Could this be one of the most profound piece's of scripture ever written?

wat noone seem to notice, is that there is a difference between lies and truth

lies mayb all powers but they are not the truth

Originally posted by auraelium

"When you know yourselves,then you shall be known.Then you shall know that you are the sons of the living God.
But if you do not know yourselves,then you are alone and dwell in poverty."

enjoy.

edit on 8-5-2012 by auraelium because: (no reason given)

I am a Gnostic Christian.

You are correct.
It is an important saying and is the basic backbone of Gnostic thinking. Seek within to find the God without.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by reficul
cool reference. i'm not a christian either,thats a roman made lie. i will give you a quote from the gospel of thomas that is probably why the romans didn't include it in their bible. it gives the power of god to the individual,not the church,quoted fron jesus himself!

gospel of thomas-3
jesus said,"if(20)those who lead you say to you,'see the kingdom is in the sky,'then the birds in the sky will proceed you. if they say to you,'it is in the sea',then the fish will proceed you. (25) rather,the kingdom is inside of you,and it is outside of you. when you come to know yourselves,then you will become known,(33)and you will realize that it is who you are. the sons of the living father.
but if you will not know yourselves,you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

peace

You are probably right but the bible does have Jesus saying the same types of things. You are definitely right that those in power did not want anything but sheeople about. That is why when Constantine bought the new church, they killed many Gnostics and tried to burn all their books. They failed of course.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by TedHodgson
reply to post by auraelium

 

Belief in oneself is paramount to happiness, After-all if your incapable of believing in yourself how can you believe in god?

True to a point. Believing in yourself goes deeper than that though. It is recognizing what you are and how you came to be accepting it, forgiving all involved and moving on to the next step of Jacob's ladder. Spiritually speaking that is.

Let me give you my anecdotal tale.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL

It will affirm the Christian mystic and stick in the craw of the Christian fundamentalist.

I like it.

Originally posted by KenArten
reply to post by auraelium

 

Good to be reminded about this great work that is probably uncorrupted by political and opportunistic editing. This quote gets me thinking.

Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

Kind of sounds like what ATS members try to do, at least the first part. Actually if we take away grandiose interpretations of "reign" and substitute "understand", then it is perfectly normal human behaviour (at least those of inquiring mind that are always seeking), almost something Freud might have said of someone digging into his unconscious mind.

Often we do not like what we find in Pandora's box, but when we can make sense of it, it is just another aspect of life.

I am going to watch this thread, but meanwhile, off to re-read some of my saved translation.
KenArten

I agree that reign and understanding could be substituted.

What do you make of the overall saying?

How do you interpret what it is saying of the enlightened one's?

As a Gnostic I have my view but would like to know what an unenlightened one thinks.

I mean that as a joke my friend and not any one-upmanship.
We all have a gods within and are all working to be Gods.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I disagree that it's the most profound piece of scripture. It doesn't provoke any thought. The most profound thing about it is that it promotes self-mastery—the anti-thesis of Christianity.

Exactly right and that is or should be profound to any Christian and should make them wonder why a God would create them to just be slaves.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by BIHOTZ
spiritual poverty is the worst. It can kill you just as painfully as starvation. It can disempowered you just as effectively as having a lesser station than another. It can make you live un-satiated for all your days, just like not ever having.

Our connection to the Living God is free, enjoy!

s&f !

Apotheosis, if you seek hard enough and are successful in finding, will teach you that nothing is free. First you will know the pain and pleasure of it, then the curse of duty.
lt is all worth it though as you are correct about spiritual poverty.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Fromabove
I like this profound and amazing scripture by Jesus Christ.

" I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man can come to the father except by me. "

And this one too, by Jesus....

" I tel you the truth, that unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. "

And one from the Old Testament...

" The heart of a man is desperately wicked, who can know it ? "

edit on 8-5-2012 by Fromabove because: (no reason given)

The first quote is wrong or just speaking to his immediate entourage..
In the second, what do you think Jesus meant by perish?

As to the third, this clip refutes it. I think our default position on good and evil is good and only as we grow and evolve do we turn to evil ways or what some call evil. That evil, in the evolutionary sense is required of all of us or we would go extinct.

www.ctvnews.ca...

I think Jesus may have had an inkling on the route to salvation but if he thought his way was the only way then he was wrong or just speaking to his imediate entourage.

Let me explain what I meant a bit more on evil being good and necessary.
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

It's the knowledge of conscious awareness of the true self being at one with the spirit of the universe, who is truth and life. It is most profound but has nothing to do with extraterrestrials whatsover.

One is never as one with the spirit of the universe because it is not one. It is all who came before and passed on.
It is not life. It just lives as we do. Naturally. Nor supernaturally.

Without apotheosis, your opinion, stated as knowledge, is not knowledge.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Akragon
Thomas is one of my favorite books...

18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."



The entire book is beautiful...

I would suggest to anyone who understands the words of Jesus... read Thomas...

reluctant-messenger.com...

edit on 8-5-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

It is a good book for thinkers for sure. All the Gnostic gospels were written to promote thought and seeking the right way. None should be read literally though because of that fact.

How do you interpret the end being where the beginning is?
I think I know it FMPOV but like to compare notes as no one likes my use of the language to express it.
Perhaps you language will be better.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Must...first...denounce...christianity. Then compliment the teachings of Yeshua ha'Meshiyach in which the faith is based on.

Ah the paradoxes!

I was agnostic, now i'm christian and i am not ashamed. We are what we are.

How did you go from an agnostic to one who embraced a religion based on human sacrifice and a genocidal God who had his own son killed?
To me, Christianity is quite immoral?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by bowtomonkey
If people are brave enough to throw away their self conception they will realize that behind it all, what looks out from behind your eyes and every thought you take, is God the creator. This is the profundity of the quote

I agree but not with the usual definition given to God the creator.
He is a miracle working super God and pure myth while our real Godhead is not.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Alternative Thinker
I really like the quotes from the top posts! I haven been thinking in those lanes for a long time now, while believing...

Matthew 21:19-21 19 And seeing a fig tree by the wayside, he went to it and found nothing on it but only leaves. And he said to it, “May no fruit ever come from you again!” And the fig tree withered at once. 20 When the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither at once?” 21 And Jesus answered them, “Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen.

We have the power to do anything, as long as we have faith. One way or another! That's the lesson to be learned.

You have missed the lesson of Gnostic Jesus.

Faith without facts is for fools.
Gnosis means knowledge. Knowledge is facts.

If Gnostics worked with faith, they would be as foolish as Christians.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

Originally posted by auraelium


In my opinion, our ego is what defines us as humans. Without it, we wouldn't be aware of ourselves. If we got rid of it—like most seem to want—we'd be unable to define ourselves. Besides, eliminating the ego is only possible if every human stopped communicating to each other for numerous generations, as our egos are the product of our language. Without the ego, there wouldn't be heaven on earth, because we wouldn't realize the concepts of heaven and earth. We'd have to be ignorant of everything, and rely strictly on our mammalian impulses and instincts to survive. Heaven on earth is found in control of the ego, through the self-mastery of every human.

Anyways.. my two cents. Also, star for you for mentioning Wilhelm Reich.

An excellent and accurate description of ego IMO.

It is to be known and mastered. Not discarded.
Plato said the same thing except that he called it our character and thought that perfecting our character was the purpose of life.

I think therefore I am and I am is my ego.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by BlueMule
It will affirm the Christian mystic and stick in the craw of the Christian fundamentalist.

I like it.

I like it too but do not agree with you on what it will do to Fundamentalists.

They are in slave mode thanks to their indoctrination and brainwashing and will not even think on it.
They are a waste of good human potential but religion has them too deeply lost for intelligent words to ever find them. Only the hope and responsibility of saving a few keeps me about and bothering them with words of wisdom as those of the Gnostic scriptures.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

It is a good book for thinkers for sure. All the Gnostic gospels were written to promote thought and seeking the right way. None should be read literally though because of that fact.

Actually i believe much of thomas and the gospels should be taken litterally...

How do you interpret the end being where the beginning is?
I think I know it FMPOV but like to compare notes as no one likes my use of the language to express it.
Perhaps you language will be better.

Those that know the beginning will also know where "the end" lies... They are the same...

Before the flesh was the spirit... and after the flesh the spirit will remain...

as it says...

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

Thomas is a very deep piece of text... it litterally details the fact that we are spirit and flesh... but most of us do not know it... Most believe in the physical only because its what is tangible...

The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. During the days when you ate what is dead, you made it come alive. When you are in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"



Here he stresses that the outside must become like the inside... The spirit is love... the physical world is self...

Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the kingdom."

They said to him, "Then shall we enter the kingdom as babies?"

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."


I could probably write a book about the gospel of Thomas...

Thanks for this.

I was trying to be a bit more specific though.

For instance. We could interpret "the end being where the beginning is" as this could point to a heaven where reincarnation is a fact ans souls go back and forth. Something I do not believe in.

How do you interpret the end being where the beginning is?

Your own words.

Regards
DL