'Alien Abduction' Research Suggests Episodes Are Actually Lucid Dreams

As one who has studied the occult,(hidden),and the writtings of Crowley there is one quote from Crowley that is so fitting of this thread;That physical science has totally missed the reality of other dimensions and intelligences out of the arrogant and some what ignorant mind set of "produce it in a test tube or its non sense" agenda..For anyone who has experienced astral projection ect they will know the meaning of my post or where i am heading.I have had astral projections on several occasions and can recall the first one that came about of me willing myself to project.

I can say this now that UNTIL one experiences an astral projection one has no real perception or understanding of the real reality of that realm.Once in this astral body i can tell you that you are completely AWARE of your surroundings as you now are aware of reading this post only that you are much more mobile and lighter and objects and your surroundings appear as if they are electrical charged.

Mack perceived this from some of his subjects and as Mack found out and was trying to show the world real experiences when being described by someone who is experiencing REAL experiences and NOT dreams or hallucinations or mental disorders is so much more real to the listener when one can perceive its reality in the form of those that have or are experiencing things that defy or challenge what science currently judges or decides on what is acceptable and what is not. You will never know the reality of the astral until you try it for your self.

Science is always discovering odd scraps of magical wisdom and making a tremendous fuss about its cleverness. Aleister Crowley;

link; www.brainyquote.com...

edit on 15/07/2010 by K-PAX-PROT because: (no reason given)

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edit on 15/07/2010 by K-PAX-PROT because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by juleol

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret
The scientists are almost right.

But the problem is that these are astral encounters with nonphysical astral beings.

So instead of lucid dream, I would say OBE/astral projection.

And I would disagree. I think they are nothing more than a lucid dream. I have had plenty of WILD induced lucid dreams that are exactly like how people describe their OBE experiences. I have the vibrations, sounds that most claim to have, which is nothing more than a side effect from sleep paralysis.
The techniques to induce so called oobes are even nearly identical to WILD technique which is known to often induce sleep paralysis. A person floating out of his/her body is nothing more than a shift to the dreambody once your physical body has been paralyzed.

You are quite right that OBE and WILD's use the same starting steps. The only difference is at the very end. They are different things though.

Alien abductions = astral abductions

Originally posted by kerazeesicko


You accept one Harvard professor's work but not two other professors who are also from Harvard who have come to different conclusions? Why?

Why don't you provide a theory that takes the five factors explained by John Mack into account?

Point me to a theory by those professors that happens to cover the five factors needed for a theory to explain the phenomena of abductions.

Originally posted by K-PAX-PROT, here they are again:

MACK: These experiences often occur in literal consciousness. Not in a hypnogogic or dreamlike state. The person may be in their bedroom quite wide awake. The beings show up. And there they are and the experience begins. That they're not occurring in any dreamlike state. Now sometimes they do occur when a person is dozing off or in a hypnogogic state. But very frequently not. Also, any theory that is going to look upon this as a purely endogenous phenomenon, by which I mean generated purely from the psyche of the person themselves. Which is a kind of arrogance too, really.

Because it means that we just can't accept the notion there could be another intelligence at work here. Which is a much more economical explanation. But if we must find a theory within ourselves, then we should keep in mind that any theory that's going to even begin to address this, has to take into account five factors:

Number one; the extreme consistency of the stories from person after person. Which you would not get simply by stimulating the temporal lobes.
You would get very variable idiosyncratic responses that would differ a great deal from person to person.

Number two, you would have to deal with the fact that there is no ordinary experiential basis for this. In other words, there's nothing in their life experience that could have given rise to this, other than what they say.
In other words, there's no mental condition that could explain it.

Third, you have to account for the physical aspects: the cuts and the other lesions on their bodies, which do not follow any psychodynamic distribution, like the stigmata associated with the identification with the agony of Christ.

Fourth, the tight association with UFOs, which are often observed in the community, by the media, independent of the person having the abduction experience, who may not have seen the UFO at all, but reads or sees on the television the next day that a UFO passed near where they were when they had an abduction experience. And finally,

And finally, the phenomenon occurs in children as young as two, two and a half, three years old. And any theory that simply attributes this to the activity of the brain, does not take into account at least three of those five fundamental dimensions...

It IS the most economical explanation we have..

You're not going to get proof, get real, you'll get tonnes of evidence though, including cases where the victims have radiation sickness.

If you can see the forest for the trees the picture is pretty damned clear.

Personally I love this John Mack quote, sums the whole situation up eloquently

"
In summary, the abduction phenomenon is of considerable clinical and scientific interest. No convincing explanation of the experiences abductees report is currently evident. We may learn from further research a great deal about the nature of the human psyche and expand our notions of psychological and physical reality. The phenomenon may deliver to us a kind of fourth blow to our collective egoism, following those of Copernicus, Darwin and Freud. For we may be led to realize that not only are we not physically at the center of the universe, transcending other life forms and rational masters of our psyches-we are not even the preeminent or dominant intelligence in the cosmos, in control of our psychological and physical existences. It appears that we can be "invaded" or taken over, if not literally by other creatures, then by some other form of being or consciousness that seems able to do with us what it will for a purpose we cannot yet fathom.
"

Finally.. the whole damned world is biased due to brainwashing.

Originally posted by K-PAX-PROT
As one who has studied the occult,(hidden),and the writtings of Crowley there is one quote from Crowley that is so fitting of this thread;That physical science has totally missed the reality of other dimensions and intelligences out of the arrogant and some what ignorant mind set of "produce it in a test tube or its non sense" agenda..For anyone who has experienced astral projection etc

Even though through inductive reasoning on which much of scientific theory is based, all that experimentation and observation which has led to an explosion in scientific knowlegde. We're meant to give all of that up and take a person's word for something? Point is most haven't experienced 'astral projection', I don't see how you can expect them to change their minds suddenly because all of a sudden, "science is nonsense". Science isn't the problem, it's one of the few redeeming developments of mankind and again, it's given us a huge base of knowledge. It's some of the scientists who practice science that are the problem. With a 'fringe' subject such as UFOs, there's been very little serious interest in investigating further. Partly because of subersive efforts such as the Robertson Panel and Condon Reports and years of derision by the media. But also because stereotypes perpetuate stories about being anal probed and having space orgies on the moon without any shred of proof. If I recall, the U.S did a study on astral projection or remote viewing and apparently the results were quite underwhelming. If it doesn't hold up to scrutiny then it ought to be challenged surely?

In the same way that if someone claims to have been abducted, one would reasonably ask for some sort of proof or method of corroborating such claims. Further serious study ought to be undertaken. I think such conditions as sleep paralysis are bound to account for a significant number of 'abduction' cases. Of course that doesn't mean all claims are misidentified conditions. And by studying such things, I think it shows a genuine and sincere attempt to discover the truth, rather than try and subvert it in any way.

Originally posted by kaleshchand
So unless the so called abudctee realized that they were dreaming while they were dreaming about the abduction it can't be a lucid dream. But if they did know then they would not claim or report an abduction.

It can be a dream, no doubt about that and I have seen almost no evidence of any abductions. So yes they could be dreams, but not lucid dreams.

Sorry, i need to disagree you with you there.

As for LD, if you experience a LD it really is perceived and experienced "as real" as if you were to experience something "in reality" while you are awake - and i would say there is a special quality about a LD which a normal dream just does not have.

Simply spoken, here's a difference:

Normal: You go to bed, fall asleep, wake up and recall some dream after you wake up.
LD: You lay there, fully awake, and in the next instant "you really are" at some other place and you experience this "being somewhere else" with your normal, lucid senses and with your normal rational thinking.

So..for someone who never had a LD i tcan very well mean an incredible experience where they cannot be sure what just happened and where they actually don't make a connection between a "normal" dream and this experience.

From a "scientific" point of view there is nothing wrong with "explaining" Alien abductions with LDs, but this doesn't necessarily mean that this explanation personally satisfies me. In fact, for me it's quite irrelevant whether the experience happens "in real" or "only" being a LD, this does not lessen the experience in the slightest or make it less "real". Because by doing so it would mean to assume that our waking consciousness is the only "valid" one - and i reject this idea since its closed minded and think history/philosophy/metaphysics etc. has already proven that there is more than one "valid" state of consciousness.

If we go even further (well aware that this is speculative and many might reject this idea)...i would even go so far and say that extremely high advanced "beings" could have mastered to be independent from ONE single "physical reality" and might indeed live/reside on another "plane" or whatever we might wanna call this which is different from our waking consciousness which is (admittedly) extremely limited.

Anyone who has experience with drugs, trance, spiritualism, metaphysics, religion even..can confirm that your "normal" state is only a tiny fraction of what "is real".

Originally posted by Retro~Burn

Originally posted by K-PAX-PROT
As one who has studied the occult,(hidden),and the writtings of Crowley there is one quote from Crowley that is so fitting of this thread;That physical science has totally missed the reality of other dimensions and intelligences out of the arrogant and some what ignorant mind set of "produce it in a test tube or its non sense" agenda..For anyone who has experienced astral projection etc

Even though through inductive reasoning on which much of scientific theory is based, all that experimentation and observation which has led to an explosion in scientific knowlegde. We're meant to give all of that up and take a person's word for something? Point is most haven't experienced 'astral projection', I don't see how you can expect them to change their minds suddenly because all of a sudden, "science is nonsense". Science isn't the problem, it's one of the few redeeming developments of mankind and again, it's given us a huge base of knowledge. It's some of the scientists who practice science that are the problem. With a 'fringe' subject such as UFOs, there's been very little serious interest in investigating further. Partly because of subersive efforts such as the Robertson Panel and Condon Reports and years of derision by the media. But also because stereotypes perpetuate stories about being anal probed and having space orgies on the moon without any shred of proof. If I recall, the U.S did a study on astral projection or remote viewing and apparently the results were quite underwhelming. If it doesn't hold up to scrutiny then it ought to be challenged surely?

In the same way that if someone claims to have been abducted, one would reasonably ask for some sort of proof or method of corroborating such claims. Further serious study ought to be undertaken. I think such conditions as sleep paralysis are bound to account for a significant number of 'abduction' cases. Of course that doesn't mean all claims are misidentified conditions. And by studying such things, I think it shows a genuine and sincere attempt to discover the truth, rather than try and subvert it in any way.

As i said UNTIL you experience full awareness in your astral body you will never understand what it involves and your post sums up the response of one that has not experienced it.Just because astral projection does not work for some people it does not mean it is not real.The occult practise is a science ,that is how one perceives it,you want proof of abduction then listen to those who have experienced it.You want proof of astral projection then try projection.The scrutiny and proof holds up with those how have experienced abduction or astral projections ,those who cannot believe in such realities are the ones that need to EXPERIENCE IT.You can cry "proof ,proof ,show me proof for eternity but in reality that proof is in your own astral body and NOT in a physical test tube , surely peoples experiences and the way in which the relive it is something that is warrant for a genuine unseen intelligence and its involvement with the human condition be the that mentally or physically.

I'm gonna make a pretty bold statement here. Alien abductions ARE sleep paralysis with hypnagogic imagery/sound. My reasons for believing this?

Let's travel back to the 'old' days when everyone believed in demons, monsters and posession. It was quite common for people to tell stories of an incubus/sucubus entering their rooms at night and raping them while they're completely unable to move. Why doesn't this happen, or rarely happen today? Because no one believes in that crap any more. Aliens have taken over in our culture and therefor it's aliens that people see. Sleep paralysis is a very real phenomenon where your body is asleep and your mind is half awake. You're half awake and suddenly realise you can't move, but because you're also still in the dream state, absolutely anything you imagine can appear. You're still dreaming. So people hallucinate all kinds of crap for why they can't move. Most people imagine spirits or something sitting on their chest holding them down (it's very common to feel pressure on your chest). A lot of people think they're being abducted because they're already conditioned to believe it happens.

It's happened to me before and I was convinced I got abducted. I felt myself on a cold, metal table, unable to move and slowly moving upwards towards a purple light. I was screaming for my life but was helpless. All of a sudden I woke up in my bed. I asked my parents if they heard anything but they said no. I went back to bed and as I started to fall asleep it began happening again, I couldn't move and started to see a light above me. I struggled as hard as I could, screaming at my body to start moving and eventually I got control back as the light faded. This happened again and again and I realised my body was just falling asleep and I was dreaming. I'm a very experienced lucid dreamer now and I'm now able to use this stage to enter a dream where I'm in control.

I have no doubt that alien abductions are dreamlike hallucinations while people are 90% asleep

I think at least a large portion of alien abductions are lucid dreams, but that is like saying that because there is rose scented perfume there are no roses. (for the record I do NOT believe alien abduction is happening)

Nice of you to assume. I've actually had two so-called OBEs. One I was too young to remember but I related it to my mum. The second was certainly vivid. But then again it may have just been a vivid dream. Who am I to exclaim I know what it was? The power of the mind is incredible and I don't think it's been fully tapped. Perhaps there is some cognitive process who do not fully understand which isn't paranormal as such. You're the one making the claim, you're the one who has the burden of proof place upon them, not me. If you want us and everyone to believe you. Then you could prove it (if you really wanted to) by conducting a few experiments. What you're describing seems to be a heightened psychological experience of some kind. It's certainly far more plausible than playing Casper.

reply to post by Retro~Burn


I take it that your last post was aimed at me,Well i will tell you this i do not CARE if you or anyone believes me or not, is that simple enough for you to understand.You are just not getting it at all, the PROOF is in your astral projections and your awareness in this state and what YOU personally gained from those experiences. No two people will have the same perceptions or gain their personal belief systems from a astral protection or experience, to judge every thing by a couple of personal astral projections and say its all in the mind is made by those who have not developed their "ASTRAL CONCIOUSNESS AWARENESS" through the OCCULT practises and rites of passage in order to inter react with the higher intelligences of the lower and higher,(mental/spiritual) ,astral realms.

There are different levels of development of your astral body and your own AWARENESS of your surroundings in this state. Your summing up seems to be from your OWN experiences and from that your are deciding that this is the rule what everyone should be judged by and you say i am assuming.???

I TAKE MY EXPERIENCES AS I SEE FIT and just like you decided if its real in its own sense which i believe it is so.To me there is only one set of guidelines and laws that can offer true understanding and awareness of other dimensional realities and that is the OCCULT .Now are your arguments stemming from or based on an occult perspective or a test tube physical brain like judgement for ALL astral mental states of awareness.I

Are you aware of Crowleys systematic teachings of the occult where it is pointed out that the real occult practises are carried out in the different LEVELS of the astral realms and with the aid of intelligences that inhabit those realms.Once astrally projected you can either,( depending on your level of development ),stay in the lower dense ethric body or enter the astral planes, each of these planes has sub planes or higher or lower planes.

You want proof then study Crowleys occult teachings and as i have said real occult practises are a science and study is required along trial and experimentation of the different rites of the teachings and practises of the occult,(hidden).

I will reiterate you that you really need to study and practise THE OCCULT and i recommend Crowleys book ,"MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTISE" that is where you will find your answers that you seek to ease your burden of proof demands they lie in your own development through the occult understandings of the astral planes of AWARENESS.Seek not to judge other peoples awareness of their astral experiences until you can perceive and understand the higher occult realities of the astral realms.You will never understand that the occult adds a much better awareness or conciousness perception of the reality that other dimensions ,(realms) exist beyond the dense physical vibration we call this physical plane.

Like the physical or the "here and now" the astral planes are governed by their own laws and until you immerse your self in it them by the occult practises you will continue to perceive the astral as a vivid dream like experienced when in reality your are just sleep walking in the astral believing that this vivid dream is all there is in this other dimensional reality or vibration awareness.

The occult which means hidden deals with just that ,the hidden realms just beyond this dense physical reality we call earth, nothing is easily gained in this world,true understanding and meaning has to be earned and worked for and so does this imply to the the development of astral awareness through the occult .You will not find your answers to your burden of proof demands through ignorance of occult astral awarenesses or conciousness expanding perceptions through occult practises.

Some things just cannot be perceived or fully understood by a one sided physical science that is from the start wholly prejudiced to anything it cannot understand through its physical ordinate importance of the mental experiences originating from its be all and end all physical brain perceptions. The human physical brain is much more than a sensor for physical stimulations and mental states of awareness, it is not currently fully understood by the physical and mental sciences ,so to condemn or reject any signs or claims of mental awareness that are not the norm is wholly premature and actually stopping further investigation's and research into the those non physical realms that can be reached by the occult understandings and practises. ONE CAN SHOW OR LEAD ONE TO THE WATER BUT ONE CANNOT MAKE ONE SWIM IN IT.

Originally posted by Retro~Burn
Nice of you to assume. I've actually had two so-called OBEs. One I was too young to remember but I related it to my mum. The second was certainly vivid. But then again it may have just been a vivid dream. Who am I to exclaim I know what it was? The power of the mind is incredible and I don't think it's been fully tapped. Perhaps there is some cognitive process who do not fully understand which isn't paranormal as such. You're the one making the claim, you're the one who has the burden of proof place upon them, not me. If you want us and everyone to believe you. Then you could prove it (if you really wanted to) by conducting a few experiments. What you're describing seems to be a heightened psychological experience of some kind. It's certainly far more plausible than playing Casper.

Apart for the occult literature available here is a video that might shed some light on the basis of what Crowley was engaged in and what he thought was the way forward for humanity to see through the veils of ignorance and the hidden realities of other dimensions.This is a long video but interesting to those unaware or just interested in alternative ways of investigating other real realities and the practises to "ATTAIN" those realms and experiences.

I'm of the view that UFOs and alien abductions are demonic and spiritual in origin. The main reason I come to this conclusion is their effects are predominantly negative. I've read a few sources that concur likewise. For instance, Jacques Vallee, who supports the view they are interdimensional beings and are linked to the supernatural and fantastic like fairies, ghosts, etc. once noted similarities between various medieval accounts of demonic torture and the "medical examinations" many victims allege they're forced to undergo by their abductors. It can even be argued that records exist throughout history that parallel the modern UFO-related MIB phenomena too. Even John Keel asserted: "The ufonauts are the liars, not the contactees. And they are lying deliberately as part of the bewildering smokescreen which they have established to cover their real origin, purpose and motivation." I think they act very much like a psy-op as they make claims about the universe or future events that are later proven wrong. And as a result I believe they aim to subject their victims to trauma be it emotional, mental, physical or spiritual, not only from the experience itself, but the repercussions of claiming such encounters. I reckon a lot of "alien abductions" originate in the mind, that is, those who claim to have been transported to a spaceship or a planet and experimented on or shown future events etc. have actually been subconsciously inserted with such visual experiences that later are revealed through hypnosis. The question whether what they're experiencing is real or fantasy I think comes into play in the account of Antonio Villas Boas who claimed to have had sex with an alien humanoid, and the link between "reality" and "fantasy" is evidenced widely in this phenomena. For instance, Harold M. Sherman's story of "The Green Man" actually anticipated electromagnetic interference by UFOs prior to official records of car stoppages and blackouts occuring in UFO case studies; Spielberg's portrayal of "Grays" in his film "CEIII" influenced a whole class of UFO cases cases involving them, which were rare prior to the release of the film; in Bertrand Meheust's "Science-fiction et soucoupes volantes" he looks at the extraordinary similarities between UFO accounts in the 1970s with sci-fi stories published 50 years earlier--one of them even matching Villa Boas experience! In most cases those reporting the UFO sightings or alien abductions couldn't have heard of these stories let alone read them! It's even a mystery how to account for the fact that UFOs have pre-empted future technology throughout human history, such as the wave of airship sightings in the late 19th century prior to their manufacture or the silvery craft in the postwar, pre-rocket-savvy era. But, I do believe our mind and imagination has a definite impact on our reality or perception of it. A really good resource I found helpful was Gary Bates Alien Intrusion and another on a separate topic of 9/11 synchronicities is Imagining 9/11