The Bane of Being a "Friend."

I write this with a very heavy heart in hopes that maybe one or two of you can give me some truly insightful advice.

Many of you know me for my paranormal advice and threads, but I'm reaching out for help.

Here's the gist:

I befriended a woman my age about 9 months ago. She was dating an acquaintance of mine, and we soon became friends. When her boyfriend moved back to his state of origin, I was "tasked" with keeping an eye out for her while he was away. We became quick friends due to common interests, intellectual conversations, and the like. Things started going downhill between them, and I found myself being the person that was just kinda "there." They broke up shortly before Christmas, and I ended up being the one to "catch" her. I never asked to be put in that position. Being the person that I am, I just naturally fall into those types of roles. Up to that point, my life was pretty much on track. I was dating various people on a casual basis, and really enjoying life. Over the course of a few months, we began getting closer. We finally kissed one night, and a few weeks after that I told her how I felt about the whole situation and asked her to date me. She, of course, was still hung up on her ex, so I let things go wherever they were to go. After that night, I noticed a distinctive change in her attitude toward me. We still got together on a weekly basis, sharing lunch, coffee, and even some dinner dates. I thought that if I just waited a little bit longer, and kept showing some interest, that she would eventually come around.

That was my first mistake.

I woke up one morning about a month ago and realized that I was in love with her...the kind of love that drives people crazy if not kept in check. I wanted to be around her, I wanted to smell her hair, I wanted hug her, and do good things for her. I could see that there were signs that she was feeling the same way, but being the type of person that always plays things close to the chest, I didn't do anything about it. Then, last week, came the infamous "friend zone" question: "What do you think about 'so and so'." I told her I didn't even know who that was, but the person fit the bill for the same type of people that hurt her in the past.

Look, I'm just a regular run-of-the-mill guy. I work out, I enjoy socializing, I'm trying as hard as I can to transform my body (which is working, mind you), and I have a wonderful network of friends who keep my life interesting. I have gone through situations like this before, but for some reason, this one hurts more. This is the kind of hurt that I have a very hard time dealing with. I'm functioning, I'm alive, and I'm breathing. That's all I can ask for, right?

Wrong.

I want more. I want that deep connection with another (which I know we share....we talked about it before), but now I fear I have gone and screwed it all up. I sent a drunk text message (my second mistake) the other night stating, in a non-confrontational matter, that I needed some time to reevaluate my feelings toward her. I said that I can't be in the "friend zone" because of the way that I feel about her. I can't help feeling that way, and I feel as if my hand was forced with that dreaded question. I think deep down that I saw it coming. I'm the stereotypical "guy who falls in love with his friend" type. For some reason, however, this feels different (I've learned to trust my senses). Others could see what was going on. Others even asked me if we were dating, and I had to tell them that I didn't know what we were. What we shared was real (even if we didn't really speak about it), and if I have to give up my happiness so that she can find hers, I'm somehow strangely okay with that. I shouldn't be, but I am. I guess I always take the high road.

I feel as if I'm somehow being selfish. Why should I rain on her potential happiness with my garbage? I know I shouldn't feel that way, but I do. I've spent the majority of my life forsaking my own happiness for others, and now when mine is being threatened, I feel lost. I have nothing to fall back on, and I fear that I have lost her from my life. I just need time to get over these emotions. This woman makes me feel alive in a way that I have rarely experienced. My life was fine before her, and it will be fine after her, but for some reason I can't let her go. I know it's early, but if you knew me, you'd know that things like this don't bother me for very long. I heal, I move on...a bit more jaded, but I move on.

I just wish I could sit down with her and spill everything....not some abbreviated version that I gave her before, but the whole thing.


I think that I not only ruined a friendship, but I have struck out on another chance for true happiness...



...and I have to live with that.


Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? She never responded to my text message, and using my own "abilities" I can feel that she is upset about this. I was her rock in the toughest time of her life, and now I feel like I'm deserting her, even though that's the furthest from the truth. Am I being selfish for telling her about all of this when her life is in a huge changing point right now (graduating, still heartbroken over the last guy, etc.)?

Sometimes I think things are better left unsaid, or as my avatar states "The Truth is Better Left Unseen."


Hopefully a few of you can give me some good advice. This is the first time in my life where I'm openly asking for help.




-TS

reply to post by truthseeker1984

Hi, well I don't think this is about the friendship as I married my best friend and we are together 12 years now and happy. But we had both been in bad relationships before and they were based largely on passion. Our relationship is warm and friendly and loving, just the sex is not passionate it is sharing.

If the friend you speak of was looking at you as a maybe partner she would say so, she clearly has not been seeing you in this light. if you cannot be her friend only and see her date other guys and wait and hope eventually she will see the HUGE value in a relationship based on just the things you have together, then you must move on.

You will only be hurt again and again and eventually suffer loss of your self esteem and maybe lose your respect for her also.

In a nutshell?

Your a beta.

She wants alpha.

That simple. Only a beta gets suckered into the friend zone.

Sorry, thats harsh. But the truth is it doesnt matter how old they are, they will pick up an alpha in a second and dangle on the line for months.

Betas never get anything or get anywhere.

reply to post by truthseeker1984


I think perhaps you have fallen victim to "chemistry", that is a distinct lack of it on the lady's part.

Sorry to be so blunt, and insensitive (I gotta work on that, no wonder I'm single), I have reading quite a lot about this recently (I'll explain in a mo), and a lot of the time, I have come across scenario's where there is a kiss, but past that point nothing, regardless of how much the persons in question like each other, if the spark isn't there, it isn't there.

For you the chemistry is right, and you are feeling the spark, but unfortunately it sounds as though she hasn't felt it.

If it's any consellation, I feel for your situation, we all just want somebody special in our lives, the one who makes our hearts sing, but it needs the right heady mix to make it work, and its one of those things which just ...well.....sparks.

I am having a similar problem, in that I feel there is one person in particular that I desire, but its not a viable option for various good reasons, and to be honest I have no idea how they feel about me, but the other week he touched my arm, and I felt the "spark" just a fleeting moment, a nanosecond, but for me the question is if I felt something physical when he touched my arm, was he aware that something happend in me ?

Is it something both partie feel simulatneously ?

Or could he have gauged a reaction from me ?

Because the next time I saw him, he never spoke to me to say hello/ morning like he normally does, in fact it was as though I didn't exist

Hmmm, maybe I'm not the best person to advise on matters of the heart, but hey I hope I have helped a little, I don't want to de-rail the thread, but a little feedback from a male perspective would be good

reply to post by Shadowalker


I agree that I have a very "beta like" personality, but my actions speak of "alpha" (I hide the beta very well). I'm very versed in the works of Pook, and other PUA's.

I understand that I wasn't in the "friend zone" at first, and I did everything right....playing right from the book, so to speak. I'm trying to understand where in my interactions with her I went wrong. I honestly don't think it's my fault this time. I'll freely admit that it's happened in the past, but this particular instance is different from the rest.

Who knows.

No offense taken.


-TS

reply to post by Shadowalker


I don't see anything to indicate he is a beta, not that I actually see anything wrong with that.
He ended up in the "friend zone" cause she was dating his buddy when they became friends.

It's painful to fall in Love with someone that doesn't return those feelings, and he stepped up, took a risk, told her his feelings at the risk of losing the friendship, plus facing rejection. That took alot of courage.

My advice would be to give her "space" to work through her feelings, and allow her to reach out when and if she is ready. She might end up really missing you and may want to start dating at some point too! If not, like you said, you'll be happy again, but boy it hurts while your in the "throws" of feelings you can't control....Good Luck OP, sent some good thoughts your way......

Thanks for all the insightful posts. I'm somehow okay with what has happened. If she truly wants something (which I think somewhere she does), then she'll come back, if not, I'll get over myself, and we'll continue to be friends. I normally only take a week to get over stuff like this, but I might give myself two in this case.



-TS

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
reply to post by Shadowalker

 

I don't see anything to indicate he is a beta, not that I actually see anything wrong with that.
He ended up in the "friend zone" cause she was dating his buddy when they became friends.

It's painful to fall in Love with someone that doesn't return those feelings, and he stepped up, took a risk, told her his feelings at the risk of losing the friendship, plus facing rejection. That took alot of courage.

My advice would be to give her "space" to work through her feelings, and allow her to reach out when and if she is ready. She might end up really missing you and may want to start dating at some point too! If not, like you said, you'll be happy again, but boy it hurts while your in the "throws" of feelings you can't control....Good Luck OP, sent some good thoughts your way......

Thanks for your post. It really does make me feel a whole heap better. I'm giving myself the "space," because, to be honest, she was the one always texting, calling, making plans, etc. I know she wanted to be around me, which is why I felt that there were certain underlying feelings that were never really made light. That's my fault for not saying something sooner. I guess I towed the line too long and ended up losing the "fish."

Yes, telling her how I felt took all of the courage that I had, mostly because I value her as a friend. I feel, however, that if one bottles those emotions up for too long, they eventually explode at the most inopportune time. I'm just hoping I didn't lose her friendship over this as well.


-TS

reply to post by truthseeker1984


I know as a woman, going through a rough break-up right now, has left me unable and not wanting to date again, lol, actually at the moment feels like I'm never going to go there again.

If the man of my dreams walked through my front door right now, I wouldn't be able to see it, cause it's not the guy I'm still not over, they say time heals all wounds, lol, sure hard though when it's all still fresh

reply to post by truthseeker1984

My first instinct was to tell you to grow a pair! But then I thought that is not helpful in the least. So I'll give you MHO. First, if she is not attracted to you in a "more than friends" way, then forget about it. The more you try, the less she'll think of you. IMO she is probably a little damaged, where she is attracted to the guys that will hurt her. There is nothing you can do about it, that is something that she has to work out on her own. Next, you sound like your a little too consumed with her. Thinking about her all the time, the way her hair smells, etc... That is the stuff of a good romance movie, but it is just fantasy. A "real" love comes over time, caring about one another future, hopes, hopes and aspirations. After a few months, the fact that you feel that strongly about her is probably not healthy for you. If you believe in reincarnation, maybe you have some past life issue with her where you feel like she is the one for you. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't, but whining and pining over her isn't going to get you there. I think its fine to have female friends, but clearly it will drive you nuts, so my advice is to just cut her loose for your own sanity. Whatever happens will happen.Maybe she'll come back to you., maybe you'll find someone else who truly loves you and wants the best for you. Who knows, but you need to relax and let it go.

And now that I've thought about it, I read somewhere about there being two more types of males; subsets, if you will, of the main two branches:

Delta Males: These kind of guys put off a good front of acting like they're "Alpha males" by conforming into whatever is fashionable and admired by the masses. Most of these men (if you can call them that) need a lot of assurance by society to the point of having little backbone to think for themselves. Sure, many Delta males are surrounded by "friends" and are good at get their fair share of girls by "wooing" them with some pop-culture nonsense (whether it's A&F-style gauche preppiness or poser hip-hop wannabe thuggishness), but that crowd and attention is more imperative for their self-esteem than anything else. For if you take away all of the girls from them and get these same males by themselves, a Delta male's personality completely changes and their "true self" is revealed. Many of these kind of guys are rather weak-minded, crowd-pleasing, conformists who aren't even worthy of the name "Covert Betas" and "Betas in the Closet."

Gamma Males: These kind of dudes are more or less self-reliant, self-motivated, and self-assured in their own personality that no one can change their ways. Some of these kind of males are considered loners, but this is not to case for all Gamma Males. Because of their stern personality, many people tend to write off these men as "Betas" by default because they won't conform to being whatever "Chic Alpha" trait exists during that time period. The man who's confident in his own self-worth and looks is said to go a long way with what women want. But as for recent times (I'll say since the early 2000s), most females are more impressed with being "wooed" with inane attributes, something that most Gamma males will refuse to do unless their original personality is what woos the female. These men, until recently, have had no problems getting with "American females" but recently, even these males are getting thrown in the "weak male" shelf because of their lack of conforming to the masses. Though getting women - even in today's time - isn't as much of a problem as it is for the "stereotypical Alpha Male," this is still a concern for quite a few Gamma males who were either born too recent (those in their teens and twenties) or those who live in areas where narcissism and American pop-culture rule the minds of the masses. Read more: www.city-data.com...

I'm the Gamma male, or at least in part. I don't conform to all the A&E crap, or the MTV crowd. I'm me, and that's about all I know how to be. I could easily pick up another girl if I wanted, but with 30 creeping closer by the day, I figured that it was time to start looking to settle down. I don't want any more "pick ups." I know what I want, and I'm bullheaded enough to go get it. I'm also not a loner. I have a great group of friends, as I stated in the OP, and I'm very social. I just got put into an unfortunate situation.

Maybe I should start looking overseas?



-TS

It was the involvement of her with another guy and your transitioning as the stand in/friend that painted you a beta in her eyes. That was the slip up.

Now if your keeping your own space and taking control of the group and room as well as being in control of your interactions then she may have felt completely different.

But you need to find a mate so its time to cut your apron strings and let that bird fly. Tell her your dating other women. Make it clear your busy most of the time now. Let her calls and txt sit for a day. Thats your only chance at strategy. In one out of five the girl could come around. Its not a total lost cause, but in the mean time date and avoid the friend zone.

reply to post by BravoBull


Typical machismo response.


No, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I felt that by explaining the whole story, and explaining how much time we spent together would help outline my dilemma. I'm not necessarily pining, more just annoyed at myself. Things happen for a reason, and perhaps my actions will somehow make me better in the long run. Every mistake is a learning lesson.

In either case, thanks for your response.


-TS

reply to post by MountainLaurel


I also wouldn't be so quick to assume that because of the kiss you shared that never went further, that there could never be "chemistry" on her part at some point.

If I kissed another man at this point it would still feel like "cheating" to me, lol, I doubt my ex feels the same way..ouch....that hurts bad.

As a woman, I'd like to put my opinion in about this.

The way I am seeing it, from what you wrote in your post, this gal likes you as a friend, and you were a handy and understanding "emotional tampon" for her to use.

Once you tried to add dimension and depth to your "relationship" (which appears really one-sided to me, with her doing all the taking and you all the giving), she used the "still hung up on the ex" routine to dash your hopes.

She liked you when she could use you to cry about the ex, but that's it. Now you want more, you have developed feelings, and it is clear that she doesn't want a relationship with you now that she knows you want to pursue her romantically.

It is of little use at this point to think about all the ways you may have messed up, and it does no good to torture yourself over thoughts of "what if I had done X instead of Y".

Look at it this way: If a woman wants you, you can screw up pretty bad and still get her. If she doesn't want you, you could do everything perfectly and still get rejected. Sometimes it happens that way. Chemistry and infatuation is more often a one way street than a two way street, and the vast majority of us on this site have had at least one painful case of unrequited love.

You already know what to do. Leave her alone, learn from it, and move on with your life. Find somebody who appreciates a man who cares, instead of one who uses you for your kindness and then dumps you like a hot potato because you want something in return.

Just for what it's worth... It seems by the way you describe things that you either consciously or subconsciously view this as a game or sport by using terms like playing close to the vest, forcing your hand, and catching the fish. It also seems like you think you have above average skills or perhaps extra sensory skills in "reading" people. Whether any of that is true is basically only a side note. What is clearly lacking in your approach is direct honest communication. It seems you've attempted to set up a scenario built in your mind which never works because that would imply you have more control over the situation than her. You also contradicted yourself by first saying multiple times that you messed up then you flipped and said you didn't think it was your fault...

Anyway, to the point... I'll be blunt... I think you are trying to portray yourself in a certain light using self depricating comments but then listing all your great qualities as if somehow you've been used or taken advantage of. I think there's way more to you and this situation than you're letting on, which means if you can't be straight even with yourself, you're not going to get any real assistance with this thread.

I'm a professional counselor and I think you're attention seeking with all of this. I don't see any genuine wish for assistance here. Sorry if I come off harsh but I just call it as I see it and that's what is plainly obvious based on your posts. If you really do want advice then I'll give you some: quit approaching such situations as a game with your "tactics" "analyzation" etc. be real and communicate openly and honestly. No sense in drawing out the dramatics when you can cut to the chase and get the answers you say you want from this woman instead of "fishing" for a few cheap ego strokes on ATS.

reply to post by SilverStarGazer


That was harsh, why is him reaching out here any different then coming to see you as a counsler? He's working through his feelings, evaluating his motives and needs, and maintaining his self esteem by saying some nice things about himself...nothing wrong with any of that.

people use game terms all the time while describing thier experiences, I use poker terms all the time, "going all-in", "had to fold that hand" etc.

I hope your nicer to the people you counsil.

reply to post by MountainLaurel


One of the main things is reading between the lines and looking for patterns and inconsistencies. I know that it may seem innocuous on the surface, and that is the skill in more sophisticated attention seekers. There are plenty of people who will react as you and therefore the cycle continues. Blowing smoke up peoples rear ends won't help them at all... In fact it only encourages the behavior. He asked for opinions, I gave mine. It's a take it or leave it situation as with every opinion on the Internet.

Originally posted by SilverStarGazer
Just for what it's worth... It seems by the way you describe things that you either consciously or subconsciously view this as a game or sport by using terms like playing close to the vest, forcing your hand, and catching the fish.

I only use those terms so it's easier to understand this situation. I don't "play" people if that's what you're implying. I'm actually a very genuine person, and if you were in my social network, you'd agree. The term "playing close to the vest" is one that I use quite often, because of some deep seeded issues that I wish not to discuss in a public forum.

It also seems like you think you have above average skills or perhaps extra sensory skills in "reading" people. Whether any of that is true is basically only a side note. What is clearly lacking in your approach is direct honest communication. It seems you've attempted to set up a scenario built in your mind which never works because that would imply you have more control over the situation than her. You also contradicted yourself by first saying multiple times that you messed up then you flipped and said you didn't think it was your fault...

As a counselor, you should also know that people contradict themselves all the time. I'm no different. Having this sort of thing hanging over one's head can do a number on one's psyche. View it as a stream of consciousness. I look at all avenues when approaching a topic such as this, and in my current state of mind, I don't know left from right. And for the record, I did give direct, honest communication, and there was a modicum of intention on her part, which as I have seen, fell through. The scenario in my head, as you have said, was one that wouldn't have been there had I not felt that there was at least a chance of furthering a relationship.

As far as my extra sensory skills, yes, they are there, and they have been honed after doing a people watching project in grad school with my computer science colleague. I've picked up on subtle cues in body language, voice patterns, etc. I find the behavior fascinating.

Anyway, to the point... I'll be blunt... I think you are trying to portray yourself in a certain light using self depricating comments but then listing all your great qualities as if somehow you've been used or taken advantage of. I think there's way more to you and this situation than you're letting on, which means if you can't be straight even with yourself, you're not going to get any real assistance with this thread.

I don't think I was taken advantage of at all. I have no ill-will toward this woman, nor to her current beau, if you want to call him that. I have been quite upfront with what went on. There were no indications that she didn't harbor any sort of feelings for me outside of a friendship, until the "question," that is. So, I was literally caught of guard when she popped that question, which is why I find myself in the situation that I'm in at the current time.

I'm a professional counselor and I think you're attention seeking with all of this. I don't see any genuine wish for assistance here. Sorry if I come off harsh but I just call it as I see it and that's what is plainly obvious based on your posts. If you really do want advice then I'll give you some: quit approaching such situations as a game with your "tactics" "analyzation" etc. be real and communicate openly and honestly. No sense in drawing out the dramatics when you can cut to the chase and get the answers you say you want from this woman instead of "fishing" for a few cheap ego strokes on ATS.

I'm actually not seeking any sort of attention. I was looking for direct and honest answers, which people have been more than willing to share. I find that asking anonymous people about all different types of matters can be easier than reiterating the same things with my circle of friends. I'm sorry if some of my later posts came off as being "tactical" or "gaming," but I find that interjecting humor in these situations can alleviate stress about them (hence bringing up those points). The responses have actually helped me, including yours. I do appreciate your comments on communication. It is a skill that I have a hard time with (at least with those that I have a genuine interest in), and when I finally did get enough courage to say something, I took a risk and put all my chips in the pot, so to speak. So I lost. We rebuild and go on. I was genuinely looking for some advice and answers. I do appreciate what you said, and I may contact you further if you're willing to help a fellow ATS'er out.



-TS

reply to post by SilverStarGazer


It's certainly your right to share your thoughts on the OP's questions, he asked for other's thoughts, and you shared yours. For myself, I don't see how kicking someone when they are down is very helpful, and does not indicate that person is a more "sophistcated seeker".

He spoke from the heart and I responded from the heart....not blowing smoke up anyone's rear.....