The Rise Of Socialism And How Capitalism Ran Out Of Other Peoples Money.

Originally posted by boncho
Capitalism today is not actual capitalism. There is nothing in capitalist ideology that suggests you should forgive debt and bail out failed institutions.

You about cover it right there. When people show me a functional capitalist system running right now, it'll make for a great debate! I believe I saw the last of America's capitalist system as a teenager and Reagan's administration moved to Daddy Bush. Politically, that is the moment in my mind.

I'd also note to no one in particular that while Hitler was evil and the Khmer Rouge were screaming maniacs in good company with many others like them around the world since, on smaller scales....no one holds a candle in modern living history to the Initial leaders of the Communist Revolutions. That wold have been when the Socialism was at it's purist.

Mao's corner called it the Cultural Revolution and I understand the Russians just called it the purges. 10's of million's of people were murdered by their own nations in the effort to see this bloody Utopian idea come to fruition. Socialism was going to function and people were going to like it, even if it took full blown police empires to sustain it and it killed them. Estimates at the link below seem pretty heavily documented for 20 Million people under Uncle Joe and roughly 40 Million people under Chairman Mao and his Infernal little red book.

If the system you have in mind is a variant from those pure roots...(and those are the men who basically brought life to the concepts of those before them..they DO define this in the modern world, IMO) I'd love to hear your variation. In something more than vague terms of course....as it really would be interesting to hear a way someone thought they could make the idea work without degenerating into the cess pool every nation who've tried it before, eventually have (except for 1.....China morphed just right and seems to thrive, but then China was doing this when modern Europe wasn't even in existence as such...))

Very detailed break downs for major death tolls over the 20th Century

Nope! OP, Socialism spends other people's money as well. Many of government policies from Europe to the US are utilizing Socialist measures to shore-up the financial system and to desperately tie-up loose ends regarding their own balance sheets. Was those measures necessary or unnecessary? The jury is out. There are other policies that have socialist undertones like welfare or even unemployment insurance.

As I see it, Capitalism is supply and demand, allowing the market to decide fiscal policy such as spending or thrift, and when during difficult times a distressed business either sinks on swims. Not a few government bureaucrats making the decisions or a politburo. It will not work, and history is a fine example of that. Love it or hate it, but Capitalism is the only way people have a chance at upward mobility, wealth, and personal property. How one tinkers with the model is left for interpretation, but just as long as the principles and foundation remain intact. Socialism is just a more refined and academically friendly take on Communism. As always, one thing leads to another. When there is no more to be taken from the well-off people, no more corporations to nationalize, and so on and so forth. The benevolent masters of government will take whatever they can from whomever they want to keep the system going and their grasp on power intact. That is how I see it.

Perhaps, some of my interpretations are a little off? I can recall vivid images of food lines from the Soviet Union days, decrepit block apartments, millions dieing in Mao's China and the Soviet Union when economic policies were initiated with an iron-fist, and rampant corruption by those tasked with managing the system. To cut a long story short, I would much rather eat a crap sandwich a few times than live in a world of crap 24/7 and 365 days a year. That is how I see Communism *ahem* I mean Socialism. OP, thanks but no thanks, Comrade!

Originally posted by Germanicus

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by Germanicus

 

I'll try one more time. I said CRONY capitalism and I'm not all that sure you understand that. It doesn't matter what ism you put on it, we don't "own" the money. If the money belonged to the taxpayer, taking said money from us (if we protested) would require physical assault. But they've convinced us to keep our money in their banks and report every last cent of our income to the government so they can tax it and TAKE it to their satisfaction. And when that isn't enough to pay their bills, they simply print more money and it works the same as a pickpocket taking handfuls of cash out of your pocket without you even noticing. That means it really isn't yours.

Nationalizing the oil industry wouldn't help (not that it'll happen anyway) because all governments, regardless of the handle you put on them, are in bed with their corporate sponsors and they wouldn't turn on their best buds like that. They'd just put those buds over whatever agency you think might save our bacon and we'd still be the B in the BLT sandwich.

If Fidel Castro was as defeatist as you Cuba would still have fat capitalist pigs like Batista running things. You talk in the realities of Capitalism. They dont apply to me. I assume you are American because Nationalization is no longer some crazy fantasy in Europe. Austerity makes people open to new idea's. America will come around when Austerity hits hard. American's will be begging for socialism when Austerity is felt.

And I understand the fiat money system. In my opinion though,if I work for money,it is mine. My money. I own it. I can spend it. And they dont have to assault me to take my money,they just tax me and then give my money to the IMF.

Are you insane??? You say that in your opinion the money you work for is yours, yet you espouse SOCIALISM???

Dude, you better get a quick reality check as to what socialism is... because your opinion as stated above is CAPITALISM, true capitalism as the US was founded on, not the modern day socialist republic that America has become...

Yes you heard that right, the US has been a socialist republic ever since the new deal and has become increasingly more so since.

It is the socialism that has creeped into the American system of government that has been destroying us, not the capitalism...

You need to wake up, the government CANNOT solve any problem, they only take a problem and make it worse.

The only way to solve the problems is to give true individual liberty, promote small business and the corporations out of business. It takes localized grass roots support of small business to do so....

Jaden

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

EINSTEIN was a Socialist

Keep in mind, people, Socialism can take MANY forms/flavors. Some are tyrannical, but not all (or even most). Do your homework and stop regurgitating the mainstream right-wing propaganda. Most of you didn't even know what Socialism was until a few years ago when the right-wing really started attacking it... and most of you still don't know what it is.

Personally, I'm in favor of Social Democracy within the system and different forms of Anarcho-Socialism without the system.

Once again, do your homework or STFU. I've done mine, and you cannot put a happy face on Capitalism unless you compare it to feudalism/mercantilism that it replaced. Though, I think most who support Capitalism don't even know what Adam Smith wrote about it. I recommend you re-read his writings as well... even HE calls for humane regulation and redistribution, as there are natural injustices within a strong Capitalist system.

From my point of view Jesus and Buddha are also socialists. You can't be from my point of view a christian beliving what Jesus said and be a capitalist. They are philosophies that are oppesed each other. If you say you are a capitalistic christian then from my point of view you do not understand what being a christian means. But I can be wrong. What did the bible say again about rich people? And I do not say the bible is true. Im just pointing out the hypocracy. Most poleticians would be labeled false prohets if you go by the bible. I find that hilarious.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

And Hitler was fighting against these Imperialist Bankers. If Germany had won the world would be a better place.

reply to post by Germanicus

 

That quote of yours says all I need to know. I didn't think there was anyone left in the world that wished Hitler had won the war. I guess there still are. I thought that statements like yours were actually considered a crime in Europe.
Please don't bother to respond to me, as it would be a waste of your time and mine. I have no desire to talk to someone that believes Hitler was great.

Hitler was a crazy person. We create people like him every day in our systems. The fact is we do not know if it would be better or not if Hitler had won and the historical aftermath. You do not know what would have happen instead and the choice every single person would have made. What if long exposure to the insanety would have evolve the society to become extreamly peaceful with no tolerance for violence and responsability for what you create? Just because you belive the aftermath of Hitler would have been bad do not mean something good could come out of it. Or we might live in an orvelian 1984 scenario. Ohh wait we allmost have that society anyway. The US destroyed the Nazi and became almost the same thing 60 years later. You gotta love the irony.

Originally posted by HEYJOSE
Just great, replace one oppressive form of pyramidal thievery with another! "There is NO Government like NO GOVERNMENT"- Socialism is fun until the sociopaths get to run things, then EVERYBODY INTO THE GULAG!

Yes the power pyramid will always fail. It is designed to fail. Parasitism do not work because it destroys what it is parasiting on. That is why you need a socialist unparasitic system where all contibute and everybody get their appropiate share according to contribution and rentparasitism is not allowed. Money should not make people money. If it does then all money go to the top in the end and the whole system collapses. Because money making money gives the people with money the possibility to manipulate the whole system. And monopoly is the most profitable way to make money.

Originally posted by OwenandNoelle
My biggest concern about Socialism --- and please correct me if I’m wrong. But wouldn’t that mean giving the our politicians...the same people who continually lie and erode our freedoms...even more power?

In other words...we’d be giving a bunch of highly paid thieves (our puppet politicians) the few resources and property that we have left and we’re then supposed to have faith that the government will redistribute it amongst all of us fairly?

That is why you need to have direct democracy where things are decided on the most local level and not centralized. In true socialistic democrazy there will be no poleticans. If there is then it is not what it should be. The power pyramid is faulty. All power should come from the people.

Here's what I know:

Socialism + comrade = Soviet Russia. Soviet Russia where Stalin had more people killed than Hitler did.

reply to post by Masterjaden

Are you insane??? You say that in your opinion the money you work for is yours, yet you espouse SOCIALISM???

No I am not insane.

Do you think people have no money under a socialist system? I dont think you understand socialism.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Originally posted by OwenandNoelle
My biggest concern about Socialism --- and please correct me if I’m wrong. But wouldn’t that mean giving the our politicians...the same people who continually lie and erode our freedoms...even more power?

In other words...we’d be giving a bunch of highly paid thieves (our puppet politicians) the few resources and property that we have left and we’re then supposed to have faith that the government will redistribute it amongst all of us fairly?

That is why you need to have direct democracy where things are decided on the most local level and not centralized. In true socialistic democrazy there will be no poleticans. If there is then it is not what it should be. The power pyramid is faulty. All power should come from the people.

You are killing it.

Thanks for adding to the thread hey. I liked reading your posts. I especially like what you said in this one. All power should come from the people.

Originally posted by Germanicus
The Socialist is here to give it,not to take it.

Yeah, right.

Tell that to the Former East Germans. They just loooovvved Socialism.

Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by Germanicus
The Socialist is here to give it,not to take it.

Yeah, right.

Tell that to the Former East Germans. They just loooovvved Socialism.

I stole that quote from The Rats Of Tobruk.

And Im saying that the new breed of socialist is not some passive limp wristed liberal. We will go on the offensive.

Originally posted by Germanicus
And Im saying that the new breed of socialist is not some passive limp wristed liberal. We will go on the offensive.

I bet. Work camps, gulags, executions of those that are committing crimes against the State.

Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by Germanicus
And Im saying that the new breed of socialist is not some passive limp wristed liberal. We will go on the offensive.

I bet. Work camps, gulags, executions of those that are committing crimes against the State.

Maybe we should do some cleansing first. Get it out of the way and make sure everyone is pulling in the same direction

I mean by Nationalizing the Oil industry and stuff like that.

And do you really think socialists would lock up as many people as the capitalists?

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
Here's what I know:

Socialism + comrade = Soviet Russia. Soviet Russia where Stalin had more people killed than Hitler did.

The power pyramid again with just words that they are for the people.

Originally posted by Germanicus
Maybe we should do some cleansing first. Get it out of the way and make sure everyone is pulling in the same direction

I mean by Nationalizing the Oil industry and stuff like that.

And do you really think socialists would lock up as many people as the capitalists?

Nationalizing the Oil Industry. Yep, get that-there Big Oil Money in the hands of The People!

Do I think that socialists would lock up as many people as capitalists? Oh, yes, you bet your ass I do.

Secret police. The knock in the middle of the night. People being "disappeared". All the things that happen in the good little world of the Socialist. All in the name of The People.

Seriously, Socialist/Communists refuse to spend anytime thinking about how people are; they approach the world saying this is how the people ought to be, how do we change them?

And boy when you start thinking like that Gulags and political executions become an easy step to take...for the betterment of all, of course.

www.liveleak.com...

Saw this on the Veterans Against Occupy Wall Street Facebook page this morning, and I thought you all would enjoy this video of a former resident of Soviet Russia schooling an Occutard on the downfalls of Communism and Socialism, why Capitalism is good, and helping him understand that Israel is the bullied, not the bully in the Middle East.

Originally posted by Germanicus

Originally posted by HEYJOSE
Just great, replace one oppressive form of pyramidal thievery with another! "There is NO Government like NO GOVERNMENT"- Socialism is fun until the sociopaths get to run things, then EVERYBODY INTO THE GULAG!

So what you are saying is that you are a 'libertarian socialist'?

Thats good to hear comrade.

I didn't say I was either...you obviously assumed...can we start to think for ourselves? Why must we always label people? WHY? BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN PROGRAMMED!

Originally posted by HEYJOSE

Originally posted by Germanicus

Originally posted by HEYJOSE
Just great, replace one oppressive form of pyramidal thievery with another! "There is NO Government like NO GOVERNMENT"- Socialism is fun until the sociopaths get to run things, then EVERYBODY INTO THE GULAG!

So what you are saying is that you are a 'libertarian socialist'?

Thats good to hear comrade.

I didn't say I was either...you obviously assumed...can we start to think for ourselves? Why must we always label people? WHY? BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN PROGRAMMED!

i take you for an anarchist. Libertarian Socialism is 'anarchy'.

What kind of revolucion are you after comrade?

And no I have not been programmed. Im just messing with you comrade.

Again,what kind of "revolucion" are you after?

PostScript- Please dont yell comrade.

edit- and all this WE'VE BEEN PROGRAMMED! stuff is very uninspired. Never heard before a million times. Maybe you need a reboot.

Well it's May 14th and the socialists have scored a spectacular victory in Germany, so Germanicus, I tip my hat (balaclava) to you.


Today is also Che Guevarra's birthday, Happy birthday Comandante!

Originally posted by Germanicus

Originally posted by HEYJOSE

Originally posted by Germanicus

Originally posted by HEYJOSE
Just great, replace one oppressive form of pyramidal thievery with another! "There is NO Government like NO GOVERNMENT"- Socialism is fun until the sociopaths get to run things, then EVERYBODY INTO THE GULAG!

So what you are saying is that you are a 'libertarian socialist'?

Thats good to hear comrade.

I didn't say I was either...you obviously assumed...can we start to think for ourselves? Why must we always label people? WHY? BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN PROGRAMMED!

i take you for an anarchist. Libertarian Socialism is 'anarchy'.

What kind of revolucion are you after comrade?

And no I have not been programmed. Im just messing with you comrade.

Again,what kind of "revolucion" are you after?

PostScript- Please dont yell comrade.

edit- and all this WE'VE BEEN PROGRAMMED! stuff is very uninspired. Never heard before a million times. Maybe you need a reboot.

edit on 13-5-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)

The revolution that I am after is a peaceful one where at the end of it there is equity. No one should be homeless or hungry or thirsty or without medical care, these are basic human rights. If I had a magic wand, all wars and violence would end and nuclear (Nookler if your a George Bush Jr. fan) weapons would be removed from the face of the planet. Sorry didn't mean to y ell! Peace to you Tovarich.