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Would Man Exist Without Chaos?

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posted on May, 15 2012 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


the problem is what noone seem to assume having to give smthg subjectively to keep all alright

that is why existence revealed absolute evil life, everyone is insolent self shouting about his right to make his happiness

what happiness can any make when disgusting beasts are shouting more too while eating alive living fleshs

i said and repeat, existence is only possible by isolating objective to truth reference and freedom to individuality reference

let me give u the secret of that

infinity or infinite truth is from freedom that less its fact in meaning to preserve what is already right, while this freedom by becoming less to keep what is right as it is become also else value, freedom value
that is how truth became to exist when freedom is else value while preserving objective truth value

when u wake up as nothing to all there is, while staying constant with no regards to it, u r useless there in all terms
as nothing u cant b constant unless u become more then what u were yesterday, so u would jump eager more to serve urself from what is there to stay the nothing objective that u r but constant

it is in meaning subjectively alone being less for what is objectively right that u could become existing in truth so in positive results of constancy right since u r existing in meaning so




posted on May, 15 2012 @ 11:34 PM
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Man is within himself. Not as a literal being, but in a perception that is weaved through the handing and passing down of ideals. You cannot argue truth here. Truth is a strictly relative principle, as far as this topic is concerned. Prayer and belief in any form of God is the right of an individual, and is how man defies chaos and randomness. It is how we try to put some sort of ritual order in our lives. You cannot define man, as each one of us has the right (and ability) to perceive what man truly is, on a personal level. If there were an actual definition of man, and how he traverses his way through this chaos, then there would be no need for individual belief systems. The whole basis of any debate here is that each one of us is right. My truth will not be your's, and your's cannot be mine, that is what makes each one of us who we are. Greatness can only be achieved by striving to define who we are, and questioning the very fabric of what we are. Greatness, in my opinion, isn't being a well known philosopher, but by challenging that which is presented to us. Search for patterns in the random, then challenge those patterns. This is how we grow, and what will make humanity better for what it is. That is what Newton, Einstein, Freud, and countless others have accomplished, it is what separated them from their bretheren. There are great minds at work within this thread, and I feel I have gained a little insight into the order that you have found within your chaotic and random truths, and into my own.



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 12:31 AM
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Nice post(s).

All I know is everything is a thought. That's all I'll ever really know.

Whether everything exists outside of me or not is a subjective judgment.

(Yes, I think it exists outside me, but it's still a thought.)

You know, we base a lot of our judgments on what we know RIGHT NOW. But we know so little. We've only sampled one other planet for life, and it's still controversial (the levin viking experiment on mars). We haven't even sent a human past the moon. We see the rest of the universe as....... empty of life. What's beyond the universe? We don't know really. There's so much we don't know. We're so helpless to understand. Not any different than people from our history who struggled to understand.

Too tired to talk about all this. It's too much.

I need to go to bed anyway. It's late.

Information. Thought.
edit on 16-5-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 06:34 AM
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in abstract terms, one is inferior to whole, so inferiority is one identity
in terms of truth, truth existence is by definition anyone, so there cant b true existence unless one is superior right

from that perspective we can take a photo of the world we see now

based on ones creations, it is all about inferiority meaning to justify its superior possessions

while the truth is left behind or down

when the truth is the exclusive always up and forward, so the objective whole right too

so of course, anyone would say that truth is subjective when truth existence is denied, while it is the truth that is giving one superior right in existing too, which one turn it to ones superior possessions as gods



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 06:38 AM
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When most think of chaos they think unorganised, what they really mean is unplanned...there is a difference.

And chaos is a necessity in life in all forms....without it, we'd be pretty boring if not predictable.



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 06:59 AM
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reply to post by GrandHeretic
 


on the contrary, everything show that chaos ended to boring repetitions of only possible way to stay apparantly constant so existing

truth is what open superior ways

the relation between absolute superiority and superior individual right is the exclusive existence sense

superior individual rights side by side with absolute superiority have to over come themselves constantly, so it cant b boring forever

what is boring is what u have to do same while not u, and this is the chaotic way end that by loosing its true reference of being one sense only found out that it cant but deal with whole as one only to repeat

existence sense is due to absolute freedom, u cant b free unless it is out of what is constantly real



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 07:11 AM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


sure u do. have a good day.



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by GrandHeretic
 

Maybe I'm wearing the wrong glasses or am not right at the moment, but that's genius.



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 02:29 PM
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A thought on Mixing:

Topological mixing "means that the system will evolve over time so that any given region or open set of its phase space will eventually overlap with any other given region. This mathematical concept of "mixing" corresponds to the standard intuition, and the mixing of colored dyes or fluids is an example of a chaotic system" (Wikipedia).

If chaos reigns, all matter must be constantly mixing with the rest of what exists in the universe. If all systems and bodies are in a perpetual state of chaotic mixing, it would be safe to say that the entirety of the universe is composed of matter. There would be no intangibility within the universe. Everything could be "touched" by something else.



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 03:30 PM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


chaos is not absolute freedom

chaos mean opposite rule

if everything was left in absolute freedom rule it would b right

chaos mean governments opposed to truth or monorchies, when u put down superiority it is chaos, bc u kill the true right and abstract reference



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 

Big Bang or no, we now reside within an eternally unfolding present moment ie: between two eternities, and yet one cannot count down from an infinite series, to one, so it looks like now is forever and "time" a mere convention for the measure of apparent causation. Then, within that eternally unfolding present moment of forever now, causally, it appears that order and a rise in complexity rules, not chaos, or disorder, and so viola, we must therefore conclude that the universe and creation is friendly and supportive of our existence, or we wouldn't be here, and that the "arrow of progress" is towards increasing complexification, and I would purport increasing re-unification with source.

When we looks at the apparent hierarchy of creation, we also see a rise in conciousness, and if the various quantum paradoxes are to be resolved satisfactorily, we must accept a "monistic idealism", where consciousness, not matter, is primary, and so we ourselves, as an integral part of an eternal cosmic evolutionary process, may be thought of as consciousness, made by consciousness for consciousness to BE ever more self-consciously aware ie: God-consciousness finding it's way "back" to a "parent-child" relationship whereby we ourselves, as we truly are (not as a mere thing, but as a PERSON) represent the culminating GOAL or object ie: we are made in the image of God.

But in answer to be OP, no, we would not exist without a connection to primordial source, however "chaotic" it may appear, in hindsight. We are therefore still to this day, dependant upon source for our very existence ie: nothing fundamental has changed, except that we now exist as self aware beings which allows for this paradoxical mirroring of conscious awareness through us.

So I say thank you God, it's good to be here. I love you too!



edit on 16-5-2012 by NewAgeMan because: edited



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by absolutely
 


i could guess that chaos meaning in truth freedom is objects true realities

when any so individual freedom are focused on realizing their superior existence possessions, they must put objective rights known down as the only way to mean their constant reversed superiority, while objective facts would be left to truth freedom realisations in absolute superiority terms that noone seem able to perceive

but that cant b the only way possible for objective existence to b

while it says being the only way just for what individuals free wills are really inferior ones in abstract terms of inferiority
never willing to give to alright in truth while doing what they want alone out



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 04:01 PM
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reply to post by absolutely
 


as i said, the right equation for existence is freedom beside absolute objects in terms of superior right parallelism with absolute superiority rights

im certain that all gods know that from the start i cant know nor guess that right as a human alone nor now nor ever

they knew and know how it is the only justification of existence freedom

individual superior right motivate objects absolute superiority to be free individual rights too
while absolute superiority motivate individual freedom to stay constant superior right out

it is only freedom that exist bc only freedom is truly constant

then when realities are free so realities can b the present of true existence



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 05:39 PM
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Nicely put NewAgeMan and beautifully written. I accept that many of your points are just as valid as mine and I appreciate your angle, but allow me to respond.


Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 

Big Bang or no, we now reside within an eternally unfolding present moment ie: between two eternities, and yet one cannot count down from an infinite series, to one, so it looks like now is forever and "time" a mere convention for the measure of apparent causation.


I wouldn't call it an unfolding, but a folding. If the Big Bang holds any credibility—which in the mind of humanities greatest scientists it does—everything immediately following it would be chaotic (as I outlined in the OP). If a creator did set forth the motion of the big bang, not even he could predict the outcomes. Like the waters of the sea, everything is mixing or folding and overlapping each other.


Then, within that eternally unfolding present moment of forever now, causally, it appears that order and a rise in complexity rules, not chaos, or disorder, and so viola, we must therefore conclude that the universe and creation is friendly and supportive of our existence, or we wouldn't be here, and that the "arrow of progress" is towards increasing complexification, and I would purport increasing re-unification with source.


To you, Order appears to rule; but I don't see how that can be when everything of order is always surrounded by chaos. I also dare to say that chaos resides within every system. Can any system predict the results of chaos? No. As I showed earlier, neither can exist without the other.

The universe is not friendly or supportive of our existence, as some random chaotic event could wipe us out in seconds. The universe is also not friendly or supportive because it is indifferent. I do agree though that Life itself may be attempting to unify a whole, as it is the only thing I can see that supports and fosters order, even though it still resides in a sea of chaos.



When we looks at the apparent hierarchy of creation, we also see a rise in conciousness, and if the various quantum paradoxes are to be resolved satisfactorily, we must accept a "monistic idealism", where consciousness, not matter, is primary, and so we ourselves, as an integral part of an eternal cosmic evolutionary process, may be thought of as consciousness, made by consciousness for consciousness to BE ever more self-consciously aware ie: God-consciousness finding it's way "back" to a "parent-child" relationship whereby we ourselves, as we truly are (not as a mere thing, but as a PERSON) represent the culminating GOAL or object ie: we are made in the image of God.

How do you see a hierarchy of creation? I see nothing apparent about any hierarchy. Also, there is absolutely nothing apparent about any creation. Maybe you could elaborate.

I also don't know how consciousness is primary. I know there's consciousness in life, but outside of life? Really? Where? Please explain how consciousness can live outside a living being. If this is the case, everything about physics and neuro-science needs to be re-written. If there is anything constant in the universe, it would be chaos vs order.

If we are the goal or object of the universe—or god-consciousness to speak your language—I think it needs to question why it has such low expectations.



But in answer to be OP, no, we would not exist without a connection to primordial source, however "chaotic" it may appear, in hindsight. We are therefore still to this day, dependant upon source for our very existence ie: nothing fundamental has changed, except that we now exist as self aware beings which allows for this paradoxical mirroring of conscious awareness through us.

So I say thank you God, it's good to be here. I love you too!



I also don't understand how we are dependent on "source". The universe has existed billions and billions of years before life made its appearance on this earth. We are dependent on the unique conditions of this planet. We cannot exist outside of earth unless we bring those conditions with us. We could bring all the "source" in the universe, it still wouldn't help us exist.

Please convince me otherwise. I still cannot fathom these views.













edit on 16-5-2012 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 06:14 PM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 

I just don't think we can think of life in terms of things set apart, of this and that, here and there, even then and now. Instead, although it may appear that way, on the surface, what it REALLY is, at the deepest level, is some sort of organic, interpenetrating, cosmological unity, who's occurance isn't the result of a cumulative or capricious, random addition (chaotic), but instead is a result of an intelligent subtraction FROM the absolute formless potential ie: a downward causation, who's purpose or goal it would seem, is to have varied experience, or to gain impressions, at different levels of consciousness, from mineral or rock (least conscious), to vegetable, to animal, to human (sentient forms) (most conscious) ie: a hierarchy. In this way, it is conciousness, first descending, and then ascending, like an eternal evolutionary spiral of consciousness, which is responsible and the driving force, the arrow of causion and the first/last cause (already always, now and forever)

And in regards to a monistic idealism (consciosness is primary) vs. materialist monist (matter is primary, and consciousness an epiphenomenon of matter), from what I've been able to gather, only the former resolves with satisfaction, all the quantum paradoxes, meaning that the experiment in question (double slit or quantum eraser), including both the observed and observer, resides within a cosmic field of awareness, yet one within which absolutely nothing is missing and everything included ie: there is no escape once you're "in it" as paradoxical as that may seem (re: death). So yeah, this turns traditional neuroscience upside down, making of the human brain and nervous system as much a transmitter and reciever, as a storage unit, which, prior to choice (non-judgement?), is a non-localized, universal phenomenon (at one ment via forgiveness..?).

Additionally, I think our whole notion of time as a linear arrow of causation from past, to present to future is probably false as well, and it may even be that there is an object "at the end of time" (Eschaton) that is responsible for ordering chaos into increasing complexity, from the future or the the unmanifest domain of infinite potential, like some sort of cosmic strange attractor, so instead of a left/right arrow of time from past to present to future, it could be a downward arrow, drawing order from chaos whcih is responsible for apparent causation, instead of a newtonian billiard ball type of causation (materialist monist view). What we would have here would be an as yet undiscovered FIFTH law of thermodynamics, which would (someday) explain precisely how in the face of chaos, we have order and increasing complexity, when in truth, as the OP's pointed out, initial conditions should dictate that chaos is the norm.

If that weren't enough, consder that we live not within/on a (relatively) "tiny" sphere separated by vast amounts of space and time from the rest of the universe, but in a NON-LOCAL, HOLOGRAPHIC, universe, at the most fundamental level (see Bell's Theorem), and that evolution, although perhaps contrained to a degree within each ecological sphere, from the Galapagos Islands to the Earth itself, experiences information sharing through what's called the zero point field or the akashic field with the all-in-all, meaning that evolution on earth has NOT taken place entirely in isolation, but shares common elements with the evolution of life, everywhere. In this case, we would need to think in terms of morphic fields (see the work of Rupert Sheldrake) or of platonic ideals ie: a tree is a tree is a tree, whether here on earth or on another life-dwelling world, and a humanoid form, a humanoid (resembling us ie: bipedal, two arms, hands, eyes, etc).

What I'm talking about is a type of intelligent design, just not one by a creator who stands apart from the creation creating, like some sort of Wizard of Oz turning knobs and dials, but one who IS the creation itself, at ALL levels, from the absolute formless potential (uncaused cause) at it's very apex or highet height, to a rock, a fern, a cricket, a squirrel, to a human or sentient-humanoid form.

I don't and no one YET possess the ability to fully describe the new paradigm, but it is definitely emerging, and it turns our notions of time, space, evolution, and what is meant by conciousness on its head.

You think as a materialist monist thinks, possibly motivated for reasons involving a bias against certain spiritual traditions ie: you introduction of chaos as a "first/last" cause to replace the idea of "God", and I, on the other hand, begin with the equal and opposite bias for a creator God, but not like traditional religious people think of God as set apart from us or the creation, or as some sort of entity or creature within creation.

I am convinced however, that the worldview you hold is passing away, to be replaced by the new paradigm more akin to what I'm trying to describe, so perhaps it would be best if we both maintain an open mind free from any contempt or bias prior to investigation, which is a surefire way to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.

Best Regards,

NAM


edit on 16-5-2012 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 06:33 PM
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Information - in formation.

It (all the information which comprises the entire multiverse, whatever that may be) is always stored and nothing is lost, except that which isn't "fruitful" or formative.

How is it done?

Via a "single" (many in the one) photon of light, since to a single photon, the whole universe is touching and time and causation has ceased.

Many in the one - unity in variety.

The whole thing though is/was/will be born of INFORMATION and, thus, intelligence (ultilization of information, with awareness), from one big bang to the next, or if there's no "big crunch", stored (for future use) even as the remaining stars go out at the end of THIS universe's lifetime 100 triollion years from now, or whatever...

It's not indifferent. It has a purpose and therefore, a plan, and probably one, if I know anything about God, which, although FREEDOM (of expression) reigns (indeterminism), paradoxically, always begins with the end in mind (determinism).

And regarding OUR "condition" as human beings, as people (qualia of our inner self), I am equally convinced that there's a great cosmic joke told by us, to us (on God's behalf), at our own expense, that we just haven't gotten yet, but when we do, then, then at long last we'll be into a new age and woe to those who cannot or who refuse to laugh at their own folly!

Best Regards,

NAM


Originally posted by NewAgeMan

"Life is a Mighty Joke. He who knows this can hardly be understood by others. He who does not know it finds himself in a state of delusion. He may ponder over this problem day and night, but will find himself incapable of knowing it. Why? People take life seriously, and God lightly; whereas we must take God seriously, and take life lightly. Then, we know that we always were the same and will ever remain the same.......the Originator of this joke. This knowledge is not acheived by reasoning.
But it is the knowledge of experience."

~ Meher Baba



edit on 16-5-2012 by NewAgeMan because: edited



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 06:44 PM
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Xhaos is interesting in the matter of all things....


being one of Xhaos, is theirfore a Titan, that was once called Xhaosis....

Yet even within Xhaos their lies an order of things.... In the heart or core of such liquid of movement of time...

The law of things the ways, or formula's of numbers always fail to see past the rigid contours of time, it is the chaotic mathematical formula's that show the pan's of men dancing away with the answers from the men who ask the same questions trying to resolve their ego's with the same lawful steps in direction..


man exists without order or Xhaos.. Man is the most lost animal on the planet.....

Man has no idea who he is... Where he comes from... Or what his purpose is....







posted on May, 16 2012 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan
And in regards to a monistic idealism (consciosness is primary) vs. materialist monist (matter is primary, and consciousness an epiphenomenon of matter), from what I've been able to gather, only the former resolves with satisfaction, all the quantum paradoxes, meaning that the experiment in question (double slit or quantum eraser), including both the observed and observer, resides within a cosmic field of awareness, yet one within which absolutely nothing is missing and everything included ie: there is no escape once you're "in it" as paradoxical as that may seem (re: death). So yeah, this turns traditional neuroscience upside down, making of the human brain and nervous system as much a transmitter and reciever, as a storage unit, which, prior to choice (non-judgement?), is a non-localized, universal phenomenon (at one ment via forgiveness..?).

The reason materiallst monism (matter alone is primary and all there is) does not work (is killed dead), in light of quantum physics, is because an epiphenomenon of matter, alone, no matter how complex, is not, in and of itself, capable, ever, of collapsing the wave of probability into a measurement, which requires of course a conscioous choice to be made. But it get's "worse" (or better, depending on your POV).. since both observer and observed are entwined within the same system, we cannot distinguish the consciousness of the "observer" from the observed, which is looking back at us looking at it looking at us looking at it, ad infinitum. Therefore, the prior "condition" of mind, or self, is also non-localized, until a choice is made. Provided we then do not get lost in these choices in the form of a strong "reality filter" we remain at peace or at rest, without thought or the need of thought or of particulization or labelling. This is the experience of the great masters and forms the very heart and soul of all the great wisdom teachings down through the ages. It represents therefore something both very old AND very new.

"My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives it, but as I freely give it."

"Be still, and know that I am God."

"What is man that thou art mindful of him?"

"The kingdom of heaven is like a storekeeper, who brings forth from his storehouse (of treasure) both something old and something new." (last thing Jesus said to his desciples in one of the Gospels I forget which one).



edit on 16-5-2012 by NewAgeMan because: edit



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by absolutely
 


Good point, and i recognize your angle....yet chaos can be very liberating. Without that constant what if, life would be......meh to say the least.

Chaos in the context that we think of it is a sliding scale of what we are willing to put up with as far as chaos in small quantities.

The larger the chaos, the more we pull our hair out.....we can only absorb chaos in small doses. It is the spice of life that keeps us ever evolving.



posted on May, 16 2012 @ 10:38 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


I enjoyed reading your post and point of view. There is no question about your ability to think; and I have to admit, there is some substantial probability in your thoughts.

I do agree with a few things: I agree that there is a growing order in chaos. I like to guess that Life is attempting some Will to Order, or maybe the universe is gallantly fighting chaos and trying to put itself back together. This idea does suggest something outside of chaos, whether intelligent or not; and it represents the dreams of a hopeful soul who wishes for something better for humanity. But, like every good philosopher should do, I immediately repudiate my own thoughts and I then realize that this outlook could be my bodies instinctual way of attempting to systematize something for the purposes of being able to understand it. In my opinion, one should at least attempt be as honest with oneself as much as possible.

I didn't take any bias with me into this rabbit hole. I went in naked with my logic, senses and an open mind. All I could discover was either my language's inability to systematize what man thinks he knows about the universe, or complete chaos. I can no longer fathom the universe as some predictable system. And if mankind is snuffed out by some planetary disaster or explosion of the sun, it will be the result of a long chain of chaotic events born in the initial nano-seconds of the beginning of the universe.

I like your ideas—or rather the ideas of others you've systematized for your own understanding—of time and physics. I'll of course have to look into it if I find the time. There is precious insight there; but this chaos I've mentioned can still explain it all.



You think as a materialist monist thinks, possibly motivated for reasons involving a bias against certain spiritual traditions ie: you introduction of chaos as a "first/last" cause to replace the idea of "God", and I, on the other hand, begin with the equal and opposite bias for a creator God, but not like traditional religious people think of God as set apart from us or the creation, or as some sort of entity or creature within creation.

I am convinced however, that the worldview you hold is passing away, to be replaced by the new paradigm more akin to what I'm trying to describe, so perhaps it would be best if we both maintain an open mind free from any contempt or bias prior to investigation, which is a surefire way to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.


I do have to defend myself a bit here, and let you know that I am not a materialist monist. I am also not an atheist, not a theist, not an agnostic and definitely not a misanthrope (the name is play on Moliere's "Le Misanthrope"). I refuse to pigeon-hole myself in labels and I carry no banner I feel I must defend. This makes me uniquely free and open of mind. You have the right to label me if it helps you systematize the chaos I create in your thoughts, but I have the right to tell you these descriptions are false. I can only ever accept your ideas for what they are. In reality, to you I am only words on a screen, and I present no harm to your truths and interpretations.

And sure, maybe my world-view will go the way of the dinosaur, I can accept that. Against the ever changing powers of chaos and unpredictability, world-views—much like entire species—don't stand a chance.



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