Naude: There are the problems outside which engender the problems inside. Not being able to deal with either, or both, we create the hope of some other, some third state, which we call God.
Krishnamurti: Yes, an outside agency.
Naude: An outside agency which will be the consolation, the final solution. But it is also a fact that there are things which are really
outer problems: the roof leaks, the sky is full of pollution,
the rivers are drying up, there are such problems. And there are wars - they are visible outer problems. There are also problems which we think to be
inner problems, our secret and closed longings, fears and worries.
Naude: There is the world, and there is man's reaction to it, man's living in it. And so there are these two entities - at least in a
practical sort of way we can say there are. And so probably the
trying to solve practical problems overflows into the inner state of man and engenders problems there.
Krishnamurti: That means we are still keeping the outer and the inner as two separate movements.
Naude: Yes, we are. We do.
Krishnamurti: And I feel that is a totally wrong approach. The roof does leak and the world is overpopulated, there is pollution, there are
wars, there is every kind of mischief going on. And not
being able to solve that we turn inward; not being able to solve the inward issues we turn to something outer, still further away from all this.
Whereas if we could treat the whole of this existence as
one unitary movement, then perhaps we would be able to solve all these problems intelligently and reasonably and in order.
Naude: Yes. It seems that is what you speak about. Would you mind telling us how these three problems are really one thing?
Krishnamurti: I am coming to that, I am coming to it. The world outside of me is created by me - not the trees, not the clouds, the bees and
the beauty of the landscape - but human existence in
relationship, which is called society, that is created by you and by me. So the world is me and I am the world. I think that is the first thing that
must be established: not as an intellectual or an abstract
fact, but in actual feeling, in actual realization. This is a fact, not a supposition, not an intellectual concept, but it is a fact that the world is
me and I am the world. The world being the society in
which I live, with its culture, morality, inequality, all the chaos that is going on in society, that is myself in action. And the culture is what I
have created and what I am caught in. I think that is an
irrevocable and an absolute fact.
Naude: Yes. How is it that people don't see this enough? We have politicians, we have ecologists, we have economists, we have soldiers all
trying to solve the outside problems simply as outer problems.
Krishnamurti: Probably because of a lack of the right kind of education: specialization, the desire to conquer and go to the moon and play
golf there, and so on and so on! We always want to alter
the outer hoping thereby to change the inner. "Create the right environment" - the communists have said it a hundred times – "then the human mind
will change according to that."
Naude: That is what they say. In fact, every great university, with all its departments, with all its specialists, one could almost say that
these great universities are founded and built on the belief
that the world can be changed by a certain amount of specialized knowledge in different departments.
Krishnamurti: Yes. I think we miss this basic thing, which is: the world is me and I am the world. I think that feeling, not as an idea, that
feeling brings a totally different way of looking at this
Naude: It is an enormous revolution. To see the problem as one problem, the problem of man and not the problem of his environment, that is an
enormous step, which people will not take.
Krishnamurti: People won't take any step. They are used to this outward organization and disregard totally what is happening inwardly. So
when one realizes that the world is me and I am the
world, then my action is not separative, is not the individual opposed to the community; nor the importance of the individual and his salvation. When
one realizes that the world is me and I am
the world, then whatever action takes place, whatever change takes place, that will change the whole of the consciousness of man.