Where were all those who were healed, and those who had seen miracles?

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Good question OP. But remember, thousands of people laid down their lives for giving their testimony of Christ in the 1st century. My personal opinion is that these people were afraid to stand up for his truths while he was still just a man.

Also remember that people of other faiths ALSO have laid down their lives because of the strong convictions of their faith.

Now, you do remember that when Jesus was baptized, a voice from the heavens spoke to everyone present saying, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased." Where were they? Then there was the men who angels appeared to saying that a savior was born. Where were they? There were those who were dead and he resurrected. Where were they, and those who witnessed these miracles? These are just your run of the mill miracles, these are AMAZING feats! Only a man of god could do something like that...right? Or not? Where were these people?

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Beyond that, his disciples DID stand up for him when the Romans came to arrest him. Jesus stopped them from coming forward in order to give witness to what he was about to do for the whole world.

Oh, you mean the same Simon Peter who denied knowing him 3 times?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by micmerci
If you take the gospel accounts as historical, they show that even the Apostles who were with Christ everyday were scared big time when the trial and crucifixion were going down. Peter is the prime example, denying even knowing Him. I just couldn't imagine people who had a one time encounter with Jesus standing up for Him and risking their own necks.

Why not? Didn't they witness the power of god? Those who were raised from the dead didn't think Jesus couldn't raise them from the dead again? Those who were maimed didn't think Jesus could heal them again?

Yes, you are right, the disciples did scatter like roaches when the light is turned on. Something doesn't make sense about that. You know what I mean?

edit on 8-5-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

What if Jesus powers have been greatly embelished and he is just a person who have connected to higher conciousness and people exagerated his achivements to make them joint their cult. What if there have been thousands of people like Jesus working around the globe at every moment. Who do you think is controling religons no 1 enemy? The ones who do not need to obey the church and know more than the priests. For me Christianety and Islam are a daycare spirituality for people. You learn stories and memories them but do you question them and learn right from wrong. Some advance higher but many don't. The Chatolic Church and Islam are fundamentalists that wants it their way. Well their way is not the only way god choose to move and people are dying around the world for it. The are still people who are dying for sorcery and standing up for what is right. Humanity still have to many people caught up in duality and ego. I also have problem with it but at least I notice it. It is hard to have an opinion without duality an predjudense getting thru. I might be totaly wrong in what I am writing. But this is my opinion based on whatever fact, myths and stupidety and conditioning I have learned.

It is a theory and an opinion. Take it or leave it.You do not need to join a human grouping to know god. In fact I think getting to much influence from outside is counterproductive. Im happy that god came to me before I really had any faith in a religon. Otherwise I might have limited myself and not see the spiritual beauty in both Jesus and Buddhas message combined with science. Why just see one view when all the views and my own thoughts make a more beautiful picture than one view..

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by micmerci
I think those people were just waiting for a savior when they happened upon Jesus. Then when He was caught and crucified, they saw it as a failure and had their doubts. I don't think anyone would risk their lives on just a possibility.

It wasn't just a possibility. They saw these things! They heard god speak from the heavens saying that this was his son! Where were these people? Did they all think they had a mass auditory hallucination? What about those were dead and resurrected? What were they afraid of, didn't they think that Jesus could take care of them? The disciples saw these things too. What was wrong with them? Why would "Jesus resurrecting" do anything different than all the other miracles they saw him do?

Damn! This made me think of something else. If these disciples lived with him, saw all these things that Jesus did, but in the end did not stick up for him but instead turned tail and ran in disbelief.....why does this god expect us to believe in him without ever seeing him!!!! But, we will still be punished in fire forever! It doesn't make sense! How can this god do this to us!

edit on 8-5-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

Has he told you that he will do it? If he have not then why do you belive it. Can it be that you have been taught lies? Hell for me is the state of disconnection from everything and god. You become very depressed when everything seem to be working against you. This planet is where you make your choices and choose to connect or not. Need and harmonious actions in the face of difficulty is the key to connecting.

My views and nothing else. Take it or leave it.

Originally posted by micmerci

That is the very reason that scripture says that blessed are those who do not see yet believe. Because it is so much more difficult to do.

Yes but is it the view(religon) of god they should follow or the message of love, thruth, harmony and justice? I do not truely belive without proof. Never have and never will since I am constanly reaxamining myself and everything around me. But I have enought experiances to not doubt that god exists or whatever name we choose to call he/she/it.

I hope you do too. Namaste

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
Has he told you that he will do it? If he have not then why do you belive it.

Depends on how you interpret the scriptures, but pretty much all christians say that yes, this is what happens, and that is what I'm referring to.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
Can it be that you have been taught lies?

Yes.

reply to post by Hydroman


I would assume these people feared the pain of death... Even as peter denied him...

The jews wanted him dead, and nothing was going to stop them from killing Jesus... I believe peter and anyone else who denied him feared being tortured and strung up on their own cross along side Jesus...

And if you'll notice, even Jesus Feared what was to come... even to the point of Sweating blood which is something that actually will happen to a person under great stress... that is a medical fact.

Thats the best answer i can give

Originally posted by Akragon
I would assume these people feared the pain of death... Even as peter denied him...

Again, the disciples witnessed Jesus raising people from death. So did other people. Why would they be afraid and not trust him after this?

Originally posted by Akragon
The jews wanted him dead, and nothing was going to stop them from killing Jesus... I believe peter and anyone else who denied him feared being tortured and strung up on their own cross along side Jesus...

Very possible. This means that they didn't believe Jesus was who he said he was. Again, they lived with him, spoke with him, touched him, heard him, etc. and still didn't fully believe. If that is the case, how does this god expect US to fully believe when we haven't seen, touched, heard, him? We would be even more crazy to believe it than those who actually did see him and not believe. Don't you see what I'm saying?

Originally posted by Akragon
And if you'll notice, even Jesus Feared what was to come... even to the point of Sweating blood which is something that actually will happen to a person under great stress... that is a medical fact.

Yeah, I know this. He was god, but he had his a different will than his father counterpart. It wasn't his will to go through with it, it was his father's (but also his since they are the same being).

reply to post by Hydroman

Again, the disciples witnessed Jesus raising people from death. So did other people. Why would they be afraid and not trust him after this?

This was a reoccuring theme throughout his ministry... Many saw what he did and yet still did not believe he was who he said he was...

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

This means that they didn't believe Jesus was who he said he was. Again, they lived with him, spoke with him, touched him, heard him, etc. and still didn't fully believe.

Right... but that changed after he came back....

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

If that is the case, how does this god expect US to fully believe when we haven't seen, touched, heard, him? We would be even more crazy to believe it than those who actually did see him and not believe. Don't you see what I'm saying?

i know exactly what you're saying... Micmerci gave you the right passage... blessed are those that have not seen yet still believe...

Yeah, I know this. He was god, but he had his a different will than his father counterpart. It wasn't his will to go through with it, it was his father's (but also his since they are the same being).

Nah... he wasn't God.... Gods son....

Originally posted by Akragon
Right...

but that changed after he came back....

Sure, and guess what, they still saw him. We don't get that chance, and we have to make a decision that our eternity depends on. They actually got to speak with him, hear him, touch him, and it was difficult to believe. Finally they were able to do so, but it was only after they SAW, HEARD, TOUCHED him again. We are supposed to believe without any of that. So, it makes sense that people do not believe, but it doesn't matter because they will burn forever!

Originally posted by Akragon
i know exactly what you're saying... Micmerci gave you the right passage... blessed are those that have not seen yet still believe...

Why are people so concerned on these boards about being blessed? What I want is truth, not believing in something because I am told that I will be blessed for it.

Originally posted by Akragon
Nah... he wasn't God.... Gods son....

Depends on how you interpret it, like many things in the bible.

reply to post by Hydroman

Sure, and guess what, they still saw him. We don't get that chance, and we have to make a decision that our eternity depends on. They actually got to speak with him, hear him, touch him, and it was difficult to believe. Finally they were able to do so, but it was only after they SAW, HEARD, TOUCHED him again. We are supposed to believe without any of that. So, it makes sense that people do not believe, but it doesn't matter because they will burn forever!

So, you don't believe in Jesus yet you believe Hell exists? Is that what you're saying?

Why are people so concerned on these boards about being blessed? What I want is truth, not believing in something because I am told that I will be blessed for it.

Its just a word... someone that is looked favorably upon by God...

What truth are you looking for? Perhaps i can help...

Depends on how you interpret it, like many things in the bible

Well i let his words inturpret it.... how do you?

Do you let others tell you what he said? Do you listen to paul? He will gladly tell you Jesus was God....

I will not... but who am i?

Originally posted by Akragon
So, you don't believe in Jesus yet you believe Hell exists? Is that what you're saying?

I don't know if either one exists.

Originally posted by Akragon
Its just a word... someone that is looked favorably upon by God...

Why would he look favorably upon the gullible? I wonder if Allah looks favorably upon those who decide to believe in him? And Vishnu?

Originally posted by Akragon
What truth are you looking for? Perhaps i can help...

Any truth is good.

Originally posted by Akragon
Well i let his words inturpret it.... how do you.

Do you let others tell you what he said? Do you listen to paul? He will gladly tell you Jesus was God....

I will not... but who am i?

?

What are his words that you let interpret it? I don't get it. I read it for myself, and I also listen to others. How else could you do it?

reply to post by Hydroman

I don't know if either one exists.

Fair enough...

IF hell exists... God is not a loving creator which renders the attrocities within the OT true according to God...

A loving Father would NEVER send his child to such a place...

And it doesn't matter if Jesus actually existed or not... the lessons that are written about are words to live by... and they've been echoed throughout human history through various other "masters" or whatever you'd like to call them...

Why would he look favorably upon the gullible? I wonder if Allah looks favorably upon those who decide to believe in him? And Vishnu?

Gullible?

i don't understand what you mean...

I would assume if one believes in a God or a higher power... they would want said God to like him/her a little...

no?

Any truth is good.

Love is truth... do i get a point for that?

What are his words that you let interpret it? I don't get it. I read it for myself, and I also listen to others. How else could you do it?

Well...

If you read what HE said, not narritive from the authors or what it says about him in other books... Then you get an entirely different story then what Christians will tell you...

Heres a good example...

John 1

Most of this chapter in Johns book is narrative...

He said Jesus was God in the flesh... Jesus didn't say that...

John said Jesus created the world... Jesus didn't say that...

This verse....

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Is incorrect in my humble opinion...

We are all Children of God... born by the will of God...

This verse forces the reader to "believe" in Johns words as opposed to Jesus'... Because if you don't "believe" in his words then logically you are not a "son of God"...

this just isn't true.... Though if anyone reads his words its extremely hard not to believe in what he said...

Mind you im not saying ignore everyone else but his words... the story makes little sense if you do that...

Just realize when Jesus is speaking... his words are clear in every circumstance.

Parables are an entirely different story though

Originally posted by Akragon
IF hell exists... God is not a loving creator which renders the attrocities within the OT true according to God...

A loving Father would NEVER send his child to such a place...

Ah, but you see, christians say that unbelievers aren't his children.

Originally posted by Akragon
And it doesn't matter if Jesus actually existed or not... the lessons that are written about are words to live by... and they've been echoed throughout human history through various other "masters" or whatever you'd like to call them...

It kind of does matter if you interpret the bible a certain way, because it says that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one goes to the father but by him.

Originally posted by Akragon
Gullible?

i don't understand what you mean...

Being gullible means you believe things easily without really thinking about it.

Originally posted by Akragon
I would assume if one believes in a God or a higher power... they would want said God to like him/her a little...

no?

Sure, I suppose they would.

Originally posted by Akragon
Love is truth... do i get a point for that?

If love is truth, what is hate?

Love is love. You failed.

reply to post by Hydroman

Ah, but you see, christians say that unbelievers aren't his children.

Why would i care what "christians" say? I can read, i don't need anyone to tell me what he said...

Im not Christian, Jesus wasn't "christian"... And considering there is 32k different flavors of Christian...

see where im going with this...

It kind of does matter if you interpret the bible a certain way, because it says that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one goes to the father but by him.

Do you know WHO said that?

His words my friend

Being gullible means you believe things easily without really thinking about it.

I know what it means... are you calling me gullible?

If love is truth, what is hate?

Love is love. You failed.

Hate is the extreme opposite of love... Postive and negative extremes...

Where did i fail... i haven't even started

Originally posted by Akragon
Why would i care what "christians" say? I can read, i don't need anyone to tell me what he said...

Im not Christian, Jesus wasn't "christian"... And considering there is 32k different flavors of Christian...

see where im going with this...

Sure do.

Originally posted by Akragon
Do you know WHO said that?

His words my friend

Jesus? Or what the author was told Jesus had said...

Originally posted by Akragon
I know what it means... are you calling me gullible?

Don't know, do you fit that definition?

Originally posted by Akragon
Hate is the extreme opposite of love... Postive and negative extremes...

If love is truth, then hate is false?

Originally posted by Akragon
Where did i fail... i haven't even started

Too late. You lost.

They knew what he came to do, Yeshua told them months before his crucifixtion what was coming and why. They also knew from the prophecies.

reply to post by micmerci

After the resurrection, the cowardly apostles were emboldened and began their ministries.

They thought it was a "resurrection". Actually, lots of evidence (and an equal amount of non-evidence) show that he survived and lived a very long life.

He necessarily fled to less hostile climes, but the man who was "buried" (presumed by the Romans dead) was not dead. Comatose? Fainted? Drugged? We don't know. But the Shroud indicates he was certainly not dead.

About a month ago there was a national headline about a baby who was presumed dead and sent to the morgue. A while later (I don't recall the details) someone came asking to see the baby.....

and....

that baby was ALIVE.

reply to post by Hydroman


Lost what?

Why are you trying to derail your own thread?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by micmerci
All the Apostles gave their lives for their beliefs- and like I said no one does that unless its for a sure thing.

Yes they do, all the time. Heard of the Heaven's Gates Cult? Muslims do it. Yes, even Christians have.

It's funny you should mention Heaven's Gate. Want to know something interesting?

The apostles, as we've discussed in this thread, were major cowards, unwilling to die for Christ as he stood on trial and was crucified.

Yet, suddenly, three days after Christ died, the disciples were ALL willing to go under persecution, torment, excommunication, and even death.. why?


Before you rebuttal with the same statement - stating Heaven's Gate, Muslims, etc, all did the same thing.. Remember one key thing that eliminates that argument..

The Disciples found no body in the Tomb.

This means that -

A) They somehow got passed the Roman Guards, moved the heavy stone, entered the tomb and REMOVED Jesus' body to set up the whole thing..

or

B) The Biblical account is true, word for word, and Jesus rose from the dead, and appeared to the Disciples.


Now, if A is true - why in the hell would the Disciples do that? We've already established that they were COWARDS, that they were not willing to die for Jesus or even admit to knowing him, and all of Jesus' teachings and his claims rested on one thing - his Resurrection. Now, if Jesus had not Resurrected, that would have mean he was a liar, and the Disciples would have just gone back to their daily lives.

They wouldn't have sacrificed their lives for him, if he hadn't rose again.

What do you say?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by micmerci

 

After the resurrection, the cowardly apostles were emboldened and began their ministries.

They thought it was a "resurrection". Actually, lots of evidence (and an equal amount of non-evidence) show that he survived and lived a very long life.

He necessarily fled to less hostile climes, but the man who was "buried" (presumed by the Romans dead) was not dead. Comatose? Fainted? Drugged? We don't know. But the Shroud indicates he was certainly not dead.

Impossible. I dunno if you studied the Romans or not, but the Romans were really, really great at killing people. They prided themselves on it. They made damn sure that he was dead. Not "mostly dead", he certainly wasn't "slightly alive", he was dead as a doorknob. You couldn't get much more dead then him.

There's lot of "evidence" to show that he "survived", because he technically did. He died, and he Resurrected. One piece of 'evidence' I think, indicates he went to India after his Resurrection, right? It would seem apparent to me, that Jesus decided to appear to other men and women in other countries to spread the Good News, just like he did with Paul the Apostle. If he truly did appear in India, etc.

Still doesn't change the fact he died, went to purgatory, cleared it out, and rose again alive in the flesh.