Would Man Exist Without Chaos?

(Help me put this to rest in my head)

If the Big Bang is indeed the beginning the universe, everything that has followed it is chaos. The events immediately following the big bang would have had a sensitive dependence to initial conditions, or SDIC, more famously known as “the butterfly effect.” These small errors in the initial conditions of the universe could only ever lead to infinitely different results. This would suggest—at least in my opinion—that everything within the expansion of the universe was fostered by, and resides within, a sea of chaos.

But what about before the Big Bang, or outside it? What about before all of this chaos? Of course, no one needs to be told that all theories break down at this point, and only speculation is possible. I would guess—as a best layman can—that it expanded from a singularity or nothing at all. But this beginning would still suggest that immediately before the big bang, or outside of it, there was some form of order, maybe even the perfect order: nothing.

This leads me to a philosophical problem where I become trapped.

“The limits of my language are the limits of my mind. All I know is what I have words for.”
Ludwig Wittgenstein

Can chaos exist without order? Can order exist without chaos?

Without order, chaos wouldn’t exist, as it would have nothing of order to make chaotic. Alternatively, order wouldn’t exist as there is nothing chaotic to to show it has order.

In my opinion Man is an entity of order. He is finite and composed of organic systems. He produces systems to protect his own system from the sea of chaos around him. Language, one of his first systems, may have been an attempt to systematize the chaos of his thoughts. The building of societies may have been an attempt to systematize the chaos of population growth. Religions, and various systems of morals and laws, may have been designed to place him even further from his chaotic impulses. Most of us can probably agree: we can only define mankind in relation to his systems.

So, finally, my questions is:

Would man exist without chaos?

Furthermore, does Chaos play a more pivotal role in the inner-workings of life?

The basis of chaos is unpredictable randomness (I know that sounds oxymoronic (if that's even a word)). So in itself, chaos is merely that...chaos. It plays it's role in everyday life, and has since the big bang. Without it, there would be nothing. We all fit into some chaotic vibration that makes us what we are, along with everything else in this universe. The fact that we are, in and of itself, is tangibility in this chaos. Do I think that man would exist without chaos, no. But I do think that we exist despite chaos. It is everything, yet nothing.

Hope I didn't confuse anyone in my train of thought, but I think that is a lost cause, because I confused myself a little bit.

reply to post by Coniuratus


Yeah that makes sense.

That's what I'm struggling with "do we exist despite chaos?" Does everything exist despite Chaos?

Could there be some inherent will to order?

Everything does exist through chaos. Everything that we know to be true, or feel to be true through faith, exists because we have discovered patterns in the chaos that surrounds us. This is why there is no collective consciousness on the broad level of human existence. We all take what our individual knowledge base is, and try to put ourselves into some sort of protective bubble. It is when we try to search beyond our individual chaos, that we are left with questions to which there are no truly known answers. The possibility of some sort of will forming, and existing through that, is where our faith lies. We feel a need to try to reach beyond these barriers, and to somehow control what is around us. Life is because it is. The beauty, in the nature of it all, is truly awe inspiring. From being able to feel the wind blow through your hair, to seeing a star being born or dying, to whatever else can be experienced in this life, it all exists through chaos. So maybe "despite" is the wrong word, maybe we should say that we are truly blessed by chaos, because without it there would be nothing. I think, to tame the chaos, would be to take all of the wonderment out of existence.

Originally posted by Coniuratus
Everything does exist through chaos. Everything that we know to be true, or feel to be true through faith, exists because we have discovered patterns in the chaos that surrounds us. This is why there is no collective consciousness on the broad level of human existence. We all take what our individual knowledge base is, and try to put ourselves into some sort of protective bubble. It is when we try to search beyond our individual chaos, that we are left with questions to which there are no truly known answers. The possibility of some sort of will forming, and existing through that, is where our faith lies. We feel a need to try to reach beyond these barriers, and to somehow control what is around us. Life is because it is. The beauty, in the nature of it all, is truly awe inspiring. From being able to feel the wind blow through your hair, to seeing a star being born or dying, to whatever else can be experienced in this life, it all exists through chaos. So maybe "despite" is the wrong word, maybe we should say that we are truly blessed by chaos, because without it there would be nothing. I think, to tame the chaos, would be to take all of the wonderment out of existence.

Nicely put

I too would say we are blessed by chaos, it is very beautiful. But we also wouldn't exist without order, or some systemization of these chaotic events. There must be some force here that I'm missing, something that separates the two. Maybe order is the attempt of the universe to put itself back together.

Either way, I believe I'm doomed to remain down this rabbit hole.

I believe if everything was perfect there would be nothing.

reply to post by Lichter daraus


Agreed. Also, the implications of this are fairly profound:

- Matter couldn't exist without chaos.
- Chaos is within us and around us at all times.
- all systems are finite and doomed to have a life-span from the moment it starts existing. This is why all empirical evidence and axioms have a shelf-life, they simply cannot withstand the infinite forces of chaos.
- Before language, thought would have been chaotic. It still remains chaotic despite our attempt to systematize it.
- All ideas, concepts and systems—God, society, language, the economy—are merely attempts to systematize the unsystematizable (

Originally posted by Lichter daraus
I believe if everything was perfect there would be nothing.

The very notion of perfection very closely parallels the idea of anti-gravity. That is, in order for perfection, that of which is perfect must exist free of influence because any said influence would change or alter any state of perfection. As well, the said perfection would also act independent of surrounding chaos, in turn, removing the notion of having the ability to influence anything outside of this perfection. If this wasn't so, the loss of any sustenance, which becomes the acting agent results in changing any said state of perfection. All of which seemingly contradicts plausibility of perfection.

As well, there is an entire equilibrium, mass, time, and movement aspect that is to be addressed, that quickly defends any stance that suggest that perfection is indeed not obtainable nor ever in existence.

So after this ramblings...

Yes, I agree 100% with the notion that nothing would exist if everything was perfect. Perfection does not allow for existence, considering the elimation of acting bodies with the ability to influence one another. Which goes to remove such aspects as dualism, polarity, movement, expansion, fluidity, and countless others from the universe.

I've always pondered the idea, that if everything was perfect... the universe would be one giant cuboctahedron crystal.

btw, I love the very premise behind this thread and the question... it's a good one.

Interestingly enough, I just purchased the domain www .kos 2 order. com, and KOS stands for Knowledge Of Self. Which will have the mission statement of:

From the Knowledge of Self we obtain the ability to find order from chaos into our understandings of our role in the universe. Further allowing for the truths of our existence as being the basis in which we govern our relationships with one another and the universe alike. Bringing awareness of the governing patterns of creation and time, in order to promote decisions and/or actions that are conducive towards the success and prosperity of humanity.

The site is still in construction, and will most likely be launched sometime around the end of the month.

To answer the question of the OP, no... man would not exist without chaos. For it is chaos that seemingly allows creation continuum. Although that is not to suggest ruling out the plausibility of the driving force behind expansion and chaos dissipating into matter.

ah, the rabbit hole.... I want out!

It is said that the singularity before the universe came into being is as organized as things can get. Then came the state of infinite probabilities as choices and alternate realities started springing up. And that's just the cosmos. Sentient beings complicate chaos even more. It's almost enough to drive one mad.
All of that is just my own view.

Interesting topic, the relationship between humans and chaos is also something I've also spent a lot of time thinking about.

Human societies tend to go against chaos, and bring order and organization to the world around them. However, individual humans seek personal liberty and freedom from the restraints of order. I equate the pursuit of liberty and freedom as the pursuit of chaos, since if all humans acted completely unrestrained it would be total chaos.

Would man exist without chaos?

Not man as we know it. Not life as we know it. Life is something that we know has a definite beginning and an end, that runs on disposable energy. The reason why living things have to die is because of the degeneration of their bodies, or in other words, everyone eventually loses the battle to chaos.

Let's think for a moment of a man's life as a microcosm for the life of our universe. A man is born out of chaos, spends life fighting chaos through order, and dies into chaos. Our universe was born out of the chaos of the Big Bang, but the universe now shows much more semblance of order than it did during the Big Bang with planets, solar systems, stars, and galaxies.

Without chaos, the universe as we know it never would have been born. Without chaos, life as we know it never begins. Our universe would be locked in its pre-Big Bang state, and we would be locked in our pre-life states.

If there was no chaos and there was perfect order, anything that is alive would be immortal because there would be no chaos to degenerate their living bodies.

Although, as you state, that man is on some eternal quest to find order in the chaos, man must not forget that we are made completely of chaos. Everything that is exists through random particles vibrating at a harmonious frequency, in the same plane of existence. We are all mere vibrations, that harmonize in such a manner, that chaos tends toward a tangibility in a solidarity that makes everything exist.

This is seen in every aspect of our nature, and in the universe as a whole. Scientists measure vibrations from stars, and planets, to determine their makeup and how their vibrations effect their surroundings. Our mere existence is a fluke...a blasphemy of physics, if you will. The fact that everything reproduces, and resurrects itself, is proof the chaos that makes everything up is not random. I know that is an oxymoron. The definition of chaos is randomness. The lack of randomness in chaos, is proof that there is some element at play, that has yet to be discovered. I don't think the human race will ever truly know what the cosmic glue holding this whole thing together is made of, or where it comes from.

...I guess the answer really is 42.

Sorry, again, if I'm not making any sense.

Now the question.

What is the purpose of our existence?

Originally posted by EL1A5
Now the question.

What is the purpose of our existence?

To add; why just stop at the conclusion that we were a series of chemical reactions that "randomly" happened once upon a time? Think about the feats we have accomplished. The many great men who were able to interpret the world much differently than the average joe.
Totally irrelevant to the main topic I apologize. I just don't think our existence should be put a long the lines of chaos.

I don't think that you are very far off base from the main topic. What springs forth from the consciousness of these great minds, that have accomplished great things in this life, is harnessing the chaos and formulating it (in leaps and bounds) to change the vibrations within the chaos itself. The "cosmic glue," that I spoke of in my last post, is what man must strive to find. I think that the secrets of life, itself, are alive and well within. The ideals of an omnipotent God, is our lack of knowledge in understanding the flux and re-flux, it is where our faith lies. I am no stranger to believing that there are supreme beings that understand these principles fully. Because energy can neither be created or destroyed, I think that we vibrate at a different frequency when we pass from this life to the next. It is the proverbial chicken or the egg conundrum that we face as ignorant masses of particles, as to which God(s) either created the universe or was/were created from it. Our consciousness, and ability to understand what goes on around us is a feat that humanity will never fully grasp.

The more I ramble, the more I begin to think that there is no chaos, just randomness. It is almost as if there were a settling of chaos into order. The more time that progresses, the more "settled" this chaos becomes. We are just left with randomness. The deeper the search for order in the chaos, the closer we will come to see the universe for what it truly is: Beautiful and unpredictable randomness. Til then, all we can do is marvel at what is.

Nice points.

I guess we can all agree that us and all matter wouldn't exist without chaos; and, as some sort of duality, we couldn't exist without order. I also like to think that there is some unexplained "will to order", or some unexplained force at play within chaos; but I can only find this force in one thing—Life. Life seems to be the only force consistently attempting to put order to chaos.

It's probable that Life, like everything else, is a result of a long chain of chaotic events and chance, and thus bound by chaos. If Life was conceived by some devine creator, it would have had to existed before the Big Bang, as everything following would have been the result of chaos. But if we accept prevailing cosmological theories of the beginning of the universe, we'd find it highly unlikely that Life existed before the Big Bang. And, if it is probable that we both exist within and were fostered within a sea of chaos, we can therefore rationally say that there is no reason for us being here; we are one of many unpredictable bi-products of complete chaos; and there can be no purpose to our existence unless we bestow it upon ourselves.

This leads to even more questions both ethical and metaphysical:

Does man choose Order or Chaos? Or does he choose the conflict between the two?

Is this conflict between Chaos and Order the very foundation of all that exists?

If everything is bound by chaos, can concepts such as "truth" exist outside of the human mind?

Could mankind accept that he, as a species, has no purpose?

Thank you for your time and insight.

Originally posted by EL1A5

Originally posted by EL1A5
Now the question.

What is the purpose of our existence?

To add; why just stop at the conclusion that we were a series of chemical reactions that "randomly" happened once upon a time? Think about the feats we have accomplished. The many great men who were able to interpret the world much differently than the average joe.
Totally irrelevant to the main topic I apologize. I just don't think our existence should be put a long the lines of chaos.

Why not? It is utterly beautiful and profound that we could be the result of a strange coincidence. Also: why should we lie to ourselves?

And to answer your question: There is no purpose to our existence until we bestow it upon ourselves. That sounds freeing if you ask me. The other implications will need more time and thought.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


u say man and exist in this particular forum but then mention no creation from a god. even if from a big bang u somehow folded into existence through chaos, your musing chaotic and typing creation as such to be man. sad truly.

Originally posted by Ausar
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

u say man and exist in this particular forum but then mention no creation from a god. even if from a big bang u somehow folded into existence through chaos, your musing chaotic and typing creation as such to be man. sad truly.

Sorry Ausar,

There is not a single shred of evidence to support the existence of god. In the spirit of the scientific method, I will have to suspend judgement on the existence of a god until evidence proves otherwise. I cannot pray to hearsay and anecdote without being sure that it's not done in complete and utter vanity. That would be irrational.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


your supposed intellect is the bane of your wisdoms adolescent maturity. the very means in which u describe or attribute "god" precludes that you belief in something you have yet to say science has quantified. all the same i will accept u as you are in this discourse. the rationality of the word existence and the practice of projection through prayer is proof, doubt in light of the perception of hearsay and accepted as vanity is proof. these are human concepts that another human can relate to, and as such i agree to disagree that u cannot relate on god and that is not the subject; yet the big bang is nonrelative to any being except as theory; we can agree, in differed perspectives. chaos is not necessary for me to create a woman in this fashion and for her to then fashion a man; since that is so. in your perspective of events as assumed from your replies and initial post im going to state you need to clarify who man is.

man has realized how special man is in scriptures related my spiritual perspective and your supposed exoteric one. mathematically it would be heresy to say man is a son of himself thats not math thats spiritual heresay. spiritually it would be a defilement to equate to numbers the self expression of man to randomness: especially regarding the nuances of social man like the meme jesus in this same spiritual implication.

Originally posted by Ausar
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

your supposed intellect is the bane of your wisdoms adolescent maturity. the very means in which u describe or attribute "god" precludes that you belief in something you have yet to say science has quantified. all the same i will accept u as you are in this discourse. the rationality of the word existence and the practice of projection through prayer is proof, doubt in light of the perception of hearsay and accepted as vanity is proof. these are human concepts that another human can relate to, and as such i agree to disagree that u cannot relate on god and that is not the subject; yet the big bang is nonrelative to any being except as theory; we can agree, in differed perspectives. chaos is not necessary for me to create a woman in this fashion and for her to then fashion a man; since that is so. in your perspective of events as assumed from your replies and initial post im going to state you need to clarify who man is.

man has realized how special man is in scriptures related my spiritual perspective and your supposed exoteric one. mathematically it would be heresy to say man is a son of himself thats not math thats spiritual heresay. spiritually it would be a defilement to equate to numbers the self expression of man to randomness: especially regarding the nuances of social man like the meme jesus in this same spiritual implication.

I am fully aware I am limited by my language. I don't need your opinions to confirm this. I also don't "belief in something [I] have yet to say science has quantified", I merely hope there is more to our existence. There is a difference between hoping and believing—hope is somewhat less disappointing.

Prayer, heresy and belief is a human concept, something that I've shown couldn't exist outside of mankind, unless it too was somehow fostered in chaos. Man isn't special, he thinks he is special. This ability to lie to himself and to believe his own lies is man's great ability. It's all an attempt to put order to chaos. And in the end, it will all end up being vanity.

I don't need to define "man". I totally endorse the subtlety of interpretation.