You Westerners Are Deluded

Originally posted by Xeven
America will be ok. We have all the natural resources we need to live decent unlike most of the world and we have moderate weather unlike most of the world. Basically if the world collapses we would definately have to change our lifestyles but our economic demise will hurt large parts of the rest of humanity than it will the average American just becasue we live on an earth sweet spot if nothing else.

If America collapses, it will be nasty theres no doubt about that. But overall it would do more good than you could think. Remember the Fall of the Soviet Union? It benefitted Russia and there people hugely who's to say it wouldn't fot the US.

The East is rising like a fish coming up from the bottom of the Mariana Trench. There is still a long way to go before they will be a serious threat to the United States and its Western allies. I would hope however that we can move beyond thinking of things in terms of threats and groveling.

Many in the West are just as interested in getting rid of old style Western oligarchical imperialism as people in the East are. Maybe then we can live in harmony or at least let up on each other a little and work through our problems while treating each other as we ourselves would like to be treated.

reply to post by ANOK


There is one variable that is not really a variable, but more like a control group that you didn't mention and it may be because you were only talking about the business cycle. Understandable. It's not part of the business cycle.

Unions. And they get their strength from progressive liberals who do things like, I don't know, take money from rich folks (Soros) from other countries in order to continue their virus-like effects here where the capitalism had boomed until there's nothing left. They also like to sell US secrets to China for money.

This is not the result of a business cycle any more than our wars being the result of a War Cycle. It aught to be interesting to see if unions get injected into China.

Oh and did I say it wasn't the business cycle?

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital
It quite possibly could be the motivator for global governance, but I have spoken to a few people and most seem to think that the world is in a process of de-globalization, companies aren't looking to invest overseas, people are focussing on their communities first, and countries overall (especially developing nations) insist on their right of sovereignty. Who knows what the future will be like, things are moving so quickly these days its hard to predict whether we are replaying the fall of the Roman Empire or Germany in 1939?

Thing is people trying to do that is good, but it's too late. Too many companies have already sent their production overseas. As I said this is going to take years and we might even see our economy rise, but the trend over years will be stagnation and a drop.

It is really not down to the small companies, it is down to the cost of labour, of hiring workers. A company with one worker might do really well, but it makes no difference, because when it comes down to it, a nations standard of living comes from 'jobs', not what a company makes in profit. If a company makes more profit by laying off workers it makes the problem worse in the long run. If no one is working, no one is buying your product, except maybe the Chinese lol. It might make more profit temporarily, but it is slow suicide for the nation. A high gap between rich and poor, is the first sign that the nation is going to eventually fail economically. It shows that the working class are not working, production is low, and capitalists are making quick profits, but not investing in the future.

Income Gap Widens: Census Finds Record Gap Between Rich And Poor

reply to post by CrimsonKapital


Actually, you're the deluded one. While you may think that the Asian markets will rise while the Western ones fall, think again. If the West is having a rough time, I can assure you this will be reflected in the Asian markets and vice versa. Clearly you don't understand the very basics of how everyone is connected and contrary to what you believe, Asia actually has a deep interest in maintaining ties with the west.

Now I don't know about a new world order, but according to the info I have from someone in the finance industry, there are actually a small number of people right at the top who pull the strings on pretty much everything like it's a game. There's the 1%, and then there's these guys in a wealth bracket of their own.

Of course, you won't believe that because judging by the arrogant tone in your post and replies to other people, you have it all figured out.

Let's face it though, nobody on this site knows anything for a FACT about what is really going on behind the scenes or what our future holds. Nobody here is in a position where they are entrusted with the highest level of information. If they were, then they wouldn't be on this site. We can only imagine and discuss ideas.

That's enough enlightenment from you for tonight you deluded financial & political expert.

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital
Okay I will give it to you, some things like the Bilderbergs probably do have some scheme of a world order in which they rule. But there are still many faults with the nwo, like for example, how come not one of the hundreds of thousands of files released from wikileaks had any reference to the nwo?
Now you could quite simply say well they too are just pawns, but for what purpose?

I would argue that many of the documents and files released by WikiLeaks relate to the activities and agenda put forth by these global entities. I wouldn't expect that you'd find a memo referencing "world domination" or explicitly outlined details of a nefarious plot. Rather, you'd find documentation of activities that, when taken in the context of the whole, paint a picture of some of what's going on. And if you look at the wikileaks documents, that's exactly what you do find. Also, I think that it's a good idea to remember that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

What your missing is American pride.

As the world gets more and more messed up, more countries can be seen electing extreme politicians from both sides of the fence. Observe Greece, Netherlands and more.

As the situation in the US grows more dire, citizens will become desperate and look to those making grandiose promises. America might grow more and more warlike (yes, moreso than now) in an attempt to regain it's former glory.

I fear the economic collapse of the West not because I believe the US will take down China and others with them, but because of the actions a desperate, nuclear armed ex-superpower might take.

reply to post by TheMatrixusesYou


Actually I would argue unions are a result of the business cycle.

The problem is saying workers demand better 'pay', but what they really demand is a bigger share of the profit.
Capitalists of course don't see it that way, and instead they increase prices in order to maintain profits. That causes the viscous cycle of higher prices leading to a demand for more pay to keep up. That is not the fault of the workers or the unions but of capitalism, and it's desire to make increasing profit.

Workers recognized the only way to protect their own interests, as a whole, was to organize. Unions are a necessity, not the problem. Without unions there would be no weekends, no 40 hour week, no vacations, no safety, no minimum wage. Imagine the industrial revolution...




Capitalism doesn't care about people, only exploiting them to make profit.

reply to post by CrimsonKapital


I love how people like you wear your ignorance like a badge of honor, look at what you wrote, do you really think that the few people you read about or read peoples posts is a verbatum ideal that represents the billions of westerners. come on you dont know me and you dont know half of the people you think you do no one knows anyone really we all live our lives trying to get through it. You speak of western and eastern but if you look at the attitude you have as you type your no different than anyone else you have a hatred that is common to all its called being human and feeling you need to pick a side. Then one day you will wake up (or a least i hope you do) and realize we are all on the same planet and we are all human your ideals about the east are no different then theirs about the west so basically your attitude is just as bad as the people you complain about. If you or the east truly are better then why are you here just like the rest of us, why are you not out and about trying to do better, what difference do you see when you have 2 people that are morons but one is dressed better and has more money and power than the other. At the end of the day none of that matters they are both still morons. No one is better than another and you will find out one day hopefully not to late.

adding that ask yourself your example of China being a powerful easterner where would they bee if tomorrow everyone around the globe stopped buying their products right, they would no better than anyone else every and i do mean EVERY empire falls since the beginning now seems to be thier turn but it will end and a new power will rise that's life.

Stop with the whining about who is more powerful because the last time i checked speak to the chinese citizens trying to get by, they are in no better situation than anyone else there are extreme problems in that country like every where else as a matter of fact i believe the last time i checked China, N Korea and the like had worse living conditions for their citizens than anywhere on top of polution. So what good is power and ruling a country when all of its people are dropping like flies.

Like i said keep on being ignorant i need some humor in my life

reply to post by nightbringr


This might sound crazy, but I'd put money on it that we nor any other nation would actually use nukes. I'm not even sure we can guarantee decent success. After learning that our landing on the moon was possibly faked and then seen the premise on which it could have been faked, I've been doubtful about our technological power and others. It could all be a grand hoax to keep people in fear. Power perceived is power achieved and we live and die by that principle.

So I don't think we are that pressured and stressed to the point where we'd do anything crazy.

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital

Originally posted by Mkoll
Why the hell can't we all just rise together instead of fighting in all these various arenas(philosophical, cultural, economic, religious) for dominance?

In the meantime while that dream remains unrealized let them have the power, so long as they don't exploit us. The Chinese are more numerous and, to be honest, more conscious than us Americans. They have a better chance to take the power back from the oligarchy.

Well maybe its because you kicked them around, exploited their lands, and made war against them? Many countries in Asia haven't forgotten how they were treated under European colonialism, why can't they do the same what you did to them?

you seem to be a very bitter person for whatever reason. it seems as though you want the people in america to suffer. why would you want ANYONE to suffer?

reply to post by CrimsonKapital

Remember the Fall of the Soviet Union? It benefitted Russia and their people hugely who's to say it wouldn't for the US.

The Russian people didn't have anything to begin with. They lived a lot closer to the ground back then so they were better able to absorb the blow to any "lifestyle". In America however, we are gonna be pissed when (if it comes to that) our air conditioners and refrigerators stop working. We are fat, dumb and ignorant. If the big wheel stops turning for us, that is when the SHTF.

Look at the situation right now. Our whole economy and lifestyle turns on abundant oil. From the gas we guzzle to the roads we clog with our gas guzzling vehicles, to the clothes we wear, to the plastic our pre digested food comes in. We are lost without it and don't care where it comes from or who we have to kill to get it.

Sorry state. It will crash and crash hard for us I am afraid. My fear is just how big a fit the scum at the top of the pond will throw before then. A world war tantrum is something a demigod the likes of Hitler would have relished. Hills... mountains of smoldering corpses.

May we go quietly with at least the shred of honor we required of all of our victims.

America out of everywhere, America go home.

Originally posted by LostCause00
reply to post by CrimsonKapital

 

Actually, you're the deluded one. While you may think that the Asian markets will rise while the Western ones fall, think again. If the West is having a rough time, I can assure you this will be reflected in the Asian markets and vice versa. Clearly you don't understand the very basics of how everyone is connected and contrary to what you believe, Asia actually has a deep interest in maintaining ties with the west.

Now I don't know about a new world order, but according to the info I have from someone in the finance industry, there are actually a small number of people right at the top who pull the strings on pretty much everything like it's a game. There's the 1%, and then there's these guys in a wealth bracket of their own.

Of course, you won't believe that because judging by the arrogant tone in your post and replies to other people, you have it all figured out.

Let's face it though, nobody on this site knows anything for a FACT about what is really going on behind the scenes or what our future holds. Nobody here is in a position where they are entrusted with the highest level of information. If they were, then they wouldn't be on this site. We can only imagine and discuss ideas.

That's enough enlightenment from you for tonight you deluded financial & political expert.

Unless you believe the collapse of the west will create a nwo then I wasn't calling you deluded, didn't you get that from the OP?
I know how everything is connected nowadays, but what I believe is happening is the deglobalization of the world, the Asian markets *know* the US dollar has a limited time left, so they are bailing out now but doing it as discreetly as possible so as to not trigger a collapse. If that happened it would hurt everybodies interests.
My arrogant tone? I thought I was being quite polite to the people on this thread, the only person who I lost my patience with was Jean Paul.
At least we find some common ground, that is that NOBODY no matter who they say they are really knows the full story of whats going on behind the scenes. I don't claim to be a prophet or anything, but like I said once a country loses its manufacturing base its pretty hard if not impossible to maintain a title such as "superpower".

reply to post by CrimsonKapital

America has always and still stands for freedom. That still means something. But lately too much government and entitlement has been keeping her down. The weaker members of our society are increasingly taking control and more and more people sit back as the government sucks them dry. Our budget simply cannot sustain this overreach. The sad thing is, we're the only thing between a world of freedom and a world of socialism. We fell not because our ways were outmoded, but because men and woman were not willing to do the right thing and be responsible members of society.

I have to laugh at people who think china being -the- superpower would be better. And I have to wonder... China is so far behind in countless ways. The would need another 50 years to catch up. Assuming that America the beautiful (and the brave) somehow does nothing for the next 50 years then maybe, just maybe. But control freaks of this nature will do this world a whole lot of pain. Socialism and communism are failed systems. I can't imagine seeing this in a beneficial light.

I must admit I admire the way China just sat back and watched while Bush/Cheney took the US down in pursuit of global domination. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad..

Originally posted by TheMatrixusesYou
reply to post by nightbringr

 

This might sound crazy, but I'd put money on it that we nor any other nation would actually use nukes. I'm not even sure we can guarantee decent success. After learning that our landing on the moon was possibly faked and then seen the premise on which it could have been faked, I've been doubtful about our technological power and others. It could all be a grand hoax to keep people in fear. Power perceived is power achieved and we live and die by that principle.

So I don't think we are that pressured and stressed to the point where we'd do anything crazy.

You know we did it before right?

I was in the military and I can tell you, they take things to a whole other level of seriousness.

reply to post by CrimsonKapital


East = West

There is no difference. The people or corporations or trusts or families or whatever - they control both and thus control ALL....

Let me ask you this...where does the "west" end and the "east" begin? are we at war with "Eastasia" or "Eurasia"...or BOTH?

Oh nevermind the television has something on to distract me

Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by TheMatrixusesYou

 

Actually I would argue unions are a result of the business cycle.

The problem is saying workers demand better 'pay', but what they really demand is a bigger share of the profit.
Capitalists of course don't see it that way, and instead they increase prices in order to maintain profits. That causes the viscous cycle of higher prices leading to a demand for more pay to keep up. That is not the fault of the workers or the unions but of capitalism, and it's desire to make increasing profit.

Workers recognized the only way to protect their own interests, as a whole, was to organize. Unions are a necessity, not the problem. Without unions there would be no weekends, no 40 hour week, no vacations, no safety, no minimum wage. Imagine the industrial revolution...




Capitalism doesn't care about people, only exploiting them to make profit.

I respect that you share an opinion, so I can't attack you. I however adamantly disagree. I'm not even sure if I can come around to your way of thinking any time soon and don't know that there are any valid points to the defense of unions or similar gatherings of people. We don't need them anymore. Heck I'd argue that we didn't need them to begin with.

Doesn't it all boil down to each person makes the decision to do what they do each day? Where does it say that a person can't work 18 hours a day for $1? If you and a hundred others agree to do it, then you should honor that agreement. If you don't like working 18 hours for a dollar, work somewhere else or learn to provide a service to someone else so you can make just enough to make daily bread and water. You don't need anything else (I'm being very general to make a point).

Don't employees exploit their jobs in any way possible? I work with several who do and don't realize they are the exploiters. You have to see from another perspective. One you've not seen before.

Originally posted by draco49

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital
Okay I will give it to you, some things like the Bilderbergs probably do have some scheme of a world order in which they rule. But there are still many faults with the nwo, like for example, how come not one of the hundreds of thousands of files released from wikileaks had any reference to the nwo?
Now you could quite simply say well they too are just pawns, but for what purpose?

I would argue that many of the documents and files released by WikiLeaks relate to the activities and agenda put forth by these global entities. I wouldn't expect that you'd find a memo referencing "world domination" or explicitly outlined details of a nefarious plot. Rather, you'd find documentation of activities that, when taken in the context of the whole, paint a picture of some of what's going on. And if you look at the wikileaks documents, that's exactly what you do find. Also, I think that it's a good idea to remember that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Well no of course it wouldn't be printed in big bold letters like NWO, but still I don't recall any leaked documents containing information of a planned population cull, or things like that. I don't know of any activities that could possibly hint at a nefarious plot, but I believe you if you say there are. Awesome quote I'll have to write that one down.

Originally posted by TheMatrixusesYou
reply to post by nightbringr

 

This might sound crazy, but I'd put money on it that we nor any other nation would actually use nukes. I'm not even sure we can guarantee decent success. After learning that our landing on the moon was possibly faked and then seen the premise on which it could have been faked, I've been doubtful about our technological power and others. It could all be a grand hoax to keep people in fear. Power perceived is power achieved and we live and die by that principle.

Given how the US handles the space program and its security and secrecy, I think it's more likely that we did go to the moon but have not been given accurate imaging, data, and information about it. Every image that NASA releases to the public is vetted and scrubbed and there are numerous proven examples of image manipulation by the agency to back that up. Additionally, I suspect that we've been to the moon, and possibly elsewhere (Mars), many more times than we've been told about for reasons we can only speculate on.

When you look at the technological achievements humanity has publicly attained over the past 100 years, you have to wonder what stuff they're keeping secret in the name of "national security". For example, the publicly accessible GPS network is accurate to between 3-15 meters. I can't help but believe that the military version is even more accurate. That premise is supported by the government's own GPS website (www.gps.gov...). They admit that the military version is more accurate, but downplay it. I wouldn't be surprised if the military version is accurate to between 3-15 inches. When it comes to technology, the US has definitely got the best toys. They just won't let anyone else play with them.