Where were all those who were healed, and those who had seen miracles?

Originally posted by isaac7777
I keep seeing you say the same thing over and over again. Why would they be afraid of death, if he could resurrect them? Death wasnt scary to them, not as much as how* they died. The romans mastered the art of death and torture. Do you know what its like to be whipped by a cat of nine tails? Or hung on a cross? Fear is the biggest motivator and influence in the world, right behind love.

So you suspect they didn't think their god could protect them from that? Besides, the disciples weren't on trial. Why couldn't they speak up for him? Did the people not have a voice?

Originally posted by boncho

Originally posted by chr0naut

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Hydroman

Now, my question is, where were all these people during his trial and crucifixion? Why did they not put a stop to it? It doesn't make any sense. You would think that those thousands of people that saw him work in the power of god would take up for him, or at least come forth and give their testimony. Not a single one did?

 

I mentioned this in another thread, what is more surprising is the lack of documentation. The lack of a "historical Jesus" record, so-to-speak.

For a public figure that supposedly had followers and was actively campaigning, it's hard to find much outside of biblical text.

There is significant and considerable documentation. Jesus is a more historically attested person than Alexander the Great.

Do a little research.

Sorry Chr0n, I'll refer you to this post.

I would like historical accounts that were written in his lifetime. If you can point me in the direction of one it would be appreciated. And if there is a vast amount of material, that should not be hard to do.

Disclaimer: Religious texts are not historical accounts.

Addressed in this post.

edit on 8-5-2012 by boncho because: (no reason given)

OK, yes I understand, but Jesus lifetime on Earth was quite short, so the time-frame for such documentation is short.

Firstly, there may have been significant documentation from the time but, if it was housed in the city of Jerusalem, it is likely that it was destroyed in one of the purges/sackings/overthrowings that Jerusalem is beset with throughout history. In fact it is believed that there is a now lost document, called the "Q Document" that the gospels of Mark and Matthew are based from. This would show that such additional texts existed but are now lost to us.

Archeologically, in 1961, a block of limestone inscribed “Pontius Pilate prefect of Judea” was discovered. Prior to that some said that Pontius Pilate was mythical. Wikipedia - Pilate Stone

Then in 1990, an ossuary was found with the inscription of the High Priest, Caiaphas. He also was apparently believed to be mythical until the evidence proved his existence. Wikipedia - Caiaphas Ossuary

These two finds confirm parts of the gospel accounts, but also there are several documentary evidences from the generation alive at the time of Christ and shortly thereafter. This is a reasonable summary of those.

Remember that an "AD" year is counted from Jesus birth and Jesus was crucified at 33 so you need to subtract 33 from the AD number to get the years after His death.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by chr0naut
The trial was illegal and the part before the Sanhedrin was done late at night.

Who was cheering for Barabas?

Jesus was "tried" by the Sanhedrin council which had the right to try, and convict Jewish nationals, but had no power to carry out any punishment as that was taken from them by the Romans (due to previous attempts at rebellion). They took their findings to the Roman governor, Pilate, to get the death sentence enacted upon Jesus.

Pilot didn't "try" Jesus, he questioned Him personally, then had Him flogged and tried to pass him off onto Herod, who returned Jesus to Pilate. Pilate then tried to get Him released on compassionate grounds. Instead, the murderer Barabbas was released at the insistence of the crowd and Pilate "washed his hands" ceremonially to absolve himself of complicity in what he regarded as an unjust act.

Jesus wasn't a Roman citizen and, as such, had NO rights under Roman Law. A Roman trial was never considered.

reply to post by Hydroman


They didn't have the "interwebz" back then, so news didn't travel quite as quickly as it does today and "trials" didn't take months, or even days. It was within the hour that he was "arrested" and there were no motor vehicles or air travel for people to congregate quickly to come to his defense. Think of it as an Amish community, only really large and spread out. By the time they heard about it (those he healed and performed miracles for), he was already on the cross with a spear in his side.

Originally posted by Hydroman
In the N.T., there are many stories about Jesus performing miracles. He raised people from the dead, he healed diseases, he healed the maimed and cripple, he changed water to wine, he multiplied fish and bread to feed thousands, he walked on water, he calmed seas, god even told many people verbally that this was his son in whom he was well pleased, he did so many things to show his power and thousands of people witnessed it.

Now, my question is, where were all these people during his trial and crucifixion? Why did they not put a stop to it? It doesn't make any sense. You would think that those thousands of people that saw him work in the power of god would take up for him, or at least come forth and give their testimony. Not a single one did?

Sure it makes sense, because people are the exact same way today. Just try pulling a person out of a burning car these days, tomorrow you'll get sued because you broke one of their ribs trying to save them. No good deed goes unpunished. All those healed people were probably off somewhere getting tanked or hiring prostitutes. That's human nature for you.

When it came down to it even the disciples didn't truly believe in Jesus. When he was crucified they threw their hands up in the air and said "well that's it, game over." Just like everyone else he had touched, they heard what he told them but they figured he just had some crazy magic skills or something rather than being truly divine. It wasn't until he returned after death that they finally accepted that he was indeed everything he had said that he was. This revelation transformed them, they went out to share his story even though they were tortured and even killed for it.

reply to post by Hydroman


No, the people did not have a voice. It was in ancient Rome, not the present day US, or present day anywhere else. There was no media, no lawyers, no internet, no mass transit, no way to travel quickly from one end of the empire to the other. The news would have been spread by word of mouth by those who went to spread it and since it was such a "major" occurance, the people who knew about it stayed there to see how it played out, they didn't run and tell their neighbor so their neighbor could spread it to his neighbor and so on, they were in the thick of it and it happened rather quickly.
If something major was happening across town from you and you didn't hear about it on the TV, the internet, a cellphone or even a house phone, how would you know about it? Word of mouth may get it to you within a day or two, but not within an hour or two without the technology we have today.

It's a great story that is why. Oh no the seed has been planted I see. That's how I started off to by questioning these crazy things the "happened a long long long time ago, that you have to believe really happened. I would believe in Atlantis before religion. I believe in the Sun and the Universe.

reply to post by Hydroman


Link to the test of a sermon titled GolGotha.

He said of His own life, "No man takes it from me—I lay it down of myself."

Stopping this from happening would have negated his purpose and doomed Man.

Believe as you wish but you are asking the right questions.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by Hydroman

 

Link to the test of a sermon titled GolGotha.

He said of His own life, "No man takes it from me—I lay it down of myself."

Stopping this from happening would have negated his purpose and doomed Man.

Believe as you wish but you are asking the right questions.

I love this one! You can't fire me, because I quit!

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by micmerci
What was wrong with them is that they were witnessing the "Messiah" getting beat and hung on a cross and not doing anything about it. That certainly would appear as a failure if you ask me. I think they were afraid of the Romans who were a bit brutal in their punishment techniques. And as for Jesus resurrecting, don't you think that would remove the doubt from their minds?

No sir! I'm talking about BEFORE he was beaten. I'm talking about the trial. Where were these people during that time? Why didn't they speak out? Remember, they chose to free Barabas, not Jesus.

Why would the resurrection remove doubt from their minds when they saw him resurrect people already?

I suggest if you REALLY DO want to know these things, it would be best for you to CONSIDER THE SOURCE. Jesus said that Satan comes and plucks out the seeds sown in our hearts by God when we attain the seed from the WAYSIDE. You are looking to a source where many misunderstandings are. If this subject were anything other than Christianity, people demand a credible source. BUT when it comes to Christians, (I am not a Christian by the way.) people feel emboldened to demand answers from those who tend to get their knowledge bit by bit once or twice out of the week at church. Jesus said, "You err because you know not the scriptures nor the power of God." He also told his disciples beforehand of that they would scatter, Jesus didn't hold it to them, he understood their fears and didn't hold it against them, why should we be unforgiving toward people of over 2000 years ago when Jesus himself forgave them?

reply to post by wildtimes


From what I've understood, we both agreed he survived.
I believe he died, and resurrected.You believe he never died.

If this is untrue, please correct me.

reply to post by Hydroman

Taking all four gospels, put them side by side and create a cohesive story using all of them.

Independent testimony.

Get four witnesses to all agree on each other word for word, and you have what's called "collusion", and there credit is shot to hell.

Because they believed they had the truth, like all others who die for their beliefs. Secondly, we have to assume that these guys were actually real people who really did die for those reasons.

Yes, just as Heaven's Gate cult believed they had the truth - tell me, if they didn't kill themselves, waited for the asteroid to pass, and nothing happened.. would they have still killed themselves?

No. They would have said, "Wow, that was a close one. We were wrong, we almost died for some stupid belief that wasn't even true. Back to daily life."

Now, answer me this - if the apostles opened the tomb and carried Jesus' body out, would they have deliberately taken his body out?

No. They would have said, "Wow, that was a close one. We were wrong, we almost died for some stupid belief that wasn't even true. Back to daily life."

Why? Because people don't die for a known lie.

Now, answer this question. If those guys saw all of Jesus's marvelous works and still had problems believing, why does this same Jesus expect us to believe without seeing him?

John 20:29. If we didn't have faith, this would all be for nothing. What's the point of giving us everything all at once? We would not grow. It's like spoiling a child with material things, and even as he grows up he never has to work a day in his life. He doesn't learn anything. He doesn't mature.

All too often people say, "Show me, and I'll believe."
God says, "Believe, and I'll show you."

Originally posted by SavedOne

Originally posted by Hydroman
In the N.T., there are many stories about Jesus performing miracles. He raised people from the dead, he healed diseases, he healed the maimed and cripple, he changed water to wine, he multiplied fish and bread to feed thousands, he walked on water, he calmed seas, god even told many people verbally that this was his son in whom he was well pleased, he did so many things to show his power and thousands of people witnessed it.

Now, my question is, where were all these people during his trial and crucifixion? Why did they not put a stop to it? It doesn't make any sense. You would think that those thousands of people that saw him work in the power of god would take up for him, or at least come forth and give their testimony. Not a single one did?

Sure it makes sense, because people are the exact same way today. Just try pulling a person out of a burning car these days, tomorrow you'll get sued because you broke one of their ribs trying to save them. No good deed goes unpunished. All those healed people were probably off somewhere getting tanked or hiring prostitutes. That's human nature for you.

When it came down to it even the disciples didn't truly believe in Jesus. When he was crucified they threw their hands up in the air and said "well that's it, game over." Just like everyone else he had touched, they heard what he told them but they figured he just had some crazy magic skills or something rather than being truly divine. It wasn't until he returned after death that they finally accepted that he was indeed everything he had said that he was. This revelation transformed them, they went out to share his story even though they were tortured and even killed for it.

This exactly. It's essentially what I wanted to say.

Understand, Hydroman and the others, that you had this man casting magic spells, he claims to have these abilities from God, while the high priests and even some in the crowd said he got them from demons - Matthew 9:34

There is one who did, however, stand up for him - the man born blind, whom Jesus healed.

reply to post by Hydroman


According to the Gospel of Judas, he knew he had to die to fulfill the prophecy, so he allowed it to happen.

As for why didn't people speak up for him, The Pharisees were saying that he was working with Devils instead of Gods and therefore, anyone speaking up for him would be sticking up for witchcraft.


The Bible says that whoever confessed Jesus to be The Son of God, God dwells in him, but in The Bible, Jesus talks with two thousand demons called legion and they confess to him being The Son of God...

So, I wonder who is Jesus working for...

reply to post by Hydroman


In hiding. Too scared to speak up for fear of their own life. Even Christ's apostles watched from afar off except for John.

reply to post by Lionhearte

From what I've understood, we both agreed he survived.
I believe he died, and resurrected.You believe he never died.

If this is untrue, please correct me.

Not exactly...I believe he died, a long time after the crucifixion, as an old man, a master, a descended perfect soul who was one in a series of descended masters, neither the first, nor the last. Like Buddha, and each of the 13 Dalai Lama's before the current 14th Dalai Lama. Perhaps they are the same soul reincarnating at different times for different peoples when things are going awry. Or perhaps they are a team of perfected souls who from time to time take it in turns to come and try to help. I don't believe he was resurrected from the dead, though.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Independent testimony. Get four witnesses to all agree on each other word for word, and you have what's called "collusion", and there credit is shot to hell.

So you confirm that the gospels were written by man, not by god? If it were written by god, it would be cohesive, as it is not cohesive, it is not written by god, but by man. Why call it god's word? You have just proven for me that those words are the word of fallible man. How much more of the bible is the word of man as written for their own hands and mind, with no help from god?

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Yes, just as Heaven's Gate cult believed they had the truth - tell me, if they didn't kill themselves, waited for the asteroid to pass, and nothing happened.. would they have still killed themselves?

How would I know that?

Originally posted by Lionhearte
No. They would have said, "Wow, that was a close one. We were wrong, we almost died for some stupid belief that wasn't even true. Back to daily life."

How do you know this?

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Now, answer me this - if the apostles opened the tomb and carried Jesus' body out, would they have deliberately taken his body out?

That's not what happened according to the bible. Instead, they met a man they didn't recognize, but figured it must be Jesus. Some of them STILL doubted. He showed them the scars on his hands, feet, and side. I wonder why he didn't show the scars from the cat of nine tails, which made his entrails hang out, and his body look like hamburger meat, or the scars from the crown he wore?

Jesus told Thomas, "Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."

He helped Thomas believe. That's what I want, for Jesus to show up to me, and help me believe. He then said "Blessed are those who believe without seeing," but see, I don't care about being blessed.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
John 20:29. If we didn't have faith, this would all be for nothing. What's the point of giving us everything all at once? We would not grow. It's like spoiling a child with material things, and even as he grows up he never has to work a day in his life. He doesn't learn anything. He doesn't mature.

All too often people say, "Show me, and I'll believe."
God says, "Believe, and I'll show you."

So, those who god DID show up to and do marvelous things for, and they continued to serve him was for nothing? Also, read the verse I posted above about Thomas....it seems you aren't correct.

Originally posted by SavedOne
Sure it makes sense, because people are the exact same way today. Just try pulling a person out of a burning car these days, tomorrow you'll get sued because you broke one of their ribs trying to save them. No good deed goes unpunished. All those healed people were probably off somewhere getting tanked or hiring prostitutes. That's human nature for you.

When it came down to it even the disciples didn't truly believe in Jesus. When he was crucified they threw their hands up in the air and said "well that's it, game over." Just like everyone else he had touched, they heard what he told them but they figured he just had some crazy magic skills or something rather than being truly divine. It wasn't until he returned after death that they finally accepted that he was indeed everything he had said that he was. This revelation transformed them, they went out to share his story even though they were tortured and even killed for it.

You guys make good points.

Originally posted by Hydroman
So you confirm that the gospels were written by man, not by god? If it were written by god, it would be cohesive, as it is not cohesive, it is not written by god, but by man. Why call it god's word? You have just proven for me that those words are the word of fallible man. How much more of the bible is the word of man as written for their own hands and mind, with no help from god?

Most people agree that God didn't whip out ink and papyrus to write the Bible. It was written by 40 different men, over periods of thousands of years. Funny thing is, it's so cohesive, that linguists actually agree, skeptics and believers alike, that the Bible, even though is a collection of books, appears to have a single source writer. IE, God.

How would I know that?

Common sense.

How do you know this?

Common sense.

That's not what happened according to the bible. Instead, they met a man they didn't recognize, but figured it must be Jesus. Some of them STILL doubted. He showed them the scars on his hands, feet, and side. I wonder why he didn't show the scars from the cat of nine tails, which made his entrails hang out, and his body look like hamburger meat, or the scars from the crown he wore?

Of course it's not what happened, I was given an example (and made a typo I didn't catch), that the Apostles wouldn't have willingly taken his body out if he was actually dead. Because if he didn't resurrect, he wouldn't have been God, and it would be game over.

He helped Thomas believe. That's what I want, for Jesus to show up to me, and help me believe. He then said "Blessed are those who believe without seeing," but see, I don't care about being blessed.

Believing is a blessing in itself.

So, those who god DID show up to and do marvelous things for, and they continued to serve him was for nothing? Also, read the verse I posted above about Thomas....it seems you aren't correct.

Never said it was for nothing. God's word never comes back void. It sets out to do what He wants it to do. Certain people just require certain things. For me, it was just receiving the word. For my father, it was being dragged to hell by a demon that stood in the hallway at his mother in law's house.

If Jesus appearing to you is the only way you will be saved, it will happen. If you would never believe, even if you stood before Jesus, or would still reject him, what's the point?

John 4:48

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Most people agree that God didn't whip out ink and papyrus to write the Bible. It was written by 40 different men, over periods of thousands of years. Funny thing is, it's so cohesive, that linguists actually agree, skeptics and believers alike, that the Bible, even though is a collection of books, appears to have a single source writer. IE, God.

If God is the single source writer, why are all the accounts of the resurrection different? I'm simply showing you that he didn't write it. It was written by fallible man. Seems clear to me. Do you know why the collection of books seem to flow together? It's because man picked the ones that they felt should belong in it and threw out the ones that didn't. Then the protestants did the same thing with the Catholic Bible and made their own bible. The Ethiopian Orthodox church though felt like more books needed to be included and they have more than both the Catholic and Protestant bibles. Yet, if these bibles included all books that were written, it would not flow.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Believing is a blessing in itself.

That's not important to me.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Never said it was for nothing.

I was going by what you said here:

Originally posted by Lionhearte
John 20:29. If we didn't have faith, this would all be for nothing.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
If Jesus appearing to you is the only way you will be saved, it will happen. If you would never believe, even if you stood before Jesus, or would still reject him, what's the point?

If he stood before me, how could I not believe? Yes, you are right, I would still have to choose whether or not I want to follow him. But hopefully he would give me a chance to speak with him and ask questions so that I can understand who or what he is.