911 Terrorists on trial. Do you want Justice or Revenge?

reply to post by tothetenthpower
I was never conditioned to believe that killing was good, no soldier I've ever met was conditioned to think killing was good. It is sometimes neccessary. Your morals apparently won't allow you to accept that. If you don't think that those of us who served were fighting for your rights move to the middle east and maybe you will understand. If there wasn't a line of defense against these and other fanatics you would already be enslaved or dead. Did we do damage? Certainly, but so does a surgeon's scalpel when it cuts away cancer.

Please, elaborate on which of my rights were threatened by anyone in the Middle East...

reply to post by miniatus
That's just a matter of perspective isn't it? Just like Justice vs. revenge...

reply to post by jlm912
You have to understand that the goal of these extremists is world domination under their religion (or under their version of their religion) they don't want to control just their countries they mean to spread their grasp across the entire world and it's join them or die.Thats it, join us or die.If you could only see the truth of this it might change your perspective.They have no interest in live and let live.

reply to post by abe froman


And how is that different from the agenda your country has been blasting all across the globe for over 50 years ??

Their intention doesn't validate their ability. Preemptive speculation, at best, is what you put before me. And I'm to believe that is "truth?"

reply to post by GrinchNoMore
Because with us you get color TVs, air conditioning, and blue jeans.

Originally posted by abe froman
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

I was never conditioned to believe that killing was good, no soldier I've ever met was conditioned to think killing was good. It is sometimes neccessary. Your morals apparently won't allow you to accept that. If you don't think that those of us who served were fighting for your rights move to the middle east and maybe you will understand. If there wasn't a line of defense against these and other fanatics you would already be enslaved or dead. Did we do damage? Certainly, but so does a surgeon's scalpel when it cuts away cancer.

Fair enough, I'll admit my comments were a bit over the top and I apologize, my intent is not to offend only to provide understanding that torturing those who do us harm will give us nothing, other than a more tarnished reputation.

And actually I have been to the Middle East, met hundreds of people from there and they are just like me and you.

Their government is the problem, just like it is for us on this end.

And no, I would not be enslaved or dead, as no Middle Eastern Nation has started any wars with the West...ever.

They've started wars among each other for various different reasons and sure assisting them was probably in our best interest at the time, but nothing post 9/11 has been helpfull in the fight against extremism.

We are loosing the wars for good reason, because we are doing it wrong. Even the hard right GOP is in agreement that Afghanistan is a failed war and so was Iraq until somebody had the good decency of ending combat operations.

( I don't give that credit to POTUS but to the military brass who hounded POTUS to get out of there.)

At the very least it's great that you know that we did more damage. IMO it was more damage than good, ad the hundreds of thousands of dead civilians would probably agree with me.

~Tenth

Originally posted by jlm912
Their intention doesn't validate their ability. Preemptive speculation, at best, is what you put before me. And I'm to believe that is "truth?"

So if you know I intend to kill you it's ok because you don't think I can?

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Backed by the CIA; Creation of Al-Queda and OBL as CIA asset.

The Gulph War;

Dessert Storm

Desert Fox

• The Gulf War - a war between two Islamic nations - Iran and Iraq.

How does the USA get the blame for that?

• Dessert Storm - the Allies were invited in by the Saudis, while Kuwait, Saudi, Egyptian, Syrian, Moroccan, UAE, Oman and Qatar forces fought with the Americans to liberate Kuwait.

To characterise the gulf war as American aggression against the Islamic world is illogical in the extreme. Much of the Islamic world was on the US side.

• Desert Fox - strikes against Saddam Husain in 1998 to to degrade Saddam Hussein's ability to make and to use weapons of mass destruction.

Iraq's Islamic neighbours were more than happy to see Saddam Husain ability to make and to use weapons of mass destruction degraded. See the Gulf war above when Iraq invaded Kuwait and most of the Arab world sided with the USA to liberate it.


To get back to your original point and my response. What myriad of US aggression against the Islamic world dating back to the 70s?

reply to post by tothetenthpower
I agree 100% that it's not the people who are the problem it is our governments (or "leadership") that creates the strife. As far as the middle east never starting a war against any western nation, there are many nations that would disagree with you.

Originally posted by abe froman
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

I was never conditioned to believe that killing was good

You're apparently conditioned to think killing is above due process of the law.. as a veteran who fought for a country founded on freedom and human rights, you should be ashamed of that. The bottom line is you've decided that a few humans no longer deserve life and you'd like to see due process chucked out the window... That's an emotional response, it's irrational, immoral and not what our country stands for.

It's no wonder we have such a bad reputation on the world stage

reply to post by abe froman


Not because I don't think you can, but until you've tried, who am I to preemptively kill you before giving you the chance to change your mind? Once you've tried, then is it crime against my right to life. Until then, rhetoric is empty, and I'd do naught but to prepare defense.

reply to post by ollncasino


Ok, so here's the problem.

Me and YOU might not see this as "Military Agression" as they were projects that required a response ( could be debated) however to religious extremists, those are all acts of war.

Any interference by Western or European nations in ME affairs is considered to be an act of war on those people, according to them.

I'm sorry if I came off like those were actually military escapades that were designed to dethrown the middle east, but to them they were.

~Tenth

Originally posted by abe froman
You have to understand that the goal of these extremists is world domination under their religion.

Indeed. While most Muslims are peaceful, Wahhabi terrorists follow the teachings of their founder, Muhammad very closely.

Koran 9:29

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Koran

Allah's Apostle said:

"I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle."

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, number 24

"I was ordered to fight all men until they say 'There is no god but Allah."

Prophet Muhammad's farewell address, March 632

Islamic Imperialism: A History by Efraim Karsh

yalepress.yale.edu...

Wahhabi terrorists are merely following a literal interpretation of what Muhammad, blessed be his name, told them to do as revealed in the divine Koran and holy Hadith.

reply to post by miniatus
I NEVER said anything against due process. I defend everyones right to due process. My Justice/Revenge question is for after due process has been seen through.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Any interference by Western or European nations in ME affairs is considered to be an act of war on those people, according to them.

I'm sorry if I came off like those were actually military escapades that were designed to dethrown the middle east, but to them they were.

You make a good point.

What should the USA do?

Support its allies in the Middle East when they ask for help or refuse to help because Wahhabi terrorists will consider it an act of war?

tothetenthpower is correct in that the United States does in fact have a long history of meddling in the middle east... one pf the biggest examples of this is the fact we armed what later became known as Al Queda.. we trained them and armed them.. Why? because we wanted Russia out of the region and rather than take Russia directly, we used the local population to fight that battle.. Those freedom fighters in turn used their new found training and expensive US artillery against their enemies in the region..

And ofcourse the whole Iran revolution before that.. or what about the Iran contra affair later on? anyone remember that? where our government approved a secret operation to provide arms to Iran but which later exploded in our face and became public knowledge? Why? we were using Iran to fight Iraq ...

We absolutely have a history of causing problems in the middle east... and many there hold a grudge..

reply to post by jlm912
Once you tell me you want to kill me, it's on, at that moment. If you announce your intention to kill me (as these people have over and over) any act by me against you is self defense. In the words of my uncle "don't let your alligator mouth write a check your butterfly posterior can't cash".