Where were all those who were healed, and those who had seen miracles?

reply to post by Lionhearte


where does it say he "cleared out purgatory"?

reply to post by Akragon


You can check out this website for an explanation on that.

reply to post by Hydroman

You would think that those thousands of people that saw him work in the power of god would take up for him, or at least come forth and give their testimony. Not a single one did?

Good question, h-man! S/F.
I like your style.

reply to post by Lionhearte

The apostles, as we've discussed in this thread, were major cowards, unwilling to die for Christ as he stood on trial and was crucified.

Yet, suddenly, three days after Christ died, the disciples were ALL willing to go under persecution, torment, excommunication, and even death.. why?

Because it was his will that they reject him and hide while he was on trial. Simon Peter was ready to kill anyone who touched him at the garden of Gathsemane but Yeshua stopped him. When he told Peter he would deny him 3 times before the cock crowed twice that wasn't a prophecy, he was commanding him to do it because he didn't want him to die at that time, he had work for Simon Peter.

Just like how it was Yeshua's will for Judas Iscariot to betray him, he could've cast Satan out when he saw him possess Judas but he did not.

reply to post by Lionhearte

There's lot of "evidence" to show that he "survived", because he technically did. He died, and he Resurrected. One piece of 'evidence' I think, indicates he went to India after his Resurrection, right? It would seem apparent to me, that Jesus decided to appear to other men and women in other countries to spread the Good News, just like he did with Paul the Apostle. If he truly did appear in India, etc.

Still doesn't change the fact he died, went to purgatory, cleared it out, and rose again alive in the flesh.

You don't know if he DIED!!....
and yeah, if he was seen eating, talking, walking around, and then in India...it was NOT a poltergeist.
I'ma repeat this one:

he went to India after his Resurrection, right? It would seem apparent to me, that Jesus decided to appear to other men and women in other countries to spread the Good News

And
was
NOT
DEAD

Impossible.

Why?
Never mind, you can't answer that because you weren't there. Neither was I. IMPOSSIBLE? Not at all. But he DID appear in other places, right.....
not DEAD. Survived.
*facepalm*
*sigh*
It's just not as complicated as you think.
Possible.

There were others that performed miracles, not just Jesus in my opinion. But to do with Jesus, the witnesses couldn't do anything because the Roman government ruled at the time - similar to the secret new world order of today but wasn't a secret.

reply to post by Hydroman


Perhaps you have attended the trial of someone you believe is innocent and have supplied your testimony?

The trial was illegal and the part before the Sanhedrin was done late at night.

Compare how many Americans were allowed to bring forward testimony at the trials of those incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay. Jesus was being portrayed to the Roman governor as a "terrorist" (inciting the people to oppose the Rule of Rome) as such, any alliance with Jesus would be considered as complicity in terrorism, under a state that was far less moderate than the one that created and incarcerated people without trial in Guantanamo Bay.

In short, to do as you suggested was a death sentence.

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Hydroman

Now, my question is, where were all these people during his trial and crucifixion? Why did they not put a stop to it? It doesn't make any sense. You would think that those thousands of people that saw him work in the power of god would take up for him, or at least come forth and give their testimony. Not a single one did?

 

I mentioned this in another thread, what is more surprising is the lack of documentation. The lack of a "historical Jesus" record, so-to-speak.

For a public figure that supposedly had followers and was actively campaigning, it's hard to find much outside of biblical text.

There is significant and considerable documentation. Jesus is a more historically attested person than Alexander the Great.

Do a little research.

reply to post by Hydroman


Because you cannot argue with the pharisees

Originally posted by CesarO
reply to post by Hydroman

 

And you guys believe that all of this happened about 4000 years ago? you guys understand you are talking about something that is in a book that first of all is a collection of stories that were combined by a council, then taken through history, re-written, translated hundreds of times and altered extensively and you want to try and discuss about its small details and form judgment of others based on it? remember that we are here to deny ignorance not embrace it, believing in god is great but blindly following a book seems to be the epitome of ignorance, which does not reflect on you as a person but on the base of your beliefs.

You are out by about 2,000 years.

Perhaps it is not us who are ignorant and blindly following some disputable "facts"?

reply to post by Hydroman



There wasn't really a "trial", merely a group of people gathered together, not every person he had encountered. Also, the Roman world wasn't like our world where people were granted certain "rights". It was a very brutal government that controlled it's population with fear and violence.
It would have been similar to, surprise, someone who was Jewish standing up to Hitler to not allow someone to go to the concentration camp or gas chamber. People saw they had no influence or power for their own flesh and blood, for their children, for their parents, and they would have no influence for anyone else either. Regardless of whether they wanted to stand up or didn't want to, they wouldn't out of pure fear and a lifetime of torment and being beaten down.
Did black slaves stand up for one another in the south in the 1800's? Does anyone stand up for the person being beaten and killed by the military groups in other countries... or even this country? It was basic human fear developed over time by a tyrannical ruling class.
All of us would like to think we would stand up when we saw an atrocity like this and maybe in today's world, we would be more likely to since we don't live under a tyrancial rule (regardless of what some would want us to believe), but it was a different world, a different type of existance, a different mindset and wasn't "out of the ordinary" at all for them to cower or even join in when the shouts of "crucify him" murmered up through the crowd... unfortunately.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by micmerci

 

After the resurrection, the cowardly apostles were emboldened and began their ministries.

They thought it was a "resurrection". Actually, lots of evidence (and an equal amount of non-evidence) show that he survived and lived a very long life.

He necessarily fled to less hostile climes, but the man who was "buried" (presumed by the Romans dead) was not dead. Comatose? Fainted? Drugged? We don't know. But the Shroud indicates he was certainly not dead.

About a month ago there was a national headline about a baby who was presumed dead and sent to the morgue. A while later (I don't recall the details) someone came asking to see the baby.....

and....

that baby was ALIVE.

edit on 8-5-2012 by wildtimes because: Ghaa!! formatting facepalm.

Wait a minute, the OP is saying that there is no evidence that Jesus even lived and you are saying that there is a lot of evidence that Jesus did not die by crucifixion?

It can't be both (but it can be neither). Get your "facts" straightened out.

Originally posted by chr0naut

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Hydroman

Now, my question is, where were all these people during his trial and crucifixion? Why did they not put a stop to it? It doesn't make any sense. You would think that those thousands of people that saw him work in the power of god would take up for him, or at least come forth and give their testimony. Not a single one did?

 

I mentioned this in another thread, what is more surprising is the lack of documentation. The lack of a "historical Jesus" record, so-to-speak.

For a public figure that supposedly had followers and was actively campaigning, it's hard to find much outside of biblical text.

There is significant and considerable documentation. Jesus is a more historically attested person than Alexander the Great.

Do a little research.

Sorry Chr0n, I'll refer you to this post.

I would like historical accounts that were written in his lifetime. If you can point me in the direction of one it would be appreciated. And if there is a vast amount of material, that should not be hard to do.

Disclaimer: Religious texts are not historical accounts.

Addressed in this post.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
The Disciples found no body in the Tomb.

This means that -

A) They somehow got passed the Roman Guards, moved the heavy stone, entered the tomb and REMOVED Jesus' body to set up the whole thing..

or

B) The Biblical account is true, word for word, and Jesus rose from the dead, and appeared to the Disciples.

Taking all four gospels, put them side by side and create a cohesive story using all of them.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Now, if A is true - why in the hell would the Disciples do that? We've already established that they were COWARDS, that they were not willing to die for Jesus or even admit to knowing him, and all of Jesus' teachings and his claims rested on one thing - his Resurrection. Now, if Jesus had not Resurrected, that would have mean he was a liar, and the Disciples would have just gone back to their daily lives.

They wouldn't have sacrificed their lives for him, if he hadn't rose again.

What do you say?

Because they believed they had the truth, like all others who die for their beliefs. Secondly, we have to assume that these guys were actually real people who really did die for those reasons.

Now, answer this question. If those guys saw all of Jesus's marvelous works and still had problems believing, why does this same Jesus expect us to believe without seeing him?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Hydroman

 

Lost what?

Why are you trying to derail your own thread?

I was just messing with you.

Originally posted by chr0naut
Perhaps you have attended the trial of someone you believe is innocent and have supplied your testimony?

Nope, haven't had an opportunity to do that. Most of the people I know who have gone to trial deserved it.

Originally posted by chr0naut
The trial was illegal and the part before the Sanhedrin was done late at night.

Who was cheering for Barabas?

Originally posted by chr0naut
Compare how many Americans were allowed to bring forward testimony at the trials of those incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay. Jesus was being portrayed to the Roman governor as a "terrorist" (inciting the people to oppose the Rule of Rome) as such, any alliance with Jesus would be considered as complicity in terrorism, under a state that was far less moderate than the one that created and incarcerated people without trial in Guantanamo Bay.

In short, to do as you suggested was a death sentence.

If he raised me from the dead, then I would know he could do it again. Many people saw him do this, didn't they? And many other marvelous works. Many people even heard god speak from heaven and say, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased." Wouldn't that be a hint that this guy is something extraordinary?

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
There wasn't really a "trial", merely a group of people gathered together, not every person he had encountered.

News didn't spread through the city as to what was going on with this influential figure? Or was he not that influential at the time?

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
It would have been similar to, surprise, someone who was Jewish standing up to Hitler to not allow someone to go to the concentration camp or gas chamber.

No, this wasn't your normal, everyday, average Jew. This was a guy who people heard a voice from sky speaking about. This was a guy who raised dead bodies. He fed thousands with a few fish and loaves of bread. He healed many maimed, cripple, blind, deaf, mute, people, made demons flee, etc.

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
People saw they had no influence or power for their own flesh and blood, for their children, for their parents, and they would have no influence for anyone else either. Regardless of whether they wanted to stand up or didn't want to, they wouldn't out of pure fear and a lifetime of torment and being beaten down.

Again, after watching this man do these godlike miracles, they didn't think he could do it again? This goes back to what I've been asking. These people saw Jesus do these things, yet would not stand up for him for their lack of belief in him. This god expects us to believe in him without even seeing these things. But if we don't believe, we deserve to be tortured forever.

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
Did black slaves stand up for one another in the south in the 1800's? Does anyone stand up for the person being beaten and killed by the military groups in other countries... or even this country? It was basic human fear developed over time by a tyrannical ruling class.

I don't know, did they see the son of god performing miracles, healing them, raising them from the dead, curing their sickness, making them see, making them hear, making them walk...etc. This is different.

Originally posted by chr0naut
Wait a minute, the OP is saying that there is no evidence that Jesus even lived and you are saying that there is a lot of evidence that Jesus did not die by crucifixion?
It can't be both (but it can be neither). Get your "facts" straightened out.

Did I say in my OP that Jesus didn't exist? But do you want to talk about getting facts straight? Let's see, you christians all worship the same exact god, right? The god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? I wonder if you all have your facts straight? Hmmmm, you all have the creator of the universe on your side, have a personal relationship with him, and STILL don't have all your facts straight amongst yourselves.

We DON'T have the creator of the universe on our side, why would you expect us to have our facts straight?

reply to post by Lionhearte


Some of us have stories of him appearing in North America about 2000 years ago, but alot of our tribes may have had hebrew ancestry if you believe the evidence archeaologists are turning of ancient hebrew writing being found at Ticonderoga and in some Ohio native american burial grounds and on cliffs in Georgia. Could also explain why my ancestors were exterminated and nearly driven to extinction, mirroring the jews on the otherside of the world.

The Aztecs/Mayans thought Hernando Cortez was Yeshua at first.

I keep seeing you say the same thing over and over again. Why would they be afraid of death, if he could resurrect them? Death wasnt scary to them, not as much as how* they died. The romans mastered the art of death and torture. Do you know what its like to be whipped by a cat of nine tails? Or hung on a cross? Fear is the biggest motivator and influence in the world, right behind love.