Entropy and Life after Death

Entropy points to life after death.

When you die your body, your body decreases about 1.5 degrees every hour until you reach equilibrium with room temperature. As your temperature decreases order actually increases and your thoughts, ideas and memories become more profound.

Dr. Stephen Thaler did this with Neural Networks and this was his result:

Neural networks can be either software programs or computers designed to model an object, process or set of data. Thaler reasoned that if a neural network were an accurate representation of a biological system, he could kill it and figure out what happens in the brain as it dies.

In biological brains, the information-carrying cells, called neurons, meet at junctions, called synapses. Brain chemicals, such as adrenaline and dopamine, flow across the junctions to stimulate or soothe the cells. In the computer world, there are switches instead of cells. The switches are connected by numbers or "weights."

So after work, Thaler went home and created the epitome of a killer application - a computer program he called the Grim Reaper. The reaper dismantles neural networks by changing its connection weights. It is the biological equivalent of killing neurons. Pick off enough neurons, and the result is death.

On Christmas Eve 1989, Thaler typed the lyrics to some of his favorite Christmas carols into a neural network. Once he'd taught the network the songs, he unleashed the Grim Reaper. As the reaper slashed away connections, the network's digital life began to flash before its eyes. The program randomly spit out perfectly remembered carols as the killer application severed the first connections. But as its wounds grew deeper, and the network faded toward black, it began to hallucinate.

The network wove its remaining strands of memory together, producing what someone else might interpret as damaged memories, but what Thaler recognized as new ideas. In its death spiral, the program dreamed up new carols, each created from shards of its shattered memories.

www.mindfully.org...

The difference with a human body is your dealing with a living organism. So what happens at death? Your body temperature drops from say 98.4 degrees to 70 degrees (if this will bring you in equilibrium with room temperature).

So what happens to the 28.4 degrees? It radiates from the body in the form of heat. This heat carries the the information that makes you, you. This is why people might feel cold if they come in contact with a ghost. It's because of entropy and the ghost is you at a lower temperature. This is why ghost create cold spots. There heat is less than room temperature and therefore because of entropy, the spot where the ghost is spotted can get cold.

Here's some more about heat.

It is something which may be transferred from one body to another, according to the second law of thermodynamics.
It is a measurable quantity, and thus treated mathematically.
It cannot be treated as a substance, because it may be transformed into something that is not a substance, e.g., mechanical work.
Heat is one of the forms of energy.

en.wikipedia.org...

So ghosts are simply a form of energy that we call heat.

very interesting theory OP it does indeed , grant us some food for though and hope that their is indeed life after death for the people who have a hard time believing in such ... ty my good man S+F

How long does your brain function when you die?

Heat is the epitome of randomized energy. It doesn't carry information, except, of course, "This object is this hot"

reply to post by Bedlam


Not so. Most of the heat that escapes the body does so in the form of infrared radiation.

What are the benefits of infrared technology?

There are several advantages to detecting and studying infrared radiation. Infrared is basically heat radiation. Infrared radiation carries information about the temperature distribution of the objects studied.

coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu...

This is why Ghost Hunters us Infrared Cameras when looking for Ghost. When a person dies, the heat radiates from there body in the form of infrared radiation. This radiation carries the information about the energy distribution of the body it leaves at death. This is why Ghost are shaped like and look like the dead person the heat radiated from.

Not so. Most of the heat that escapes the body does so in the form of infrared radiation.

And it's just heat. The information therein is quite low.

What are the benefits of infrared technology?

There are several advantages to detecting and studying infrared radiation. Infrared is basically heat radiation. Infrared radiation carries information about the temperature distribution of the objects studied.

Sure. Like I said above, what it tells you, is "how hot is this object". The end.

This is why Ghost Hunters us Infrared Cameras when looking for Ghost. When a person dies, the heat radiates from there body in the form of infrared radiation. This radiation carries the information about the energy distribution of the body it leaves at death. This is why Ghost are shaped like and look like the dead person the heat radiated from.

There are no ghosts. When a person dies, they're dead. The heat energy leaves their body and travels into the environment, undetectably warming other objects, the chemical energy is feasted on by bacteria and worms. Maybe larger critters if you die unnoticed outdoors somewhere. When you look at somebody that's alive with a heat camera, you see that some parts of them are warmer than others - it's shaped like a person because it IS a person's heat signature you're looking at. However, once that heat energy radiates away from someone, live or dead, it doesn't STAY shaped like a person any more than light from a lamp stays shaped like a light bulb. It is absorbed by surrounding objects and that's it, the end.

If heat energy signatures seen by cameras stayed intact, you could record a table lamp, turn it off, and then the 'ghost of the lamp' would float around the room still shaped like a light bulb. It doesn't.

reply to post by Bedlam


Sadly, you don't understand infrared radiation or it's uses.

You first try to compare a light bulb and a lamp to a living organism. You have to know when it comes to entropy and information humans and light bulbs are like apples and oranges.

Secondly Infrared Radiation does a lot more when it comes to information.

We cannot see infrared radiation, but we can feel it as heat energy. Infrared sensors can detect heat from the body. They are used in:

security lights
burglar alarms

Infrared radiation is also used to transmit information from place to place, including:

remote controls for television sets and DVD player
data links over short distances between computers or mobile phones

www.bbc.co.uk...

When the information is transmitted from the human body in the form of infrared radiation (heat) it can still be seen. This is what we call ghosts.

Here's more:

Infrared is used in a variety of wireless communications, monitoring, and control applications. Here are some examples:

Home-entertainment remote-control boxes

Wireless (local area networks)

Links between notebook computers and desktop computers

Cordless modem

Intrusion detectors

Motion detectors

Fire sensors

Night-vision systems

Medical diagnostic equipment

Missile guidance systems

Geological monitoring devices

Transmitting IR data from one device to another is sometimes referred to as beaming.

searchnetworking.techtarget.com...

What is beaming?

1) In infrared transmission, beaming is the communication of data between wireless devices using a beam of infrared light. This beam, invisible to humans, is used in many familiar devices, such as television remote controls and garage door openers. Infrared transmission is often used to transfer information between computing devices, for example, beaming data between a handheld device, such as a personal digital assistant (PDA), and a laptop computer. Recently made portable computing devices are equipped with infrared ports, and entire networks can be set up using only infrared transmission for communication. However, because infrared transmission requires a clear line of sight, it isn't practical to use in an environment where there are physical objects -- such as walls -- in between the devices to be connected.

searchmobilecomputing.techtarget.com...

Again, when heat leaves the body at death in the form of infrared radiation, the transmission of data (the human body and experience) doesn't die.

Originally posted by neoholographic
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Sadly, you don't understand infrared radiation or it's uses.

Oh, I bet I do. Got a masters in physics?

You first try to compare a light bulb and a lamp to a living organism. You have to know when it comes to entropy and information humans and light bulbs are like apples and oranges.

Heat is heat. It doesn't matter if that heat came from a soldering iron, a fresh grilled cheese sandwich, a chimp, or a baby.

Secondly Infrared Radiation does a lot more when it comes to information.

None of this really helps your argument. It's EM. Nothing more. So what if you can modulate it to send digital data? You're not doing that with your body. Even if you were, once that heat has hit the sensor, the information's gone, like the light when you turn off the lamp. Old remote control signals don't continue to float around the room as control ghosts.

When the information is transmitted from the human body in the form of infrared radiation (heat) it can still be seen. This is what we call ghosts.

Infrared radiation travels at the speed of light. Once it leaves your body, it hits the wall or furniture a few nanoseconds later and becomes an undetectable increase in warmth there, and that's it. It's gone, guy.

Again, when heat leaves the body at death in the form of infrared radiation, the transmission of data (the human body and experience) doesn't die.

Your experience isn't encoded in infrared radiation, that's just left-over waste energy from your metabolism.

There's no information encoded in it. And, even if you were Harry, the world's only organism that's continually blasting his total memory contents over and over in modulated IR, it still flies away from you in all directions, hits the objects in the environment and warms them ever so slightly, and the information's gone. Nothing left but a tiny bit of warmth in your surroundings. The end.

Consider - where does the light go when you turn off the lamp? Is it still somewhere in the room? No. Does that lamp emit IR? Yes. Is that IR exactly the same qualitatively as the IR emitted by your body? Yes. If I blink that lamp on and off, encoding reams of data onto it using a computer, does that information persist somewhere after the light has hit the objects in the room? No. Are your memories, behavior, attitudes and whatnot somehow magically encoded in your body heat? No, what would the point of that be? Those things are mostly chemical and structural in nature, with maybe a bit of short-term electrical activity, in your head. When you die, those memories encoded in chemical and structural links in your neurons are gone. The behaviors are gone. You turn into a chemical mush, and the bacteria eat you. You become unstructured, and live on as an earthworm here, a nematode there, maybe a few ants, a daisy or two, a patch of grass.

Assuming heat is defined as the rate at which molecules have energy/vibrate/move (if someone can further clarify this point for me); isn't the heat lost just the molecules adjusting to the atmosphere through chemical equilibrium? Shouldn't the air get technically warmer, not colder -- since the energy dispersed would heat up the surrounding air?

Originally posted by NuclearMitochondria
Assuming heat is defined as the rate at which molecules have energy/vibrate/move (if someone can further clarify this point for me); isn't the heat lost just the molecules adjusting to the atmosphere through chemical equilibrium? Shouldn't the air get technically warmer, not colder -- since the energy dispersed would heat up the surrounding air?

Well, it's thermal equilibrium, not chemical. The air will be warmed while the guy's alive by convection and conduction. The radiation part is the IR, and it doesn't warm the air much, generally. When the guy dies and assumes room temperature, the convection and conduction part stops, although since he's not at absolute zero, the radiation part will continue even after death. Only, now it's saying "room temperature...room temperature" instead of "somewhere around 98.6F...".

reply to post by Bedlam


You're whole argument doesn't make sense. First you're comparing lamps and remote controls to the information contained in a human body. That's just silly.

We're talking about the human body. We're talking about huge amounts of data. DNA, the human brain, human experiences and more are all information. Like I said apples and oranges.

This information doesn't die. So when you say it just disappears or is gone, you're wrong. Again you're comparing light bulbs and remote controls to the human body. This information is carried by the infrared radiation (heat) that radiates from your body at death.

This information doesn't hit a sensor LOL. You're body isn't a remote control. It radiates from your body and this information remains throughout an afterlife if you believe in that or through reincarnation if that's your belief.

Again, THIS INFORMATION DOESN'T DIE.

There was a very interesting debate about this that led Stephen Hawking to reverse course. It had to do whether or not information was conserved. Information in the universe can't be created nor destroyed. Even when information falls into a black hole, it's spread out over the 2 dimensional event horizon.

Again, this goes back to entropy and information. We then have to talk about macrostates and microstates.

If 3 coins are being flipped there are 8 possible outcomes.

hhh
hht
htt
hth
thh
htt
tht
tth
ttt

There are 4 macrostates which are 3 heads, 2 heads, 1 heads and 0 heads. So 8 microstates produce 4 macrostates. This is call multiplicity, W. This just says there are many microstates that can produce the same macrostate. Let's look at this even further.

Crystalline Ice at 273K has 101,299,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 accessible microstates. The human body is about 310K. These microstates can't be destroyed.

If I throw my DVD Player into a black hole, the information will not be lost. The macroscopic DVD will be scrambled and unrecognizable but the microstates that produced the macrostate (DVD Player) would be spread out over the event horizon.

So when you die, your macrostate body dies but your microstates don't and this information leaves the body as infrared radiation (Heat) at death.

So let's review.

We have established that at death heat radiates from your body in the form of infrared radiation. So at death something (IR) leaves the body.

We have established that infrared radiation can carry and transmit information.

We have established that information doesn't die.

WE HAVE ESTABLISHED LIFE AFTER DEATH!

Originally posted by neoholographic

You're whole argument doesn't make sense. First you're comparing lamps and remote controls to the information contained in a human body. That's just silly.

IR is IR. If your entire thing is that the body emits infrared, then that's no different than any other source. Sorry, but it's true. The heat you emit indicates your temperature, not your memory content.

We're talking about the human body. We're talking about huge amounts of data. DNA, the human brain, human experiences and more are all information. Like I said apples and oranges.

And the heat energy you emit is just heat. No huge amounts of data, no experiences, no information other than "I'm this warm".

This information doesn't die. So when you say it just disappears or is gone, you're wrong. Again you're comparing light bulbs and remote controls to the human body. This information is carried by the infrared radiation (heat) that radiates from your body at death.

Yes it does die. When you die, all that information that's stored in synaptic weights, chemical storage and a small amount in electrical storage DOES die, that's it. It's NOT carried by heat. That heat has no real information to it. Heat radiates from you ALL THE TIME. And it's just heat. There's no info in it. IR is just really red light. Light doesn't hang there emitting information. It takes off at the speed of light, hits whatever is around you, and is absorbed. The end.

This information doesn't hit a sensor LOL. You're body isn't a remote control. It radiates from your body and this information remains throughout an afterlife if you believe in that or through reincarnation if that's your belief.

You were the one quoting all the IR info sent by remotes. That was YOUR example. At least a remote has some data modulated onto it. All YOU've got is "I'm about 98 degrees F" That info is gone the second you die, what little of it there is.

Again, THIS INFORMATION DOESN'T DIE.

IT'S NOT THERE TO BEGIN WITH. And yes, all the info you DO have, dies when you croak. The end.

There was a very interesting debate about this that led Stephen Hawking to reverse course. It had to do whether or not information was conserved. Information in the universe can't be created nor destroyed.

Sure it is. All the time.

Again, this goes back to entropy and information. We then have to talk about macrostates and microstates.

If 3 coins are being flipped there are 8 possible outcomes.

hhh
hht
htt
hth
thh
htt
tht
tth
ttt

And when the coins 'die', let's say they melt, it's ---. Dead. Gone. No more states. Just like YOU.

We have established that at death heat radiates from your body in the form of infrared radiation. So at death something (IR) leaves the body.

The only info it's carrying is your temperature. And it leaves all the time. Even when your brain's a meat milkshake after you die, you'll still have a temperature. And just like when you were alive, all the info is going to be is "I'm this temperature". And that's it.

We have established that infrared radiation can carry and transmit information.

Only in your case, it's just that one piece of info.

We have established that information doesn't die.

You become disordered, and the information that was you is now noise.

WE HAVE ESTABLISHED LIFE AFTER DEATH!

I'm sure you'll be lovely as a dandelion, maybe a bit of rat.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Sure. Like I said above, what it tells you, is "how hot is this object". The end.

Actually, that would be temperature, not heat. Heat is thermal energy and all energy is capable of transferring information but we don't use all types of energy for that purpose or know how to translate all of the information a source may have.
Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing with the topic, I just wanted to clarify that heat is thermal energy, "how hot is this object" is a measurement called temperature which is one of the forms of information that we can collect from thermal energy indicating how much thermal energy may be present.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by neoholographic
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Sadly, you don't understand infrared radiation or it's uses.

Oh, I bet I do. Got a masters in physics?

I have a Bachelor's in it, does that count?

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by Bedlam

Sure. Like I said above, what it tells you, is "how hot is this object". The end.

Actually, that would be temperature, not heat.

The amount of heat radiated is proportional to the 4th power of the temperature. So the information that radiated heat conveys is the temperature of the object. Beyotch.

ps - that's why IR thermometers give you the temperature - not the amount of heat energy present in an object. You can't know that without knowing a lot more about the object, but you can tell the temperature. And that's pretty much all you can tell.

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by neoholographic
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Sadly, you don't understand infrared radiation or it's uses.

Oh, I bet I do. Got a masters in physics?

I have a Bachelor's in it, does that count?

edit on 10-5-2012 by PurpleChiten because: corrected an error

Not if they didn't teach you Stefan-Boltzmann! Get a refund!

/ps kidding!

reply to post by Bedlam


Clearly you don't understand what information is. Information can't be destroyed. It just changes from a low or high state of entropy. For instance affhhhhjjjkklllodd is information in a high state of entropy vs. I went to the store, which is in a lower state of entropy.

Information can't be destroyed. Here's a little bit of an interview with Leonard Susskind talking about the back and forth between himself and Stephen Hawking.

I was a particle physicist when I was invited to an event at Werner Erhard's house in 1981. Erhard [founder of the est self-awareness movement] admired scientists and liked to listen to them debate. At one of his events, I met Stephen Hawking. Stephen discovered an amazing fact, which is that black holes evaporate. It's like a puddle of water out in the sun.

OK.

So the question is, What happens to the information trapped in the black hole? Stephen said it was lost forever. Stephen didn't just say it, he proved it. At least he convinced himself and everybody else mathematically that it was true.

And you felt that was wrong.

It violates one of the fundamental principles of physics, which says nothing is ever lost completely. You may say, "How can you say information isn't lost? I can erase information on my computer." But every time a bit of information is erased, we know it doesn't disappear. It goes out into the environment. It may be horribly scrambled and confused, but it never really gets lost. It's just converted into a different form.

Stephen now agrees that the information is not lost when a black hole evaporates.

Yes, he's seen the light. When he sees the light, he's very magnanimous.

[Susskind pointed to a page in his book, where a concession letter from Hawking is printed.]

articles.latimes.com...

Here's a lecture where Susskind goes over it in detail.

www.youtube.com...

Again, information can't be destroyed just converted from one form to another. Everything you do is a process of information. Every thought or memory.

When you die, this information radiates from your body in the for of infrared radiation (heat). Again, infrared radiation is used to transmit data.

You can't have a degree in physics saying things like this.

And when the coins 'die', let's say they melt, it's ---. Dead. Gone. No more states. Just like YOU.

Coins melting has nothing to to with the death of a biological system LOL. I think my sixth grade nephew would understand this.

When your body dies (macrostate) the microstates don't die and go poof. The microstates are carried by infrared radiation that leaves the body at death.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by Bedlam

Sure. Like I said above, what it tells you, is "how hot is this object". The end.

Actually, that would be temperature, not heat.

The amount of heat radiated is proportional to the 4th power of the temperature. So the information that radiated heat conveys is the temperature of the object. Beyotch.

ps - that's why IR thermometers give you the temperature - not the amount of heat energy present in an object. You can't know that without knowing a lot more about the object, but you can tell the temperature. And that's pretty much all you can tell.

edit on 10-5-2012 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)

Almost, but not quite. You may want to read up just a litle bit more.

Originally posted by neoholographic
Stephen now agrees that the information is not lost when a black hole evaporates.

You're not a black hole. When you die, the structures that encode for your memories are gone. The processes that are your thoughts cease. The very chemicals that your memories were encoded in are munched up and digested by other critters. They may persist as a random purine here, a pyrimidine there, but the structure that WAS the data is no more.

Again, information can't be destroyed just converted from one form to another. Everything you do is a process of information. Every thought or memory.

That information can easily be reduced to noise. And yours will be when you die. Not only will the information be reduced to noise, but the system upon which it ran will be disordered.

When you die, this information radiates from your body in the for of infrared radiation (heat). Again, infrared radiation is used to transmit data.

It does not. How are you coming up with this? What do you think are the mechanisms for somehow encoding all your memories at the moment of your death onto modulated body heat? You're grasping frantically here. The only information YOUR infrared radiation is broadcasting is your temperature.

You can't have a degree in physics saying things like this.

Oh, but I do.

Coins melting has nothing to to with the death of a biological system LOL. I think my sixth grade nephew would understand this.

It's YOUR analogy, dude. Go back and look - you wrote it.

When your body dies (macrostate) the microstates don't die and go poof. The microstates are carried by infrared radiation that leaves the body at death.

Perhaps you'll bless us with the mechanism of how that occurs.

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Almost, but not quite. You may want to read up just a litle bit more.

You typically don't use the wavelength when it's IR. See also bolometry.

Context - we're talking about IR thermal measurement here. He's not getting that. No point segueing off into Wien displacements and blackbody measurement while the guy's thinking that somehow his entire memory is somehow encoded into body heat fluctuations at the moment of death.