Exposing the tragic fabrication of a saviour of the world

reply to post by racasan


They are more reliant on honor than we are. And there are many morals in their society that we would not tolerate.

reply to post by Fromabove

I love when we get to the " if there were no god would we be good, nice, law abiding citizens.." thing.

Yeah, me too. Because that's when I get to see drivel like the following.

Every human being has been given a conscience by God to know if they do right or wrong so that no one is without excuse.

You don't bother to mention the cultures throughout history who never knew your god, who figured out that in order to thrive as a civilization, they had to have rules. They had to have rights and wrongs.

And even if what you say above is true, that doesn't mean it is your version of god who put that knowledge and understanding there.

Would our species have survived without the church? Yes.

reply to post by Klassified


They got most of their morals from the conscience God gave to them, it didn't just pop into their heads. The book of Romans talks about this when it talks about people living by the law but not having actually heard about the law, and talks about the conscience. That they choose to give the credit to another god of their choosing can't undo the conscience built into mankind as a whole.


There is a difference between church and God. Religion is man's attempt to reach God. Jesus is God's attempt to reach man.

reply to post by Fromabove

And this is what happened after the fall. Man became his own god and from there on was war, killing, pillaging, incest, animal sex, and much more because he threw off God and sought to be as a god to himself.

That's where the fabricated World-view starts: The non-historic, non-scientific mythology that men were created by some being and that people recognized this being as the boss. That's mythology! Humanity didn't develop that way at all, neither did culture.

According to the myth: man rebelled, got scattered, and prophets were necessary for the transmission of truth from the god. When the prophets speak from the god, that's the rebel's chance to get right with the god, horrible consequences for those who continue in rebellion.

That's the sheerest mythology and superstition. Humanity existed before religion. That prophet/priest religion is for subjection of one people to another, that's all it is.

reply to post by windword


You could not be more wrong
"1) Jesus was born from a divine virgin, died for the sins of the world and was resurrected. He is god and the only way into heaven is to believe that story."
It has nothing to do with believing a story to get to heaven.
It has EVERYTHING to do with faith that I am forgiven and redeemed by His works and not my own.
That He lives in me and my light comes from the true light.
That nothing is good about me but Christ who lives through me.
I am but a beggar wanting to show other beggars where to find bread.
It's all about faith, whether it's misdirected or not.
It's not about believing a story? It's about a living Priest/King that has done what no other man ever did or could do.
It's about the Creator walking in the flesh among His own creation and setting things right that were made wrong.
He was born to a woman, a humble maiden.
He died the death that was meant for you and I, and conquered death in front of hundreds of eye witnesses. He has risen and is in the Holy of Holies as High Priest and is the only conduit provided for access to rebirth into the spirit where eternal life is found.
He is the door, the only door as by His works and blood alone is the free gift of salvation and redemption found.
Nobody is to be found spotless, not now or ever in the past but He. He was the lamb of God, spotless and without blemish.
He paid the price and no amount of good works can make you or I holy and presentable to a perfect and thrice Holy God.
He is our redeemer. Not works or exoteric knowledge will pass for the legal work accomplished by Him in Heaven and Earth.

reply to post by manna2


Go mutter to yourself in a corner. It would appear that with your capacity to think for yourself, that's all you're good for.

Seriously, since when was the Bible declared the sole source of logical arguments? All I see are Bible quotes being thrown like candy...never a personal opinion, or a viewpoint stated in the author's own words. It's always a parroted opinion, a parroted viewpoint. No deep-seated personal understanding that you had to fight for. That's what I have...truths that I have fought for, sat in isolated contemplation to find. And that's what you don't have. All you have are beliefs that were spoon-fed to you, beliefs that make you feel safe to walk outside.

Sheeple will be sheeple...they're too afraid and weak to be anything else. :bnghd:

reply to post by manna2


I am not wrong in saying that there are people who believe differently than you about the life and purpose of Jesus. I am one of them. Believe what you like, but I reject the premise of your religious doctrine.

reply to post by windword


I second that motion.

Anything that isn't based on the physical constants we see today...anything that clearly defies all scientific explanation and logical reasoning...is not accurate in my book.

Eliminate the impossible, and whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. - Sherlock Holmes

We just have a very difficult time accepting a truth that forces us to take responsibility and have courage in the face of the unknown...and will probably mandate a path that's a little rougher than we'd like.

reply to post by Starchild23


I walked the path of paganism for 35 years. I have yet to quote the Bible to you.
You are projecting onto me is all.
I have spent long hours that turned to weeks that turned to months that turned to years contemplating what truth is.
You fool only yourself with your petty accusations.
You attempt to elevate yourself in your every post. because you believe the lie? That you will be a god?
Because that is the way you attempt to elevate yourself at mine and others expense when you get confused about another persons due diligence.
You have rejected the chief cornerstone in building your gnostic belief system.

reply to post by Starchild23


You act like a little child and you claim to have courage?
Your belief system gets questioned by truth and you INSTANTLY break down to as hominum attacks and insults.
I am a strong, confident Christian male that has looked adversity in the eye and punched it in the face and have a lifetime of it to back up my walk.
You would NEVER talk to me in this insulting way face to face.
I call you out as the coward you now exemplify in your petty attacks on my person.

btw, I am a world beater. I suspect you live in your mothers basement. I have more charisma and self confidence than you will ever have. You rely on some esoteric grading on a curve where you think if you are better than another you mean something to the world.
I can tell by your tells that you are scared and alone and need to denigrate others to feel you are something.You spend more time in transference and projecting on these boards than you do on self analyzing and introspective thought. You have tells my friend, BIG ONES. You cannot fool someone who has done it. When you actually accomplish something that means something, as I have you will recognized the tells I am refering to.
In the meantime you cannot fool me, I know more than you in life and in the Spirit. I am not saying this to be proud, as you do. I tell you the truth in a way that cowards understand.
I am punching you down for the coward that you are trying to insult me and denigrate my person.
Like I said, you never EVER would talk to me this way in person...because it is you that acts cowardly. I would scare you to the marrow.

reply to post by manna2

reply to post by windword

Check out that link right there, it shows your previous post in which you all but quoted the Bible.

I won't bother answering the rest of your accusatory post. All it's doing is attacking me without providing a shred of logic or evidence in your favor. So much for your presumed "innocence" in this matter.

reply to post by manna2

I am punching you down for the coward that you are trying to insult me and denigrate my person.
Like I said, you never EVER would talk to me this way in person...because it is you that acts cowardly. I would scare you to the marrow.

What the .......? Are you suggesting that the truth of a theory be based on Trial by Combat? That's quite Medieval of you!

I can't see where you've offered any rational proof of anything. Any of us can read the "accepted authorized scripture" for themselves, and many of us have over decades. But the question remains, fact or fiction?

The Quest for the Historical Israel, Debating Archaeology and the History of Early Israel, Israel Finkelstein and Amihai Mazar

I would summarize by listing the following guidelines for a viable recon-
struction of the early history of Israel:
1. Archaeology is the only real-time witness to many of the events
described in the biblical text, mainly for the pre-ninth-century b.c.e.
formative periods.
2. Biblical history cannot be read as a modern chronicle. It is dominated
by the theological and ideological themes of the authors.
3. Biblical history cannot be read in a simplistic way, from early to late.
Rather, the point of departure must be a thorough knowledge of the
social, economic, and geopolitical realities of the composition period
in late-monarchic times (and later, in some cases).
4. There are many old stories in the text, but they are described in a way
that fits the ideology of the later authors.
5. Many of the texts are comprised of several layers; only archaeology
and extra-biblical sources can help identify and separate them.
6. The starting point for the compilation of the biblical text is the sudden
growth of Judah to full statehood as a direct outcome of the fall of
the Northern Kingdom and the integration of Judah into the global
economy of the Assyrian Empire.

Had such guidelines been applied from the outset of the modern biblical-his-
torical enterprise, we would not have wasted a century on futile research.
- - pages 19,20

The same goes for New Testament research, and whether Jesus of Christianity was or was not a fictional character just as "King Solomon's Glory" is pure fiction.

So far you haven't even tried to prove or offer evidence of anything, except you are scarier than we are.

reply to post by Fromabove

They got most of their morals from the conscience God gave to them, it didn't just pop into their heads.

But you, a page or so ago, said that others who are not of YOUR faith don't recognize it...they can't....and won't.

You can't have it both ways. Either morals are possible without Jesus Christ (my stance), or they're not(your stance).

EDIT:
And you got REALLY close to derailing the thread, but failed. Congrats for that. Humans have a conscience, a moral barometer....that has existed since the very beginning of "social species" living. There can be no denial of that. Individuals in a pack cooperate. I live with one human, two dogs, and three cats. We all get along....day after day, without saying to each other, "you're ignorant and wrong."

I'd like to do a poll, really....to find out how many hard-core Christians have pets living in their homes.

Any reasonable adult who has read various points of view, and is open-minded to those points of view, has to wonder if the story of Jesus Christ might be fabricated. I don't want to accept this, because for 53 years I have believed he DID exist....for whatever fictional stories they told, at least he did exist.

All of the magical hocus pocus Eucharistical stuff and Resurrection miracle...yeah, all of that I haven't believed EVER. And I was attending church longer than I have a memory of.....since infancy. Until I arrived in adolescence and said:
"Wait.
What?"

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by St Udio

 

the 12th century shroud was the actual burial cloth of the crucified Jesus, but was sent forward in time/space so that the mystery of the 'Christ' could become awesome...

I agree with everything you said except this one sentence above. Sent forward in time/space is unnecessary.

let me point out that my scenario is in accord with the Jesus person not being supernatural/Divine but had assistance by both mortals with a religious agenda and the assistance of some outside source (Angels/Aliens/Demons...take your pick) to place the burial shroud in another era...for the purpose of making the Mystery of Faith a very real thing!


so, in my plot... Jesus was a deluded but committed individual...but with a messianic complex that is commonly known to modern phychology/psychiatry
but aided and assisted (after his death) by both mundane mortal men and some metaphysical forces which we have a hard time proving exist in real science terms.... to become a larger-than-life Myth or even Archtype


i choose to think that exceptional events need extraordinary help in becoming reality.... Jesus as a redeemer/savior/messiah/son-of-god is just one exceptional event... not because it is fact--but Christianity has convinced billions of people to be for-or-against it's belief system

S&F for a well done and well reasoned thread. I am enjoying reading this to no end. Not too wild about the baseless ad homs but overall very interesting for those of us on the journey. Thank you, OP!

I just cannot read something when someone can't even get their facts straight, whether I support what they're saying or not. Presenting the claim that Nazareth didn't exist in the 1st century blatantly overlooks the consensus among scholars of the name's origin, as well as ignores the fact that Nazareth is mentioned in texts from the 1st century AD, and even earlier depending on if one supports the dating done on certain manuscripts. Fail.

A long time ago I did read of cases of human Parthenogenesis. The child was always female, always an exact copy of the mother, and having no Y chromosome, was also always sterile.

As to the Golden Rule:
The sentiment behind the Golden Rule of moral reciprocity is an ancient idea:
"Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself."
-Confucius, circa 500 BCE

The idea that without the church/religion humans would rape, rob, pillage etc. is Total Nonsense.
(Maybe you are speaking of your own inner feelings?)
For as long as humans have lived together and long before there was writing, there have been a codes of behavior.

The first or one of the first written codes/laws was the Code of Hammurabi - 1700BCE
www.commonlaw.com...

Jesus’ birth, death and resurrection are a rehash of ancient Sun Myths.

www.revradiotowerofsong.org...&_Christ.htm

Age of Pisces Traits or Values Must Go Before the Transition to Aquarius
www.2012-spiritual-growth-prophecies.com...

Therefore we have much Christian-bashing, and threads like this.

reply to post by St Udio

let me point out that my scenario is in accord with the Jesus person not being supernatural/Divine but had assistance by both mortals with a religious agenda and the assistance of some outside source (Angels/Aliens/Demons...take your pick) to place the burial shroud in another era...for the purpose of making the Mystery of Faith a very real thing!

I'm not denying that at all.....
I think he had assistance by both....mortals (Essene masters) and divinity (angels, god, ethereal spirit).
I think the Shroud was hidden for all those centuries, just like the Nag Hammadi texts.....

and now that we are aware, we should update the scriptures to reflect as much.

reply to post by OhZone


Actually, no one knows the exact origin of the Golden Rule.

Although I will admit, Confucius is an excellent source of wisdom.

reply to post by St Udio

so, in my plot... Jesus was a deluded but committed individual...but with a messianic complex that is commonly known to modern phychology/psychiatry
but aided and assisted (after his death) by both mundane mortal men and some metaphysical forces which we have a hard time proving exist in real science terms.... to become a larger-than-life Myth or even Archtype

i choose to think that exceptional events need extraordinary help in becoming reality.... Jesus as a redeemer/savior/messiah/son-of-god is just one exceptional event... not because it is fact--but Christianity has convinced billions of people to be for-or-against it's belief system

THANKS for participating. I agree with you completely.