Warping Space, Time, and Distance

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by artistpoet

 

To answer my red car problem... Einstein had the solution. He said that, when an object is in motion, time dilation and length contraction work to alter the moving object's perception of velocity in such a way that it keeps the speed of light the same no matter what speed the observer might be travelling.

My point with this was that, while many people seem to think that Einstein just pulled the Theory of Relativity out of the air, the reality is that Relativity is demanded by Maxwell's equations. If Relativity wasn't true, then the speed constraint of Maxwell's equations would not be satisfied, and light would not exist. Everything works together to ensure that light survives.

Id flip that light works to make sure the universe survives.Light is just one area of the laws of the universe without any of them the others cease to exist. This is why we continue to find out relativity is correct.We make discoveries even Einstein didnt think about.But it only works because these laws if you will are so intertwined.

reply to post by dragonridr


The universe could exist without light. It would be dark, but it would get a long just fine. Even Maxwell's equations would remain even if light failed to stay at 299,792,458 m/s all the time. It's just that light always has to be travelling at the defined speed of light in order to exist.

If light travels say from a distant star then why do we not see it as a continuous beam.
Or say light reflected from the Sun onto the Moon - why do we not see the beam of light ?
If light were traveling through space then why would we not see it doing so.

reply to post by artistpoet


How could we see light before it hits our eye?

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by artistpoet

 

How could we see light before it hits our eye?

Of course - I feel kind of dumb now
If the light hitting our eyes is why we see
I guess it is the photons that travel and we view their source or reflection of it?

reply to post by artistpoet


Yep, the light hitting our eyes is what we see. In fact, the eye can detect a single photon. The only problem is, the brain doesn't respond to single photons. Several dozen photons have to hit the eye every second in order for the brain to register them.

reply to post by CLPrime


I have a few off topic questions for you,, im not sure i know what the topic is anymore...


You know how we view elements, atoms, and particles, that act by cause and effect and are able to be classified and labeled.. ,..,,.,. can a human acting out its existence as a part of this all inclusive nature; can we not be judged, measured, and labeled by an an unbiased, external source? can every nuance be calculated and plotted, can we not be seen as pieces of the cosmic puzzle acting out abilities and probabilities within a certain set of rules and laws?


If you were given all the data of particles and mass, and energy at the moment after the big bang began, or slightly after that..... could it be predicted that eventually stars and planets would form, and these planets could produce something like biological life? a moment after the big bang what would be the rational prediction of what might happen with all that energy in the vacuum?

Originally posted by ImaFungi

You know how we view elements, atoms, and particles, that act by cause and effect and are able to be classified and labeled.. ,..,,.,. can a human acting out its existence as a part of this all inclusive nature; can we not be judged, measured, and labeled by an an unbiased, external source? can every nuance be calculated and plotted, can we not be seen as pieces of the cosmic puzzle acting out abilities and probabilities within a certain set of rules and laws?

Certainly. John Nash (the subject of the film A Beautiful Mind - and a beautiful movie, as well), for example, detailed the math involved in predicting things like human (and pigeon) behaviour. His math has been used in interpreting economics and strategic decision-making.

If you were given all the data of particles and mass, and energy at the moment after the big bang began, or slightly after that..... could it be predicted that eventually stars and planets would form, and these planets could produce something like biological life? a moment after the big bang what would be the rational prediction of what might happen with all that energy in the vacuum?

Someone modelling forward from the moments after the Big Bang would very likely be able to arrive at something similar to the universe we see now. In fact, that's how we test current cosmological theories...we plug their initial conditions into a supercomputer, let them run, and see what sort of universe we end up with. If it's a match to ours, then we have a viable theory. If it's not, then we throw it out and start over.

reply to post by CLPrime


ok cool and thanks,, those were just interesting questions that came to me......i was thinking how weird it is the universe is the way it is, its components and the events which lead to planets stars and life,, compared to any other way it could be materially and aesthetically,, and how hard it would be to imagine the universe in its forms and functions to come about from the big bang,, like if we knew nothing of the universe and were computers able to interpret the data of those moments after the big bang, out of all the things that could happen, i dont see how we could predict the universe coming into the way it is now,, including life on planets such as ours capable of doing all life has done, the shapes, styles, wills, and emotions of the animals,,, and the desirees of man to create and accomplish..

reply to post by ImaFungi


That's probably something that couldn't be predicted...the formation of life. And it would be even less likely to predict intelligent life with self-awareness. Self-awareness is nothing to predict in hindsight, knowing that it does, in fact, exist. But, if self-awareness didn't exist, its formation would probably be nearly impossible to anticipate in an otherwise purely material universe.

reply to post by CLPrime


true... but id say theres a lot to the "material" universe that is pretty complex,mysterious, powerful, and borderline material.

reply to post by ImaFungi


I would agree with you on that. It's just important to keep in mind that complex, mysterious, and powerful don't make matter any less material. Even most life isn't intelligent, and even less life is self-aware. Matter is never intelligent. Mystery doesn't change that. Quantum physics doesn't change that either... it makes the universe more mysterious, but it doesn't change the fact that the universe is just a collection of lifeless junk, some of which has been used to create things that are intelligent and self-aware.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

I would agree with you on that. It's just important to keep in mind that complex, mysterious, and powerful don't make matter any less material. Even most life isn't intelligent, and even less life is self-aware. Matter is never intelligent. Mystery doesn't change that. Quantum physics doesn't change that either... it makes the universe more mysterious, but it doesn't change the fact that the universe is just a collection of lifeless junk, some of which has been used to create things that are intelligent and self-aware.

what makes up the universe, the collection of lifeless junk, makes up us as well.... stars are full of potential energy,, could the lifeless junk that is made with the same stuff we are, be storers of potential energy? can the atoms of rocks at some point be used as energy, say if ultimate expansion does eventually cause some weird effects,,.... to my mind the idea of trillions of planets, all with a unique trademark, and relatively infinite pool of diversity, experience, expression, opportunity, ( as seen on our planet) is a pretty awesome thing for the universe to do... if we were to try to give the universe a meaning or a point, in a mainly lifeless junk universe, id say these eco system works of art on planets would be one of the cooler tricks it can pull.... from that early big bang state what could be cooler then the experience of a body and a life.... what other purposes or goals can we extrapolate,, a process of "doing something with energy", saving it and using it. what can be done.

reply to post by ImaFungi


Yet it can't be the expression (artistic or otherwise) of the universe because the universe has no intelligence or self-awareness. Unless you want to deify the universe.
Regardless, there is a lot of beauty in the universe. It is artistic, in some sense, and it is expressive of both uniquity and unity all at the same time. And the fact that we, as intelligent and self-aware beings, are composed of that...it should be enough to appreciate what we have here.
Should be.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Yet it can't be the expression (artistic or otherwise) of the universe because the universe has no intelligence or self-awareness. Unless you want to deify the universe.
Regardless, there is a lot of beauty in the universe. It is artistic, in some sense, and it is expressive of both uniquity and unity all at the same time. And the fact that we, as intelligent and self-aware beings, are composed of that...it should be enough to appreciate what we have here.
Should be.

oh yes,, id say what the universe is and has created is beyond art,,, we are only capable of imitating it through our senses and emotions on how we feel about it and that is what we call art.. it is the original artist, art as in craft or science as well,,,

"Yet it can't be the expression (artistic or otherwise) of the universe because the universe has no intelligence or self-awareness. Unless you want to deify the universe." this is what i was getting at in my earlier post about viewing humans as we view atoms and particles....... if we were to view humans as their cause and effect actions, orbiting their habits through time,, the word self awareness hardly means anything, if we are looking quantitativly at what it is humans do,, as we look at particles to see what it is they do, as you look at the universe to see what it does,,, you cant ask it if its aware or intelligent just as an unrelated un bias observer of us perhaps wouldnt think of self aware or intelligent concepts to describe us,, but the universe what it is has created life and all the things it can do,,,, do you say it created the laws of physics? or are the laws of physics a by product of the universe existing? intelligence/self awareness seems like it is what freedom is, or what gives us our free will... a spider may not be intelligent or self aware but it can create a web most humans could not,, we have our infinite and conflicting definitions of art,, i think snowflakes and the patterns of crystals are quite artistic and difficult to reproduce.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

do you say it created the laws of physics? or are the laws of physics a by product of the universe existing?

No...the universe hasn't created anything. There is no universe without the laws of physics, and there are no laws of physics without the universe. One can't have created the other...they both had to have been created together.

reply to post by CLPrime


I realized this is what you were responding too... id say these eco system works of art on planets would be one of the cooler tricks it can pull.... and that was me thinking about purely life and the game of it.... the styles of the animals and creatures and what they can do, how their conciousnes must experience this earth and their surroundings, their family and loved ones, their fears and joys, how they must, via their will struggle to survive and thrive... just on this planet alone.... im saying how these animals look, a lion, a man, a deer, a shark,, the creativity within their designs, the mechanics and technology of their biological systems, these are works of art,,, nothing in a museum can compare to the fact that somewhere in the universe, what is a living breathing lion exists,,,,

reply to post by ImaFungi



i also realized the semi sillyness and wrongness of at least the last statement of my prior blob.....

how can we compare complexity and originality of creation,,,, there are micorscopic creatures that have bizarre features and looks and components and mechanics compared to the lion,,,,,, the fact that a planet exists at its size and structure is pretty incredible....... the creation of a sky scraper and the details of its components and structure is incredible and beyond a work of art.... how can there be an ultimate, or a more surprising creation or ability... it is equally fascinating that a lion exists, that a man exists and has created a plane.... one day we can maybe understand everything about the lion and create one from scratch... human progression is the journey of understanding the universe, being ashamed at our lack of knowledge, propelling us to climb to ever higher heights, shedding belief of limits, pushing whatever limits we do have, understanding the consequences and forseeing that we act now to bring us consequences we might desiree,,,,

reply to post by ImaFungi


Thinking of creating our own lions, that brings to mind an old joke (you've probably heard it)...

A scientist is talking with God, saying, "I don't need you anymore. Science has come so far that we can even create life in a petri dish. I can create anything you can create."
God says, "Okay, let's have a contest. We will both make a mountain and see whose is better."
So the scientist says, "Fine," and begins to gather a pile of dirt.
God sees this, and he objects, saying to the scientist, "I don't think so, this is my dirt...go get your own."

No matter what we do, we can never create that which has existed since the creation of the universe. We can create all the lions we want...but can we create the elements that comprise them? Can we create electrons, and neutrons, and photons, and quarks? Can we create the very fabric of space? Do we have any semblance of authority over any of these things?

reply to post by CLPrime


never heard it, that is a great one!!

idk can we? its because we are embedded in this unescapable reality and are composed of the things it is composed of and is....... even if we turned ourselves into robots,,, or made a vaccuum and put all our brain information on the microest micro chip, if we stored it all on... what would we store it on other then atoms or particles? we are fated to fit in or demise.