challenged it and read many other books of religion, mythology, archeology, history, geneology, love maps, considered alternate histories and theories, have a Strong's concordance, the Book of Enoch, and a few other things...even read the Book of Mormon.

In the end, they all pretty much reaffirmed my faith and trust in the Bible and in God. Albeit some of my views and ideas are decidedly non conventional when compared to the average church goer... for instance raphium and nephillium, giants, the migration and transformation of the 10 lost tribes of Israel into the barbarian hordes that migrated into Europe... or that Moses is actually recorded in Egyptian history as a pharoah figure, or that Ezekiel 38-39 is actually about to come to pass... we actually discussed these things and so much more in the sunday School classes I taught with the youth...some parents would challenge me saying I never heard that before... and we would whip out our Bibles and go to Ezekiel and read about the bronze colored wheel within a wheel that hovered and moved about the desert and had fire coming out the bottom that blew up the dust... cool stuff there... and because it was in the Bible... they couldn't say nothing...nuthin'... not even the preacher.

Or the idea that there were two creations of mankind... the one in the first seven days described and then one in which Adam and Eve were created. That would take care of where everybody else came from.

Anyway, I figure if I am wrong and there is no God... I have lived a good life being a good person and placed faith in things bigger than me...even if in vain. However, if I am right... there will be a lot of high minded intellectuals riding their logic and philosophies right down to Hell.

Originally posted by michaelbrux
I can't comment on the whole Bible, but I think the following passage was inspired:

Revelation 6.16.

They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

I think there is a lot in the bible that is inspired...just to me not all of it. There are times that I too. feel that I have been inspired by a sudden thought that was out of the ordinary for me. Just because the bible was closed and no more books added to it, does not mean that people aren't inspired today.
I also feel that a lot of the stories of God killing people really comes from how the writers felt about a situation at that time. A lot of war with different countries and watching your people being murdered would bring up a lot of hate for these and very biased opinions.
But the Chosen also did the same awful thing to others. It is really very horrifying reading some of the stuff in the bible of what was done to so many.
I really can't understand how anyone can read this and say ..Well. they were the enemies of the Chosen..didn't you read what they did to them? These enemies were Gods children too.
The Chosen felt they had a God that was for them and no one else. He would lead them into battle and strike their enemies without a feeling of remorse for anyone ..babies included.
The problem is people overlook this with a grain of salt and feel about the same way as the Chosen did. Their take is... You are going to Hell if you don't believe all of the Bible is God's word. Honestly..I have had that said to me.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


I also was a Sunday school teacher and went along with everything that I was suppose to teach.. Then one day I couldn't do it anymore. I felt it was hypocritical of me to be teaching something that I did not totally believe in. I quit!
For years on top of years I tried to believe every word and ignore the really gory killings and other things that to me was not logical. I tried to focus on the good scripture, but in the end I had to give it up. This caused a break up in my marriage too. My husband was embarrassed that I was not by his side in the church. That wasn't the first time I embarrassed him. I went to other churches... (gasp).. his church is the real deal..the right religion.
Today he is still in the same church and I am glad for him... But he also has never really read the Bible all the way thru and still today his God is in the pulpit.

Real? sure got one on my desk.

believable? which parts? I believe the believable parts and don't believe the unbelievable parts.

I feel a little insulted by how many people thought I was asking if the Bible was literally, physically real.

I guess half of ATS thinks I'm an absolute moron. I love you too, Internet.

reply to post by PeaNice


So basically, you only touch it when you have to read to your children before bed.

And no, I don't mean you read a book titled "To Your Children".

reply to post by randyvs


ok, now apply the stories to real life, like a code for how the was human programmed a manual if you like. it can tell you the out come certain engagements. ah~! ok, having said that. the most notable example would be when Barabus and Jesus Pilot - the masses was to decide which one was to be set free... the criminal was set free. and the innocence was killed.... the moral go along to get along - or theres the door. (and I do not think Jesus was born) - the story of Jesus's birth appears to be astological in basis.
in addition, to stories that tell you the outcome of engagements - there is hints to codes - but the codes appear incomplete in my opinion, hints to Quantum Mechanics - galactic reference information - and these metaphors are written by man, I think they were downloaded and scribed to animal skin ... before the computer that created the book was done away with - after all Adam and Eve where not the first.

reply to post by 1BornPatriot


The Bible implies that there was a world before this one...perhaps the remnant of what we are now.

Originally posted by 1BornPatriot
reply to post by randyvs

 

ok, now apply the stories to real life, like a code for how the was human programmed a manual if you like. it can tell you the out come certain engagements. ah~! ok, having said that. the most notable example would be when Barabus and Jesus Pilot - the masses was to decide which one was to be set free... the criminal was set free. and the innocence was killed.... the moral go along to get along - or theres the door. (and I do not think Jesus was born) - the story of Jesus's birth appears to be astological in basis.
in addition, to stories that tell you the outcome of engagements - there is hints to codes - but the codes appear incomplete in my opinion, hints to Quantum Mechanics - galactic reference information - and these metaphors are written by man, I think they were downloaded and scribed to animal skin ... before the computer that created the book was done away with - after all Adam and Eve where not the first.

edit on 12-5-2012 by 1BornPatriot because: fixed the post a bit

First
If Adam and Eve were not the first ? When even science, in it's studies of mitochondrial DNA, concurs that all mankind can be traced back to just one mother ? How do you know that God didn't name her Eve and her mate
Adam ?

This is quite long. I doubt you will watch it.



But it flys in the face of everything you just said.

reply to post by randyvs

god wouldn't use the names Adam and Eve. She's more creative than that.

I hope.

Originally posted by PeaNice
reply to post by randyvs

 

god wouldn't use the names Adam and Eve. She's more creative than that.

I hope.

What a rebel you are ?

Perhaps you'd like to add something about gay rights as well ?