The solution to all of our problems:

We the people of the human race do solemnly declare that all governmental
powers, authorities and dicates shall be vested in those whom choose to participate.

We declare that all human beings are equal and as such are entitled to certain basic human rights.

Human beings have the right to electricity, shelter, clothing, food, healthcare, hygiene, transportation, interpersonal communication networks, full education and personal privacy.

Anything else that a government may do is secondary to protecting and promoting these basic human rights.

We consider these facts to be self evident. As such they are not subject to change.

What have you solved?

Originally posted by Kicking2bears
We the people of the human race do solemnly declare that all governmental
powers, authorities and dicates shall be vested in those whom choose to participate.

I'll let you have that one, as it's common sense All governmental power is derived from the governed. Some just don't realize it.

We declare that all human beings are equal and as such are entitled to certain basic human rights.

Disagree on this one. We aren't all equal. We don't even start out that way. Some have money, some have intelligence, some have this or that... not equal. But, let's say we are, hypothetically equal from the day of birth to every other person at their day of birth. We begin improving ourselves from that day forward, learning, striving, trying, achieving, failing, etc... some of us give up. Some of us get lazy. And some of us never stop improving ourselves. No one is equal.

Human beings have the right to electricity, shelter, clothing, food, healthcare, hygiene, transportation, interpersonal communication networks, full education and personal privacy.

Wow. You have the right to purchase your own land, build your own powerplant (with appropriate permits), your own distribution grid, switchyards, and maintenance crews, etc... Or you can live without if you don't want the luxury. You can build a shelter... or do without. You can wear trash bags. Or do without. You can hunt and forage for your own food. HEALTHCARE?! I certainly hope I didn't miss the mark in thinking this was a post aimed at entertainment and poking fun of socialists....

Anything else that a government may do is secondary to protecting and promoting these basic human rights.

We consider these facts to be self evident. As such they are not subject to change.

It worries me that I don't see a 'j/k' or 'lol' at the end....

reply to post by Kicking2bears


And who pays for the service of all of these things? These are not rights, these are due payments as provided to those who play their part in the community. Anyone who is unproductive, is a liability...just as with sled dogs. If one is lazy, it holds the rest of them up.

There are rights to survival. Everything that is not strictly necessary for survival, is a privilege...especially if someone else provides it for you.

Anything else that a government may do is secondary to protecting and promoting these basic human rights.

We consider these facts to be self evident. As such they are not subject to change.

I consider this to be a prime example of human idiocy. The moment the oppressed are no longer oppressed, they turn around and oppress the oppressors. It's a never ending cycle.

And here, we see you turning on the government and demanding that it become a manufacturer and manager of your own personal services. Is that what you're saying?

Because that's what I'm reading in this thread.

reply to post by Starchild23


Actually I do see these as rights, just as long as you can afford them.
Anyone who has ever been in a divorce or a trial will tell you that you get the justice you can afford.

Originally posted by Kicking2bears
We declare that all human beings are equal and as such are entitled to certain basic human rights.

Human beings have the right to electricity, shelter, clothing, food, healthcare, hygiene, transportation, interpersonal communication networks, full education and personal privacy.

Except for personal privacy there, everything you have listed needs to be provided by someone else. In other words you create a slave class to be your providers for your "rights." "Personal privacy" doesn't cost anybody else anything, just lke "free speech." But electricity? Someone else has to provide it. Food? Someone else has to grow it. Healthcare? You force doctors into providing it. Here's Rand Paul's take on it:

“With regard to the idea whether or not you have a right to health care you have to realize what that implies. I am a physician. You have a right to come to my house and conscript me. It means you believe in slavery. You are going to enslave not only me but the janitor at my hospital, the person who cleans my office, the assistants, the nurses. … You are basically saying you believe in slavery,” said Paul (R-Ky.), who is an ophthalmologist.

Source

So according to your philosophy you can sit back, relax, do nothing, and have all the comforts of civilization provided to you free of charge because you're "equal" and that's your "right."

I've got a better idea. Go get a job and buy those things for yourself according to your own priorities.

Originally posted by schuyler
Except for personal privacy there, everything you have listed needs to be provided by someone else. In other words you create a slave class to be your providers for your "rights." "Personal privacy" doesn't cost anybody else anything, just lke "free speech." But electricity? Someone else has to provide it. Food? Someone else has to grow it. Healthcare? You force doctors into providing it. Here's Rand Paul's take on it:

Food: We grow enough in this country to feed everyone in the world three square meals a day.

Electricity: We produce enough in this world already at such an amount the dams, the plants, the lines, and all the things used to do such have been paid for in full already with enough profits to keep them running until they break.

Healthcare: The costs that are currently in place are too high. The basic healthcare needs can be provided without cost to the hospitals, the people, other than just time.

People have been brainwashed to believe that the current system is the only one that will work. Maybe it is time to create a completely new system that will work. Drop all the old. Let the people then make the decisions on how this will all be provided.

We are all equal. All races, all nations, all creeds, all religions are equal. None should be treated in anyway differently. It is time to get rid of national barriers. It is time to get rid of this false dichotomy that we live in.

There are enough houses currently in the U.S. to provide for every family that does not have a home. To Give them one. If we weren't living in a false capitalism we would all have that already. We would be living the life of the Jetsons.

Originally posted by Attrei
Food: We grow enough in this country to feed everyone in the world three square meals a day.

Yes, grown by individual farmers and corporate farmers alike. Who have to pay their employees, import them, pay for health benefits, research and development, cultivating land, processing, etc... are you saying that just because it's there, it should be public property?

Electricity: We produce enough in this world already at such an amount the dams, the plants, the lines, and all the things used to do such have been paid for in full already with enough profits to keep them running until they break.

But that doesn't make the service a social thing. It has to be paid for. Let them break... no one's stopping you or anyone else from developing your own power sources and providing them for free to the public.

Healthcare: The costs that are currently in place are too high. The basic healthcare needs can be provided without cost to the hospitals, the people, other than just time.

What? Basic healthcare can be provided at home. Anything that requires more can be provided at a hospital. Which requires medicine, laboratories, instrumentation, facilities, staff, staff for their staff, Porche's, Ferrari's, and a legal team of hundreds that tell us all the doctors aren't making enough. In my opinion, they aren't. These men and women are playing God every single day, and earn every penny they make. You're free to stay at home and die of a staph infection if you want... well, that might not be true...

People have been brainwashed to believe that the current system is the only one that will work. Maybe it is time to create a completely new system that will work. Drop all the old. Let the people then make the decisions on how this will all be provided.

Feel free to make such a system. We don't believe it's the only one that will work. We know it is, because we see the proof of it every day. We have eliminated 'Survival of the Fittest' using machines and chemicals. We can do this because we can afford to. I've seen other parts of this planet and there are few that compare. Except, possibly, Norway and Iceland. They have a very bright future because they have a 'different' system. Ours may not be perfect, as no system is, but it works and it works well. Be the change you want to see in the world.

We are all equal. All races, all nations, all creeds, all religions are equal. None should be treated in anyway differently. It is time to get rid of national barriers. It is time to get rid of this false dichotomy that we live in.

We aren't, see my previous post. Anyone who believes that is a blind idealist. It's a good ideal, but it's fiction.

There are enough houses currently in the U.S. to provide for every family that does not have a home. To Give them one. If we weren't living in a false capitalism we would all have that already. We would be living the life of the Jetsons.

Before you start blaming capitalism, it's the corruption of a free economic system which has us in such a state. Yes, there are enough houses for the homeless, but those people are homeless for a reason. Yes, you can lose it all, but you are never back at square one unless you have had some rediculously insane circumstances behind it. I've yet to meet a homeless person that couldn't pull themselves out of the street. I did.

"If a man is not a socialist by the time he is 20, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by the time he is 40, he has no brain." – Winston Churchill

Show me one Socialist economy that has worked as well as our system. Anywhere in History.

Hmmm.... Good points... and while I believe that all people should be treated equally and have equal standing in the eyes of the government and (hopefully) society... I can understand why an elitist might think that having more money than someone else makes you better than them. But on a basic philosophical level all people are allowed equal opportunity to participate in the system. What you do with your meager or extravagant blessings is entirely up to you.

This might work better if the definition were moved to a later place in the document... a place where the people might define it amongst themselves. (NOT the governed because this system doesn't distinguish between the governed and the governing... it only recognized those who wish to participate and those who do not.)

Something like this perhaps:

We the people of the human race do solemnly declare that all governmental
powers, authorities and dictates shall be vested in those whom choose to participate.

We declare that all human beings are equal and as such are entitled to certain basic human rights.

Anything else that a government may do is secondary to protecting and promoting these basic human rights.

We consider these facts to be self evident. As such they are not subject to change.

Originally posted by Arrowmancer

Originally posted by Attrei
Food: We grow enough in this country to feed everyone in the world three square meals a day.

Yes, grown by individual farmers and corporate farmers alike. Who have to pay their employees, import them, pay for health benefits, research and development, cultivating land, processing, etc... are you saying that just because it's there, it should be public property?

We throw away more food every day than we eat in this country. We throw enough away that we can provide for every person in this country for free. Our GOVERNMENT throws that much away. They Subsidize the farms already. All the money that is being given to them in that manner is paying for that food.

Electricity: We produce enough in this world already at such an amount the dams, the plants, the lines, and all the things used to do such have been paid for in full already with enough profits to keep them running until they break.

But that doesn't make the service a social thing. It has to be paid for. Let them break... no one's stopping you or anyone else from developing your own power sources and providing them for free to the public.

The lie that these power companies are struggling and thus must raise rates to where people can barely afford electricity is bull. I live in one of the lowest areas in the country and still pay over 150 a month for electricity on average.

Healthcare: The costs that are currently in place are too high. The basic healthcare needs can be provided without cost to the hospitals, the people, other than just time.

What? Basic healthcare can be provided at home. Anything that requires more can be provided at a hospital. Which requires medicine, laboratories, instrumentation, facilities, staff, staff for their staff, Porche's, Ferrari's, and a legal team of hundreds that tell us all the doctors aren't making enough. In my opinion, they aren't. These men and women are playing God every single day, and earn every penny they make. You're free to stay at home and die of a staph infection if you want... well, that might not be true...

Oh yes, Porshe's and Ferrari's. They need the money to buy those things. Bull. That is another lie that you are being fed. They *deserve* these things. Besides.. How much of our healthcare is already subsidized by the government?

People have been brainwashed to believe that the current system is the only one that will work. Maybe it is time to create a completely new system that will work. Drop all the old. Let the people then make the decisions on how this will all be provided.

Feel free to make such a system. We don't believe it's the only one that will work. We know it is, because we see the proof of it every day. We have eliminated 'Survival of the Fittest' using machines and chemicals. We can do this because we can afford to. I've seen other parts of this planet and there are few that compare. Except, possibly, Norway and Iceland. They have a very bright future because they have a 'different' system. Ours may not be perfect, as no system is, but it works and it works well. Be the change you want to see in the world.

We are working on it. That is why the idea's must be put out there to spread, to change the thoughts of the people. We must work in a way that will bring us all together as one. We can no longer view our world as a separate and individual place. We need to get rid of all boundaries, stop thinking of ourselves as "Americans" "British" "German" "Israeli" or whatever race or nation we subscribe to.

We are all equal. All races, all nations, all creeds, all religions are equal. None should be treated in anyway differently. It is time to get rid of national barriers. It is time to get rid of this false dichotomy that we live in.

We aren't, see my previous post. Anyone who believes that is a blind idealist. It's a good ideal, but it's fiction.

There are enough houses currently in the U.S. to provide for every family that does not have a home. To Give them one. If we weren't living in a false capitalism we would all have that already. We would be living the life of the Jetsons.

Before you start blaming capitalism, it's the corruption of a free economic system which has us in such a state. Yes, there are enough houses for the homeless, but those people are homeless for a reason. Yes, you can lose it all, but you are never back at square one unless you have had some rediculously insane circumstances behind it. I've yet to meet a homeless person that couldn't pull themselves out of the street. I did.

I am not blaming capitalism. I am blaming the *Crony* capitalism that we live in. This is not a real capitalistic society.

reply to post by Attrei


Well countered, sir.

What I'm getting is the same thing I stated... the problem is the degradation of the free market. When it's no longer to free to regulate itself, that's when the problems occur. Subsidizing farms, regulating healthcare, insurance, etc... all of these things cause the problems you are seeing. Every single one. If trade were truly free, with only minimal laws to protect the SAFETY of the individual from poisoning, exploding toiletseats, etc... then we'd be much better off. Most of the problems you've listed would cease to exist.

But the market cannot regulate itself because of the very thing you are advocating. A new world order. I agree we need to break down the boundaries, but I disagree with simply up and doing it. The ONLY way it will ever work is if all nations have a reason to unite under a single banner. Alien invasion... asteroid... global plague... something will have to unite us and currently, there is nothing.

We, as humans, can put aside our differences for set purposes. If we have a reason. Otherwise, we are territorial and murderous and power-mad. As long as there is a profit to be made, we will be divided.

The whole world is a mess.
Plenty of people seem to have this idea. Like, you need to WORK for someone else in order to be granted basic rights. That is slavery under a different name.

Take for example. A friend of mine's puppy was hit by a car the other day. She nearly died because the Vet's wouldn't do anything to help her until we'd come up with a grande. My friend, the owner, was away at the time, and had left her in other people's care (yes, it was irresponsible dog-sitting), and we couldn't even contact him to let him know what had happened. The Vet's sedated her, then said they wouldn't keep her sedated any longer if we didn't have the cash. She had a hole in her lung and three broken ribs, and needed attention immediantly. They wouldn't bulk-bill, they wouldn't take a credit card as collateral.... Fortunately someone came through for her and paid for her recovery. She is okay, if anyone was wondering.

Now. Tell me honestly. This could have been your child, your mother, your dog, your girlfriend, your cat, your best friend... and human emergency attention is hardly any better in many places... Is MONEY, an object which doesn't actually DO anything, more important then a single living thing's life!? It seems so simple to me. Of course it isn't.

The poor, the hungry, the homeless, the sick, the injured... You think all of those people put themselves in those conditions? Would you honestly rather scream "nah, get a job" and watch someone die, just because "aw, I've worked every day of my life, so I deserve life more then they do"???

One of you said homeless people are homeless for a reason. Certainly. Like, they got kicked out of home when they were a kid, they ran away from abusive parents, they suffer a drug addiction and couldn't get help, they're illigal immigrants escaping from a violent country, they suffer from a minor (or major) mental disorder which gives them a lesser hand when dealing with social situations like employment (such as Avoidant Personality Disorder), they were another innocent victim caught in the rent trap and had enough....

I mean, sh*t happens. Sure, some of those people are just as capable of slave labor as everyone else, but because they haven't done so, does that deny them the right to food, medicine, shelter, water? (these things belong to Gaia, not people, and thus are accessable by EVERYONE).

When greed and the importance on money, the middle man, a material thing, dies, the world will know compassion again.

I'm not interested in pointing fingers or laying blame. I don't care where the mess came from nor who's to blame for it. It's a mess lets get rid it.

This 'off the cuff'' list of human rights is a short basic list of things that I believe a human needs to be a functional member of society. I included the phrase "those whom wish to participate" because I also believe in the individuals right to abstain.

"Human beings have the right to electricity, shelter, clothing, food, healthcare, hygiene, transportation, interpersonal communication networks, full education and personal privacy."

Electricity & Shelter go hand in hand. I can envision a day when all our vehicles are powered by electricity. That is not to say that all the latest gizmo's and devices must be included... but I am rather comfortable with a person needing hot water, stove (method of cooking), refrigerator (keep food fresh longer) and heat in the winter. Living without summer air conditioning isn't comfortable but it hardly ever kills anyone.

Clothing, food, hygiene... all things a civil human needs. (and lets not forget that poor hygiene can lead to health issues.) Just try going to a job interview five days hungry, 3 days unbathed and without shoes.

Transportation... at least viable public transportation.

Interpersonal Communication Networks... basically internet and telephone communication. Just try getting a job nowadays without internet, Most companies don't even accept paper applications anymore. And with the new average of 150 applications/resume's per interview... that's an awful lot of on-sight applications to be filling out.

Education... sorry that's kind of self explanatory. We can't teach people common sense but we can give them enough information and data to figure it out themselves.

And obviously here on ATS we value anonymity.

I think all of these are very important. While protecting & promoteing these rights may seem cumbersome it would be in a Society's best interest that each and every Citizen have equal access to them. What they do with that opportunity is completely an individual choice.

(Please understand that Protect&Promote is NOT the same thing as Provide. All I really think I outlined was a Society where all the power, control and influence remains in the hands of the people where it belongs. How the society chooses to Protect & Promote these basic human rights is entirely up to them.)