It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Thank you.

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

# Warping Space, Time, and Distance

page: 6
2
share:

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 07:37 PM

Originally posted by CLPrime

Now that I've got more time, I'm going to restate the problem in more detail.

There are 3 black cars on a north-south highway, plus the one red car. The speed limit of the highway is 100 km/h.
Let's call the black cars B1, B2, and B3. And the red car is R0.

B1 is travelling north at 90 km/h.
B2 is travelling north at 40 km/h.
B3 is travelling south at 50 km/h.
R0 is travelling south at 100 km/h.

So, a few of the relative velocities (this is all simple vector addition)...

Relative to B2, B1 is travelling north at 50 km/h (90-40).
Relative to B1, Bs is travelling south at 50 km/h (40-90).
Relative to B3, B1 is travelling north at 140 km/h (90+50).
Relative to B2, B3 is travelling south at 90 km/h (40+50).

Now, here's the tricky part...

Relative to B1, R0 is travelling at 100 km/h.
Relative to B2, R0 is travelling at 100 km/h.
Relative to B3, R0 is travelling at 100 km/h.

No matter which black car you ask, and no matter in which direction and at what speed that black car is travelling, it will always measure the speed of the red car to be exactly 100 km/h.
How is that possible?

Space time distorts what your actually dealing with is relative velocity. This in effect is why Einstein says nothing can travel faster then the speed of light.Now to try to explain this measurement of space time is also relative each car easiest explanation is if each car had there own ruler and you could somehow grab them and place them in one place.You would find that the rulers was different sizes depending on how close they got to the speed of light.Same if you had an atomic clock in each car the time would move slower. Now in your example the cars arent moving near fast enough to see the effects.However the bottom line is light will all ways move at the speed of light relative to your speed because it warps space and time to make sure that happens. The laws of physics must be in place for all observers.Wow trying to explain this is tough hard enough to try to rap your brain around.

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 07:39 PM

Light is readily absorbed by matter. The fact that the speed of light is defined as a limit (the fastest possible speed) is a consequence of how someone else solved this "the speed of the red car is always 100 km/h" problem.

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 07:41 PM

Or, at least, the accepted answer.

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 07:42 PM

Originally posted by CLPrime

Light is readily absorbed by matter. The fact that the speed of light is defined as a limit (the fastest possible speed) is a consequence of how someone else solved this "the speed of the red car is always 100 km/h" problem.

because for any calculation to work, there needed to be a constant which could always be used as a reference?

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 07:48 PM

In this case, the speed of light does certainly need to be a constant in order for light to exist (and for the related set of equations - Maxwell's equations - to work).
That's the equation side of things. But it's easy for an equation to say that something must be the case. The problem is figuring out how it happens in the real world.

What physically causes the speed of the red to car to always be measured the same, regardless of how fast or in what direction the black car is moving?

Of course, the dragon up there gave the current accepted answer.

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 07:51 PM

Originally posted by CLPrime

Can you elaborate?
Note that, in the red car's frame of reference, the red car is standing still. That's how a reference frame is defined...the frame moves with an object so that the object, in its own reference frame, is at rest. It's only other cars that measure the red car to be travelling at 100 km/h (or at the speed of light, in the case of light).

The Red Car comes into existence as an Electro Magnetic Field as you previously described.
Black Cars represent matter coming into existence within the the Elecro Magnetic Field of Space
The Red Car represents the Universe or Universal Law in which Black Cars exist?

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 07:56 PM

space/time forces light to travel at that speed? ( so is it more of a confident assumption that space/time will take care of itself with the laws it established) we can observe, obey and tamper.

does the reaction which causes light always occur smoothly, are there ever less powerful then full photons, or it all always happens perfectly by default via the laws of physics, if the energy transfer occurs at all and light is created it will be perfect, speed of light light.
edit on 8-5-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-5-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-5-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 08:01 PM

If the black cars are part of the red car's reference frame, then they will say the red car is standing still.

No two objects travelling at different speeds or in different direction can be in the same reference frame. All objects within a reference frame must have the same velocity (speed and direction).
For example, the Sun can't be in the Earth's reference frame. From the Sun's reference frame, the Earth is orbiting the Sun (once per year). From the Earth's reference frame, the Sun is orbiting the Earth (once per day). Both are equally valid.

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 08:04 PM

Originally posted by ImaFungi

space/time forces light to travel at that speed? ( so is it more of a confident assumption that space/time will take care of itself with the laws it established) we can observe, obey and tamper.

That's exactly right.

does the reaction which causes light always occur smoothly, are there ever less powerful then full photons, or it all always happens perfectly by default via the laws of physics, if the energy transfer occurs at all and light is created it will be perfect, speed of light light.

No photon ever travels at less than the speed of light. As Maxwell's equations demand, if a photon tried travelling at either slower or faster than the speed of light, then the photon would disappear - the light wave would collapse.

Though, photons have different energies. A photon's energy depends on its frequency: E = hf.

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 08:05 PM

is the speed of light related to the speed of the expansion of the universe/ the constant high velocity motion of the universe ( is that what is meant by "space/time"?)... its happening on such a small scale we cannot process the speed at which light fills an area/.
edit on 8-5-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 08:11 PM

There doesn't appear to be any relation between the speed of light and the speed of the expansion of the universe.

Spacetime is simply the combination of space and time as a 4-dimensional manifold...essentially treating time as a fourth spatial dimension. Just like the spatial dimensions of the universe are expanding, it allows time to expand and contract freely as well.

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 08:16 PM

Originally posted by CLPrime

There doesn't appear to be any relation between the speed of light and the speed of the expansion of the universe.

Spacetime is simply the combination of space and time as a 4-dimensional manifold...essentially treating time as a fourth spatial dimension. Just like the spatial dimensions of the universe are expanding, it allows time to expand and contract freely as well.

true.... but perhaps the speed of expansion is not important, but the fact that the universe is expanding would allow light to spread instantaniously without us processing, because the dimensions of space allow light to flood via expansion and motion, instantaneously.. .. i dont get the cause of the speed of light, is a major contributor.. space, the vaccuum.. if it is space, then is it something space is doing that allows light to travel so fast.,? what is propelling the light, is it like a shot out of a cannon, or does the space help carry and distribute light?
edit on 8-5-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 08:20 PM

It's not necessarily something that space is doing to cause light to go that fast (though that's an interesting area to explore as well). It's what space and time are doing in order to make sure that the measurement of the speed of light will always be that fast.

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 08:41 PM

Originally posted by CLPrime

If the black cars are part of the red car's reference frame, then they will say the red car is standing still.

No two objects travelling at different speeds or in different direction can be in the same reference frame. All objects within a reference frame must have the same velocity (speed and direction).
For example, the Sun can't be in the Earth's reference frame. From the Sun's reference frame, the Earth is orbiting the Sun (once per year). From the Earth's reference frame, the Sun is orbiting the Earth (once per day). Both are equally valid.

So that is why the orbit of planets are measured in relation to the distance of The Sun
IE The closer to the Sun the faster the orbit

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 08:59 PM

Not quite. Think about it a moment... the Earth rotates once per day, so, from the Earth's point of view, the Sun orbits the Earth once per day. From the Sun's point of view, the Earth orbits the Sun once per year (how we usually look at it). The distance between the Earth and the Sun and the distance between the Sun and the Earth is the same...obviously.

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 09:04 PM

Originally posted by CLPrime

Not quite. Think about it a moment... the Earth rotates once per day, so, from the Earth's point of view, the Sun orbits the Earth once per day. From the Sun's point of view, the Earth orbits the Sun once per year (how we usually look at it). The distance between the Earth and the Sun and the distance between the Sun and the Earth is the same...obviously.

Yes of course - That is simple but profound

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 09:14 PM

Orbital velocities were the first thing I explained way back at the start of this thread...back when it was actually on-topic, in response to the OP's question.

And, just as a matter of fact, if the Sun were orbiting the Earth, its orbital velocity would be 39,000,000 km/h (24,000,000 mph). That's almost 11,000,000 m/s, or 0.0363c (3.63% of the speed of light).

ETA: also, if we want to say that the Sun is orbiting Neptune, it would have an orbital velocity of 1.63 times the speed of light.
edit on 8-5-2012 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 09:32 PM

I must admit much of the science went way over my head but now re reading the OPs Question and your opening response I have a better understanding thanks to your patient explanation

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 09:47 PM

To answer my red car problem... Einstein had the solution. He said that, when an object is in motion, time dilation and length contraction work to alter the moving object's perception of velocity in such a way that it keeps the speed of light the same no matter what speed the observer might be travelling.

My point with this was that, while many people seem to think that Einstein just pulled the Theory of Relativity out of the air, the reality is that Relativity is demanded by Maxwell's equations. If Relativity wasn't true, then the speed constraint of Maxwell's equations would not be satisfied, and light would not exist. Everything works together to ensure that light survives.

posted on May, 8 2012 @ 10:42 PM

Originally posted by CLPrime

Or, at least, the accepted answer.

Yeah but im no where near smart enough to argue with Einstein so as a general rule i have to agree with him.At least untill we can prove relativity wrong which we haven't been able to do yet.Funny when you think about it he started unlocking the keys to the universe when he didnt even know what questions to ask.

new topics

top topics

2