Would Man Exist Without Chaos?

reply to post by GrandHeretic


it wont b chaos word that define it then

chaos is the result of killing true references of superiority, the will is to b free in meaning absolute superiority to one existence while being sure that things exist since superiority is down surviving ur will, and the result is chaos
it is very calculated move for one easy benefits constant

what u mean is abstract inferiority, how individual freedom should b right to know the angles of their nonsuperiority better in order to stay true so for constant positive existence
ones must always realize alone, u can admit else existence the least and choose to do smthg totally different away, killing another to b is showing the true reason of its end, how then u r meaning all one always for absolute benefits gifts, so chaos in the sense of making opposite rule life never making smthg urself

the point i guess that sumarize it the best, is what using others to b constant is worse then nothing while never to

killing what exist while not existing urself is in concept complete useless will and objectively is to everything existence deformations making it detached totally of their facts which become existing in absolute freedom out ways

nope thats why God created wo-man?



while evolution embrace entropy, seems chaos is consistent with devolution, ie higher being ie deva to human - thus all the accumulation of more and more mutations, genetic diseases with each generation - supposedly as follows.

who knows.

reply to post by BiggerPicture


woman is not a higher being, on the contrary women nature is to never evolve by loving to grow in staying where they are constant repetitions of themselves positive life or beings

ur insistance to reject truth for god creations as the only reason of any and all, make any word u say or attempt as nothing since never related to reality of things

reply to post by absolutely


I have to admit, i get the jest, only the barrier of which you created in your words badly muttles the message.

Perhaps your thought on the matter is over shooting the plumbing? What i mean is, in relation to chaos, perhaps it is much simpler than we think it is.

Often people whom take the thought end over end merely create confusion to what the raw being of a subject truly is.

All things are created out of chaos, this much is certain. So we can easily perceive that because if that much is true, then all mutations and contortions of a living being in a organised planned fashion is nothing more than the result of more chaos in play.

Perhaps chaos isnt as motley and random as we think it is if this is indeed the truth.

Superior or inferior really sets no precedence as with chaos either or would be fair game...because it's chaos.

Again unplanned, not unorganised.

Chaos only exists in the minds of men. I say that because I don't see chaos in any place; not in black holes, not in decay, not even in great explosions... if someone knows where chaos resides please tell me.

Chaos seems like something we want to impose on reality but I think nature resists this. It has more to do with the limits of our perception and perspective.

reply to post by GrandHeretic


u do the same error to stay in evil realms that u love

nothing objective is planned while humanity is planned to an extreme extent

but u plan urself alone so speaking about everything plans how u dont mean, deserve the reply planning u over ur own plans for urself
i repeat everything must b free like each thing and each reality of a thing and each free pick reality of reality free, u see of course no plan for what is not ur business

reply to post by absolutely


Now your just being philosophical

but i can dig it..

reply to post by monkcaw


I agree that we can't actually percieve pure chaos, becuase I don't think it exists. Pure chaos is only a theoretical concept, and if it existed then we would not be alive. The universe, galaxies, solar systems, planets, life all have formed from order. The universe tends towards entropy, the tendency towards disorder. But entropy is not chaos, because entropy implies that there is order to begin with, or there can be no tendency towards disorder. Perhaps in the infinite future when the universe has infinitely moved towards entropy, it would be total chaos. But again this is only a theoretical situation, not something we will actually experience.

reply to post by Wang Tang


Well said and I agree. My only question, since we're talking about theoretical things, is if we could imagine a "higher" perspective, one where perception is infinite. Would we perceive chaos then? Or would we see that the perception of chaos is only a symptom of our finite perspective?

Originally posted by monkcaw
Chaos only exists in the minds of men. I say that because I don't see chaos in any place; not in black holes, not in decay, not even in great explosions... if someone knows where chaos resides please tell me.

Chaos seems like something we want to impose on reality but I think nature resists this. It has more to do with the limits of our perception and perspective.

Well, really any idea and concept exists in the minds of men. And I agree, nature resists chaos, or is at least attempting to put order to the chaos around it.

I'm not quite sure how you couldn't see chaos in great explosions. Explosions are perfect conditions for chaos. It would be impossible to predict where matter inside an explosion would end up.

Chaotic behavior has been observed in the laboratory in a variety of systems, including electrical circuits, lasers, oscillating chemical reactions, fluid dynamics, and mechanical and magneto-mechanical devices, as well as computer models of chaotic processes. Observations of chaotic behavior in nature include changes in weather, the dynamics of satellites in the solar system, the time evolution of the magnetic field of celestial bodies, population growth in ecology, the dynamics of the action potentials in neurons, and molecular vibrations. There is some controversy over the existence of chaotic dynamics in plate tectonics and in economics.

Wikipedia

Another question about your post: How do we impose chaos? We are systematic beings. We wish anything but chaos. We invented minutes, hours, days, months, etc. etc. This is an attempt to systematize chaos. We must define everything, we must have an answer for everything. The only reason chaos can arrise from our attempt to systematize everything is that chaos is inherit in everything. We cannot impose chaos, we are only capable of imposing the opposite—systems.

I'd say true chaos doesn't exist in the minds of men, only order.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


First off - I would like a definition of chaos. One could argue the events following the big bang could be labeled as "order" as well. Order enough to create vast amounts of intense matter, such as stars/planets/galaxies/etc... but then I see you balance out the question by saying there is both "chaos" and "order" in the universe. It seems as though this is apparent when we observe our lives. We dive into what is the unknown and also the known each day. So, to answer your question (in my opinion), no I don't think man could not exist without chaos.

It is a HUGE theme from ancient creation ideas that existence came from chaos. I think this form of chaos is what we do not know - and we think of this as something like a black void. This seems pretty chaotic... a vast amount of whatever variable you see fit. And then suddenly we are conscious... This may also be applied to the question, "Where were we before we were born?" I don't seem to remember anything, and I don't remember either happiness nor depression... but in a way I feel comfortable when I think about it. The "chaos" seems normal and hey maybe this may get more towards the answer you're looking for.

Originally posted by Myollinir
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

First off - I would like a definition of chaos.

I would usually refuse such a request as to avoid a battle of definitions, but so far I've been using the word chaos as "unpredictability" in the universe, where any result is possible.

I think I'm wrong in using the word "order" as an antonym to chaos . As Wang Tang suggested, the opposite of order is disorder. Both order and disorder can be reached through chaos. If I dropped 4 quarters, and all of them landed heads, it appears as if there's order, even if this coincidence was reached through the conditions of chaos.

So yes, life, nature, gravity etc could be the coincidental result of chaos. This is what I'm trying to determine.

One could argue the events following the big bang could be labeled as "order" as well. Order enough to create vast amounts of intense matter, such as stars/planets/galaxies/etc... but then I see you balance out the question by saying there is both "chaos" and "order" in the universe. It seems as though this is apparent when we observe our lives. We dive into what is the unknown and also the known each day. So, to answer your question (in my opinion), no I don't think man could not exist without chaos.

Agreed. People will call it what they want. But I would still argue that the planets, stars etc. are the results of an unpredictable chain of events which began in the big bang. I would still say stars, planets, solar systems, gravity, life, nature etc. are coincidences.

It is a HUGE theme from ancient creation ideas that existence came from chaos. I think this form of chaos is what we do not know - and we think of this as something like a black void. This seems pretty chaotic... a vast amount of whatever variable you see fit. And then suddenly we are conscious... This may also be applied to the question, "Where were we before we were born?" I don't seem to remember anything, and I don't remember either happiness nor depression... but in a way I feel comfortable when I think about it. The "chaos" seems normal and hey maybe this may get more towards the answer you're looking for.

Yes, for man, chaos would be the unknown. I only used man as an example because for people, man is the measure of all things. What I should have asked is: "Would ANYTHING exist without chaos?"

Thanks for the insight, it helped me round off some things in my head.

Here's my take on the definition of chaos.

What we experience in our life is the tendency towards order and the tendency towards disorder, entropy. Complete order and complete disorder are theoretical concepts that as far as we know don't actually exist.

Order: The formation of humans into societies, the formation of matter into planets, stars, galaxies.
Entropy: The tendency of the universe to expand, blackholes, the degeneration and death of living things, the explosion of stars.

Total order: state of the universe if we go infinitely backwards in time, before the Big Bang.
Chaos (Total disorder): state of the universe if we go infinitely forwards in time, the universe has completely degenerated and expanded infinitely.

My problem with the word chaos is it has an absolute, uncompromising meaning, that being total disorder. You can't have partial chaos because that would imply there is SOME order, and if there is some order there is NO chaos.

This is my current understanding of the word chaos, please correct me if I'm wrong because this discussion can't really continue if we all have differing views on the meaning of chaos.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

I think I'm wrong in using the word "order" as an antonym to chaos . As Wang Tang suggested, the opposite of order is disorder. Both order and disorder can be reached through chaos. If I dropped 4 quarters, and all of them landed heads, it appears as if there's order, even if this coincidence was reached through the conditions of chaos.

As for what you mention as chaos here, I have to disagree that if all 4 quarters land on heads it appears there is order. I think this is proof of disorder, if there was order it would follow the most likely probability and land 2 heads 2 tails. What I'm trying to say is I don't think order can be reached through chaos.

It seems we agree disorder is the antonym to order. I believe the antonym to chaos is simply total order. This is because "order" by itself refers to the process of our universe moving towards total order, while total order is an unchanging theoretical endstate.

Originally posted by Wang Tang
Here's my take on the definition of chaos.
What we experience in our life is the tendency towards order and the tendency towards disorder, entropy. Complete order and complete disorder are theoretical concepts that as far as we know don't actually exist.

Yes; I'm aware that these are concepts. Everything we're discussing is concepts. Language is a concept. I'm not promoting any dogma here, just discussing concepts.

I agree with how you define entropy as well, and it sounds close to what I'm talking about. My definition of chaos is a little different: Chaos isn't just disorder, but also unpredictability, the unknown and confusion, behaviour so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in initial conditions. My knowledge of physics may be adequate at best, but this is how I've been using the word Chaos so far.

I suggested that humans are beings of order, we are systematizers. Without chaos, or unpredictability of the goings on around us—perhaps inside us—there'd be no reason for language, society, the systems we build. We would not exist, as there would be nothing to put order to. I also think we could apply to everything else in the universe. I would suggest that entropy, gravity, black holes, life, stars—everything—is the result of billions and billions of years of coincidences and accidents. I don't see how it could it be otherwise.

As for what you mention as chaos here, I have to disagree that if all 4 quarters land on heads it appears there is order. I think this is proof of disorder, if there was order it would follow the most likely probability and land 2 heads 2 tails. What I'm trying to say is I don't think order can be reached through chaos.

Let's say they landed in a perfect stack; although not probable at all, the result still has the appearance of order. Could anyone who walked by that stack of quarters say there was no order to it? The very reason we only use probabilities rather than absolutes is because we have to account for chaos and the coincidences it distributes randomly. What I was getting at with my stupid quarter metaphor was that life itself, a completely systematic and ordered entity, is the result of a seemingly infinite series of random events. Thus order out of chaos.

I wouldn't mind hearing what you think now that I either cleared it or muddied it further.

What IS intelligence? What IS life?

Without knowing exactly what it's, how can we say it's special?

Somehow this universe knew how to put a and b and (...) together to get life:
a. Oxygen
b. Nitrogen
c. Hydrogen
d. Carbon
e. Phosphorous
f. Sulfur
g. Calcium
....
Those elements make up >99% of most or all life.

HOW did the universe put them together so life would form?

What kind of physics made this possible? What else can this physics do?

What if life is just one expression of this physics?

I am not saying that chaos is this physics. These are just some ideas I wanted to write down. There's something there, but I'm stuck on.... What is this physics?

*************************
I wanted to share some thoughts about perlin noise. It's somewhat related to chaos.

I'm imagining a software program that starts with "atoms". These atoms have properties and persistence. Over time, they gravitate towards each other or repel and their energy levels change. Because of persistence, changes in one area tend to persist over a time. Imagine a 2-dimensional map of these atoms. Depending on the criteria you use to view them, you will see regions of atoms that take on random geometry. Whether what you see is complete and absolute noise or can be separated into regions all is reliant on those criteria you use.

For example... ever seen a random 3d landscape? Vistapro? Terragen? Each landscape map is simply a heightmap (a 2d array of values). From this table of values the 3rd dimension is created. You can identify individual hills and valleys, right? Or rivers (tricky to do without roaming algorithm) and lakes? Notice how a random 3d landscape looks less random than when you turn a TV on and fail to connect it to anything external. You should see a screen with black and white "pixels" that randomly redistribute. What you see is no really different than a random 3d landscape. Both are being given random signals. What's different is that the viewing algorithm in a 3d landscape "transforms" them to give them the illusion of recognizable geometry. The world we live in is like the viewing algorithm in random 3d landscapes. Reality is like a pair of "smart" glasses that're observing chaos.

What I'm imagining is a random viewing algorithm applied to "chaos". Maybe we're on the surface of a black hole or something weird and we're just random bits of energy. Somehow, this is all transformed into humans and planets and galaxies and plants and viruses and so on.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

Let's say they landed in a perfect stack; although not probable at all, the result still has the appearance of order. Could anyone who walked by that stack of quarters say there was no order to it? The very reason we only use probabilities rather than absolutes is because we have to account for chaos and the coincidences it distributes randomly. What I was getting at with my stupid quarter metaphor was that life itself, a completely systematic and ordered entity, is the result of a seemingly infinite series of random events. Thus order out of chaos.

Brilliant analogy. Let's see how this might change my ideas from before...

If chaos can really lead to the appearance of order, that means chaos exists independently of order and entropy. In other words, you have proven that the amount of order in the universe cannot be used to determine the amount of chaos in the universe. I believe this implies it is impossible for us to percieve chaos because there is no tangible way for us to measure chaos if it isn't measured by order.

This leads to the possibility that order is an illusion. As you said, ten coins being flipped perfectly on top of each other resembles order when it was actually formed out of disorder. Do we judge the final product by how it was formed or solely by its present characteristics? If we judge by how it was formed, it is simply re-ordered disorder, and since there was no order involved in the process of formation, the final product cannot be deemed a product of order. If we judge by present characteristics, it is only ordered until something knocks the coins down, and then it is disorder again.

Either way, order is born out of disorder, and will always fall back into disorder. So is there REALLY order? And if order is only an illusion, it would be impossible to measure something like chaos with it.

So... assuming order is an illusion, and chaos can't be measured by order, how do we know that chaos exists?

It seems to me that with your analogy you have proven to me that the only thing I KNOW about chaos is that I don't know about chaos.