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The Lord's prayer; even the experts disagree on one key word.

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posted on May, 6 2012 @ 07:43 PM
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Most everyone who has had a Christian upbringing has had the Lord's prayer pounded into their head until they can recite it by heart without even thinking. Its strange to find out that experts don't know what one of the key phrases in the prayer even means.

The problem occurs from a word in the original Greek which doesn't exist anywhere in ancient Greek.


A Hidden, Mysterious, and Much Debated Word in the Our Father

The mysterious word occurs right in the middle of the prayer: τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον (ton arton hēmōn ton epiousion) which is rendered most usually as “give us this day our daily bread.” The problematic word is epiousion. The difficulty is that the word seems to exist nowhere else in ancient Greek, and that no one really knows what it means.

Even the Greek Fathers who spoke and wrote Greek as their mother-tongue were unaware of it’s exact meaning. It occurs no where else in the Bible (with the exception of the parallel passage in Luke’s version of the Our Father in Luke 11:3). It appears nowhere in wider Greek literature, whether Christian or Pagan. The early Church Father Origen, a most learned and well read man, thought that Matthew and Luke, or the early Church had “made up” or coined the term.

Archdiocese of Washington

Here are the expert's best guesses as to how to interpret that word:


1. Grammatical Analysis- The Greek word seems to be a compound word from epi+ousios. Now epi means over, above, beyond, in addition to, or some similar superlative. Ousious refers to the substance of something. Hence, to put these words together we have something amounting to supersubstantial, or super-essential.

2. The Eucharist

3. Ordinary and daily bread

4. Bread for tomorrow

5. Supernatural bread – But St. Jerome also says in the same place: We can also understand supersubstantial bread in another sense as bread that is above all substances and surpasses all creatures (ibid). In this sense he also seems to see it linked to the Eucharist. When he translated the text into Latin as the Pope had asked him to do he rendered it rather literally: panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie (give us today our supersubstantial bread). If you look up the text of Matthew 6:11 in the Douay Rheims Bible you will see the word “supersubstantial” since that English text renders the Vulgate Latin quite literally.

6. Every good thing necessary for subsistence

Reverencing the Mystery – But perhaps the Lord intended that we should ponder this text and see a kind of multiple meaning. Surely it is right that we should pray for our worldly food. Likewise we should pray for all that is needed for subsistence, whether just for today or for tomorrow as well. And surely we should ask for the Bread of Life, the Holy Eucharist which is the necessary Bread that draws us to eternal life and which (Who) is over and above all earthly substances.


I never knew there was an issue with the prayer until I read this article. It seems weird that that Jesus would use an unfamiliar word in the prayer He taught to His people but, maybe the article is right; it is meant to keep us contemplating what it is we should really be praying for; Earthly sustenance or the spiritual fruits that will help us achieve salvation.




posted on May, 6 2012 @ 07:52 PM
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reply to post by FortAnthem
 


It could also be assumed that because two different writers used the same unusual word, when the actual writings were distanced apart in time, that they were quoting a word or phrase not invented by the writers, but actually invented by Jesus.

It is the simplest explanation that doesn't require collusion between Luke and Matthew for the use of the word.



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 08:01 PM
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reply to post by FortAnthem
 


Jesus taught 'HOW" to pray. He never intended us to memorize and recite a prayer. It was a basic guidance for What to pray for.

Pray for His Kingdom to come to Earth, pray for His will do be done here on Earth at all times just like in Heaven, pray for our provisions, give Him the glory and the praise, Pray for Him to forgive us our sins, and to give us the grace to forgive others, and to deliver us when we are tempted.

Jesus never meant for us to recite something, He wanted our prayers to come from the heart, not the mind.



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 08:28 PM
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reply to post by FortAnthem
 


First anyone would see what it was in original Aramaic text as it was written and then ancient Hebrew. All came before it was thought about being converted to Greek. Contact Mike at www.michaelsheiser.com... and he can tell you for sure what the word is supposed to be and mean.



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by FortAnthem

Most everyone who has had a Christian upbringing has had the Lord's prayer pounded into their head until they can recite it by heart without even thinking. Its strange to find out that experts don't know what one of the key phrases in the prayer even means.

The problem occurs from a word in the original Greek which doesn't exist anywhere in ancient Greek.



5. Supernatural bread – But St. Jerome also says in the same place: We can also understand supersubstantial bread in another sense as bread that is above all substances and surpasses all creatures (ibid). In this sense he also seems to see it linked to the Eucharist. When he translated the text into Latin as the Pope had asked him to do he rendered it rather literally: panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie (give us today our supersubstantial bread). If you look up the text of Matthew 6:11 in the Douay Rheims Bible you will see the word “supersubstantial” since that English text renders the Vulgate Latin quite literally.

6. Every good thing necessary for subsistence

Reverencing the Mystery – But perhaps the Lord intended that we should ponder this text and see a kind of multiple meaning. Surely it is right that we should pray for our worldly food. Likewise we should pray for all that is needed for subsistence, whether just for today or for tomorrow as well. And surely we should ask for the Bread of Life, the Holy Eucharist which is the necessary Bread that draws us to eternal life and which (Who) is over and above all earthly substances.


I never knew there was an issue with the prayer until I read this article. It seems weird that that Jesus would use an unfamiliar word in the prayer He taught to His people but, maybe the article is right; it is meant to keep us contemplating what it is we should really be praying for; Earthly sustenance or the spiritual fruits that will help us achieve salvation.


This is where everyone should be reading well beyond the Bible's stories, as Jesus and the Essene also knew the Alchemy issues for health.

The Lord's Supper did have some special things going on that happened best in the Holy Lands of Nothern Israel. Grain and Grapes grown in this region take advantage of a special soil and water nutrient that is missing in lots of areas, especially the United States.

The Soils and water of Israel are rich in a mineral called Boron and this mineral causes grains and grapes to grow the best and with some of the highest of nutritional values. What one might notice is Israel has rates of Arthritus of about Zero and this stems from this effect of Boron in the food and water chain to remove fluorine from the bone ends. That is the first clue to take note.

The next clue is Grain and Grapes were both part of the magic alchemical efforts for a long life elixor. Beer became the grain effort and Wine was the much older grape effort. Yet few places could grow the grains and grapes with the best Boron content that the Holy Land provided.

It is also related to the Manna of Moses, as the special little musrooms also concentrated Boron for health.


It is even more interesting because the area that John The Baptist chose to do his water methods was the Jordan River, which has very high concentrations of Boron. John was from the area of the Dead Sea and Qumran, which would be affected with fluoride effects and toxic effects from such. So, he likely felt the health effects of the water in the daily Essene Bathing and drinking. There is little doubt that John thought the water there was special. And the same effects also were part of the Lord's Supper, as a special gift from God.





www.organicfacts.net...

Benefits:

◦Prevents arthritis: Boron is a successful treatment option for arthritis and in more than 95% of cases significant improvement was noticed by bringing about effective calcium integration into the cartilage and bone. With increase in age the bones might become weak and porous and boron can stem this deterioration effectively.
◦Reduces severity of rheumatoid arthritis: Boron greatly reduces the allergic conditions that are typically associated with rheumatoid arthritis.
◦Used for body building in males: Boron is able to enhance the testosterone levels in males and this quality is increasingly being made use of by male body builders and athletes. Though some weight lifters prefer to take boron supplements as it enhances the testosterone levels, making them sturdy, no concrete evidence is available to drive home this point.







www.advance-health.com...

Boron and Cognitive Function
In one study, participants on a low Boron diet performed poorly in tests of manual dexterity, hand-to-eye coordination, attention, perception, and short- and long-term memory when compared to those on a high Boron diet. Inadequate boron intake can contribute to a lack of energy, ability to stay focused on tasks and mental alertness. In another experiment a group of medical students was given either a placebo or 3 mg. of Boron daily or three months. 92 percent of those taking Boron demonstrated noticeably greater mental alertness and higher participation in class discussions. Electroencephalogram (EEG) tests have demonstrated that subjects taking Boron supplements show increased activity in the areas of the brain associated with alertness when compared to subjects with inadequate Boron intake.

Boron from Food
Since 1923 boron has been recognized as an essential nutrient for plants. Boron is the most common deficiency of any trace element in plants. The Boron concentration of food varies widely based on the availability of Boron in the soil that the food was grown on. Boron is water soluble and easily leached from the soil and is not widely replaced except in instances where plant growth is inhibited by deficiencies. For this reason, foods are often produced on soils that have suboptimum Boron levels. These foods then contain suboptimum Boron levels. Humans who consume these foods then have suboptimum Boron levels. Boron is found in significant amounts in fruits, nuts and vegetables. Some good sources include apples (42.5 micrograms/gram of dry weight), soy meal (28 ug/g), grapes, tomato, celery, almonds, broccoli, bananas, wines and honey. In the United States, estimated daily boron intake ranges from 0.5 mg to 3 mg, with 1 mg being average.







www.regenerativenutrition.com...

Health Conditions Improved Naturally with Boron
•Arthritis
•Osteoporosis
•Aging
•Menopausal Symptoms
•Sex Hormones
•Allergies
•Parasites
•Candida Albicans
•Lupus ErythematosisI owe my own discovery of it to Dr. Rex E. Newman Phd for his valuable study of Boron extending over many years. He has written the book ‘Beating Arthritis & Beating osteoporosis’ (Printed by Ellesmere Press Ltd. The British School, Otley Street, Skipton, Yorkshire. UK.)

A Natural Remedy for Arthritis and Aging

While Boron is an effective treatment for 95% or more in the relief of arthritis (provided the joint has not completely deteriorated) its range of action extends beyond that. It works very well in alleviating arthritis, partly due to its crucial role of calcium integration into the cartilage and bone. This is important for all of us as we age, even if we do not have arthritis. Aging is partly associated with weakening of the bones as they become increasingly porous - adequate Boron can prevent this aging effect.

Example: an elderly lady began to take Boron daily a few months before her operation for an artificial hip that had been scheduled before she started to take the Boron. The surgeon found that he could not use the usual saw for cutting the bone in the hip replacement surgery; the bone was just too hard, like that of a young person, so he had to use a stronger saw to do the job.





There are other little tricks they used like sprouted grains to make what is called these days as Ezekial Bread, because it is high in enzymes. It has to be cooked at low temperatures to preserve the nutrients.

Boron is highly overlooked in the United States today and from the high rates of arthritis and other disorders connected with low boron-----it is apparent that religion folks didn't learn the obvious by not observing history.

Those that read from only one book, without looking at the natural features of the reigions to supplement their knowledge of the stories. Well, for centuries they die early and in significant pain. Such is what happens when they don't listen to God in the same ways as Jesus and the Essene.



edit on 6-5-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Special Healing methods of the diets---Boron is the secret of the Lord's Supper.



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 08:39 PM
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Could it be like manna from heaven or life itself
As in Dante's description of Paradise
Where angelic beings are are gathering manna (for want of a better word)
Transfer this via God to the gathered host of heaven.
Life force, the gift of soul if you get my drift and see beyond the literal



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 08:43 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


That's probably the biggest problem with this prayer; everyone is taught to memorize it and recite is by rote. They see saying the prayer as doing their due diligence and believe their responsibility to prayer had been dispensed and they are all good with God afterwards.

If one were to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, they would see that the prayer is broken down, phrase by phrase, with explanations of what each phrase means and how it teaches us of our faith and how we are to live our lives. The prayer is meant to be thought over and meditated upon.

Like you said, it was meant to be an instruction on how to pray instead of something to be mindlessly memorized and said by rote at Church every Sunday and before we go to bed.



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 08:49 PM
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Perhaps they had a Manna Machine, an Alien Device that fed them, and provided a radio to talk to God? (Aliens?)

The Manna Machine....The Ancient of Days

Bible and Technology



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 09:13 PM
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Originally posted by artistpoet
Could it be like manna from heaven or life itself
As in Dante's description of Paradise
Where angelic beings are are gathering manna (for want of a better word)
Transfer this via God to the gathered host of heaven.
Life force, the gift of soul if you get my drift and see beyond the literal



You are close---those little Manna Musrooms concentrated Boron.



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge
reply to post by FortAnthem
 


First anyone would see what it was in original Aramaic text as it was written and then ancient Hebrew. All came before it was thought about being converted to Greek. Contact Mike at www.michaelsheiser.com... and he can tell you for sure what the word is supposed to be and mean.


The Lord's prayer was first written in the book of Matthew and the oldest existing copies are all written in Greek.


The oldest known manuscripts of Matthew and Mark are in Greek. According to recent scholarship, Greek fragments of these two Gospels have been verified as dating from as early as the 60s A.D. Some scholars have argued that these Gospels were originally written in Aramaic and later translated into Greek. If that is the case, no extant copies or fragments of the Aramaic text have been found. The only evidence we have is that the original text of Matthew and Mark was in Greek.

The Language of the Gospel



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by FortAnthem
 


Jesus taught 'HOW" to pray. He never intended us to memorize and recite a prayer. It was a basic guidance for What to pray for.

Pray for His Kingdom to come to Earth, pray for His will do be done here on Earth at all times just like in Heaven, pray for our provisions, give Him the glory and the praise, Pray for Him to forgive us our sins, and to give us the grace to forgive others, and to deliver us when we are tempted.

Jesus never meant for us to recite something, He wanted our prayers to come from the heart, not the mind.


"Jesus taught HOW to pray"
Do you really know this for a fact. Does Jesus tell you these things. Perhaps it is a bit of a guess?

Perhaps you were there? You are taking second hand knowledge written down long after the events and altered by an individual's perception.

Man has all but destroyed the teachings that God intended us to have!

What part of "Give up all and follow me!" don't the churches get!

P



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by pheonix358

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by FortAnthem
 


Jesus taught 'HOW" to pray. He never intended us to memorize and recite a prayer. It was a basic guidance for What to pray for.

Pray for His Kingdom to come to Earth, pray for His will do be done here on Earth at all times just like in Heaven, pray for our provisions, give Him the glory and the praise, Pray for Him to forgive us our sins, and to give us the grace to forgive others, and to deliver us when we are tempted.

Jesus never meant for us to recite something, He wanted our prayers to come from the heart, not the mind.


"Jesus taught HOW to pray"
Do you really know this for a fact. Does Jesus tell you these things. Perhaps it is a bit of a guess?

Perhaps you were there? You are taking second hand knowledge written down long after the events and altered by an individual's perception.

Man has all but destroyed the teachings that God intended us to have!

What part of "Give up all and follow me!" don't the churches get!

P


No idea, ask a religious person who speaks for the churches. I just have a personal relationship with Christ, I reject denominational Christianity.

Anyways, the disciples asked Him how to pray, so He taught them how to pray. It's pretty basic really. Christ didn't intend for it to be some ritualistic prayer from the mind, but a prayer from the heart. He's always concerned with the heart of man. It's a guideline of what to pray for, people have made it into an idol, a ritual.

Jesus: "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions"


Memorizing and repeating the same prayer day after day from the mind is a "vain repetition". He taught what to pray for, not how to pray exactly, that would become a ritual, a vain repetition.


edit on 6-5-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 10:15 PM
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reply to post by MagnumOpus
 





This is where everyone should be reading well beyond the Bible's stories, as Jesus and the Essene also knew the Alchemy issues for health.


Alchemy is psuedo science. People were drinking quicksilver (mercury) because they thought it would make them immortal. It made them immortal alright, by shoving them into the spiritworld after their teeth, hair and fingernails fell out.



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by pheonix358
 





"Jesus taught HOW to pray"
Do you really know this for a fact. Does Jesus tell you these things. Perhaps it is a bit of a guess?


He taught me how to pray, and i heard him. He also taught me hebrew symbolism and how to see him in the old testament.

In fact i can tell you exactly how it went down.

Me: "How do i pray correctly and what should i pray for? I don't know how to pray and i am afraid i will do it wrong"

Yeshua:"Do not pray for selfish things, pray for others, for when you accepted me you were taken care of forever more, but rather pray for those who are not mine, it is they who need your prayers".



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 





And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray


I dont know bro i just dont know. Jesus seems to be saying something else.



posted on May, 6 2012 @ 11:11 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 




Yeshua:"Do not pray for selfish things, pray for others, for when you accepted me you were taken care of forever more, but rather pray for those who are not mine, it is they who need your prayers".


Jesus never said not to pray for selfish things. Everything that brings a person to prayer is selfish.


“Therefore I say to you, whatever you pray and ask for, believe that you will receive it, and it will be so for you. And whenever you stand up to pray, if you have something against anyone, forgive so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your wrongdoings.”


Jesus tells you to pray for forgiveness. He said if you can't forgive others, then god doesn't forgive you. So, you don't pray to be forgiven, you pray for the spirit of forgiveness. The ability to forgive, to have compassion, is a godly human trait, worth striving for.


Luke 6:37 (NIV) "...Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

Mat 6:14-15 (NIV) "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But, if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."


Jesus never tells his followers to pray for others. He instructed his followers to pray this way.


9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


There may be innuendos and missed translation in the text, but never does Jesus claim that non-believers need you to pray for them, or that Jesus needs your prayers to "save" others.

Jesus doesn't need reminders, to take care of others, through the nagging prayers of Christians.



posted on May, 7 2012 @ 05:39 AM
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The Lords Supper follows in the Essene Traditions for bread that is more nutritious, and a bread with enhanced mineral of the region--Boron. It is much more healthy than any other breads made today and makes one feel much better from the partaking.

Though most know it as Essene Bread, the sprouted grain methods were also part of Ezekial Bread. Everyone knows the sprouts on salad bars these days are ways to get back into this tradition of higher food values from grains that aid the enzyme productions and the natural balances for the body.

This is also the method to take a tiny amount of grain and expand it greatly to feed larger masses.




en.wikipedia.org...

Essene BreadEssene Bread is a very primitive form of sprouted grain bread. It is often eaten uncooked, or slightly heated, by proponents of raw foods.[1].[2]. The Essenes, a Jewish religious group that flourished from the 2nd century BC to the 1st century AD, are credited with the technique and basic recipes for Essene bread,[5] which is made from sprouted wheat and prepared at a low temperature. These two practices ensure the maximum possible vitamin content for this foodstuff.[6] The sprouting also breaks down the lectins and other substances that some individuals may be sensitive or allergic to.

The following is an excerpt from The Essene Gospel of Peace, as translated by Edmund Bordeaux Szekely.

"Let the angels of God prepare your bread. Moisten your wheat, that the angels of water may enter it. Then set it in the air, that the angel of air may embrace it. And leave it from morning to evening beneath the sun, that the angel of sunshine may descend upon it. And the blessings of the three angels will soon make the germ of life to sprout in your wheat. Then crush your grain, and make thin wafers, as did your forefathers when they departed out of Egypt, the house of bondage. Put them back again beneath the sun from its appearing, and when it is risen to its highest in the heavens, turn them over on the other side that they may be embraced there also by the angel of sunshine, and leave them there until the sun sets. For the angels of water, and air and of sunshine fed and ripened the wheat in the field, and they likewise must prepare also your bread. And the same sun which, with the fire of life, made the wheat to grow and ripen, must cook your bread with the same fire. For the fire of the sun gives life to the wheat, to the bread, and to the body. But the fire of death kills the wheat, the bread, and the body. And the living angels of the living God serve only living men. For God is the God of the living, and not the God of the dead.[7]
A typical Essene bread recipe: 1. Sprout wheat berries over the course of about 4 days, rinsing twice daily. 2. In a food processor, add sprouted wheat berries and other choice ingredients. 3. Once the dough has formed into a ball in processor and clings together, let sit for an hour. 4. Bake on oiled baking sheet at 300°F ( 150°C ) for 2.5 hours. To preserve more enzymes, bake at 200°F ( 95°C ) for 4 hours, or in a slow cooker on its low setting for up to 8 hours.

Though the modern method involves the use of an oven rather than the sun, both methods create a round, flattened loaf, rather like a sweet, moist dessert bread or cake.




What one obtains with the slow cooker methods is:



5.Supernatural bread – But St. Jerome also says in the same place: We can also understand supersubstantial bread in another sense as bread that is above all substances and surpasses all creatures (ibid). In this sense he also seems to see it linked to the Eucharist. When he translated the text into Latin as the Pope had asked him to do he rendered it rather literally: panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie (give us today our supersubstantial bread). If you look up the text of Matthew 6:11 in the Douay Rheims Bible you will see the word “supersubstantial” since that English text renders the Vulgate Latin quite literally.



edit on 7-5-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Jesus method to feed larger masses using sprouted grains



posted on May, 7 2012 @ 06:50 AM
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Originally posted by vaelamin
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 





And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray


I dont know bro i just dont know. Jesus seems to be saying something else.


A memorized and repeated prayer doesn't come from the heart, it comes from the left hemisphere of the brain. It's a "vain repetition".



posted on May, 7 2012 @ 12:30 PM
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Could it well be that the issues of the Lord's Supper prayer links back to the breaking of bread by the River?




en.wikipedia.org...



It appears the Essene made a kind of living bread that really did multiply, as it took seeds and they drew from the soils and the air to make much greater volumes of food and a more nutritious living bread.

Add to the effect that the soils and waters in these regions had lots of Boron minerals that would enhance the growth of the sprouts of the grains, so the grew even faster.

Perhaps this is the super natural or special nature of the Essene's living bread, which is one of the suggested meanings.


edit on 7-5-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Bread in the Essene Days was a specialize living bread that multiplied in mass and healhful nutrition



posted on May, 7 2012 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Jesus taught 'HOW" to pray. He never intended us to memorize and recite a prayer. It was a basic guidance for What to pray for.

Pray for His Kingdom to come to Earth, pray for His will do be done here on Earth at all times just like in Heaven...
I guess if we didn't pray for those things, god wouldn't let it happen?

You: "God, please let your will be done on earth."

God: "Hmmm, ok, since you asked...."


edit on 7-5-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)




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