Warping Space, Time, and Distance

GRRRRR! I know I've seen images the voyager took of the sun as the satellite was 3 billion miles away, but I can't find them! I wanted to use them for this question, but now I'm so aggravated I'm just going to ask:

We see illustrations of how the sun warps space-time and the earth is caught within that field. If warping space-time actually exists, how can the sun possibly be warping space-time as far out as Neptune, which 4.5 BILLION miles away? Seems like a huge stretch of the imagination there. Yes? No?

reply to post by jiggerj

Imagine ripples in a pond how far the initial dropped stone or Sun's influence spreads

Gravity warps time. If something is in the Sun's orbit, it's being affected by it's gravitational pull.

Originally posted by jiggerj
GRRRRR! I know I've seen images the voyager took of the sun as the satellite was 3 billion miles away, but I can't find them! I wanted to use them for this question, but now I'm so aggravated I'm just going to ask:

We see illustrations of how the sun warps space-time and the earth is caught within that field. If warping space-time actually exists, how can the sun possibly be warping space-time as far out as Neptune, which 4.5 BILLION miles away? Seems like a huge stretch of the imagination there. Yes? No?

I think I understand your query. Are you asking why if the sun has so much influence over objects so far away it doesnt jul pull into a declining orbit the smaller planets closer to it? Or vice versa why dont the larger planets fly off into deep space? Is that what your asking?

Originally posted by TiM3LoRd

Originally posted by jiggerj
GRRRRR! I know I've seen images the voyager took of the sun as the satellite was 3 billion miles away, but I can't find them! I wanted to use them for this question, but now I'm so aggravated I'm just going to ask:

We see illustrations of how the sun warps space-time and the earth is caught within that field. If warping space-time actually exists, how can the sun possibly be warping space-time as far out as Neptune, which 4.5 BILLION miles away? Seems like a huge stretch of the imagination there. Yes? No?

I think I understand your query. Are you asking why if the sun has so much influence over objects so far away it doesnt jul pull into a declining orbit the smaller planets closer to it? Or vice versa why dont the larger planets fly off into deep space? Is that what your asking?

"how can the sun possibly be warping space-time as far out as Neptune, which 4.5 BILLION miles away?"

No, I'm pretty sure he's asking that,

Originally posted by TiM3LoRd

Originally posted by jiggerj
GRRRRR! I know I've seen images the voyager took of the sun as the satellite was 3 billion miles away, but I can't find them! I wanted to use them for this question, but now I'm so aggravated I'm just going to ask:

We see illustrations of how the sun warps space-time and the earth is caught within that field. If warping space-time actually exists, how can the sun possibly be warping space-time as far out as Neptune, which 4.5 BILLION miles away? Seems like a huge stretch of the imagination there. Yes? No?

I think I understand your query. Are you asking why if the sun has so much influence over objects so far away it doesnt jul pull into a declining orbit the smaller planets closer to it? Or vice versa why dont the larger planets fly off into deep space? Is that what your asking?

Sure, I'd like all those questions answered. But I still want to know how the sun can have any affect whatsoever on a cosmic body billions and billions of miles away.

Originally posted by SpearMint
Gravity warps time. If something is in the Sun's orbit, it's being affected by it's gravitational pull.

I guess the big brains are saying that gravity isn't at work keeping the planets orbiting the sun. The sun warps space around it, and the planets are rolling along inside the curve.

Originally posted by artistpoet
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Imagine ripples in a pond how far the initial dropped stone or Sun's influence spreads

edit on 6-5-2012 by artistpoet because: (no reason given)

The ripples would push the planets away. And please keep in mind we're talking about OVER FOUR BILLION MILES between the sun and Neptune.

Also, what's keeping all the rocks in the Kuiper Belt hanging around?

reply to post by jiggerj


the sun is huge compared to planets.. its diameter is almost a million miles.... if it is effecting the planets enough for them to orbit the sun via gravity, why is it hard to imagine the space around the planet and in-between is effected by the sun... how far away are we from the sun? and yet we can still feel its heat strongly,, how far away are the suns we see as dots of light in our sky? im guessing as to how far the sun can influence space and planets in a solar system is at least the furthest body from the sun.

Frame Dragging
Orbital Period
Celestial Mechanics

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by artistpoet
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Imagine ripples in a pond how far the initial dropped stone or Sun's influence spreads

edit on 6-5-2012 by artistpoet because: (no reason given)

The ripples would push the planets away. And please keep in mind we're talking about OVER FOUR BILLION MILES between the sun and Neptune.

Also, what's keeping all the rocks in the Kuiper Belt hanging around?

Lol OK - Then imagine stirring a cup of coffee
Or Watch the water run down a plug hole
Or have a cup of coffee and nice warm bubble bath then pull the plug

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by jiggerj

 

the sun is huge compared to planets.. its diameter is almost a million miles.... if it is effecting the planets enough for them to orbit the sun via gravity, why is it hard to imagine the space around the planet and in-between is effected by the sun...

If we're talking gravity, we little beings can jump off the ground. Of course we fall back down, but we aren't a planet billions of miles away from the sun. I'm pretty sure the Voyager image taken of the sun from 3 billion miles away made the sun look as small as a golf ball from that distance. Add another billion miles and the sun would look the size of a gumball. And it holds Neptune in place?

Is it possible that each planet exerts some kind of force on every other planet, thereby keeping them all corralled around the sun?

reply to post by jiggerj


even 1 billion miles is a lot lot lot further then these distances...

Mecury >> 36 million miles
Venus >> 67 million miles
Earth>> 93 million miles
Mars>> 142 million miles
Jupiter>> 483 million miles
Saturn>> 888 million miles
Uranus>> 1,784 million miles
Neptune>> 2,794 million miles
Even though they dont call Plato a planet any more, its>>> 3,647 million mile


www.rayfowler.org...

reply to post by jiggerj


The Sun warps space out to an infinite distance. This warping approximately follows the inverse square rule: at twice the distance, the force of gravity is 1/4 as strong.

Neptune is 30 times further out from the Sun than the Earth is. That means, at that distance, the force of gravity is 1/(30^2) = 1/900 the strength it is here.

If you know what a force is, you'll know that it's the amount of "push" needed to accelerate a certain mass by a certain amount: F = ma, where F is the force in Newtons, m is the mass in kg, and a is the acceleration of the mass in m/s^2.
Also, you should keep in mind that it is a force that keeps a planet in orbit - specifically, centripetal (center-seeking) force. Even more specifically, that centripetal force here is the gravitational pull of the Sun.

So, the force at the distance of Neptune is 1/900 the strength it is here at the distance of the Earth. That's the centripetal force that holds Neptune in its orbit.
Recalling that F = ma, rearranging that gives the acceleration as a = F/m. That means the centripetal acceleration of the orbiting planet is proportional to the force of gravity at that distance. At the distance of Neptune, then, the centripetal acceleration is much less than it is at the distance of the Earth.

Now, centripetal acceleration is equal to (v^2)/r, where v is the orbital velocity of the planet and r is its distance from the Sun. Orbital velocity is proportional to the square-root of the centripetal acceleration. That means that the orbital velocity of Neptune will be proportional to the square-root of 1/900, or 1/30, as compared to the orbital velocity of the Earth.

Ultimately, this is what I'm getting at: the only thing that must be satisfied in order to keep Neptune in an orbit around the Sun is that particular orbital velocity. Any slow and it falls into the Sun; any faster and it will fly off into space.
You will find that this is true by checking the orbital velocity of Neptune as compared to the Earth. For the Earth, it's 30 km/s; for Neptune, it's 5.43 km/s. The fact that Neptune's orbital velocity isn't exactly 1/30 that of the Earth is because it's more massive. If the Earth suddenly found itself out at the distance of Neptune, its new orbital velocity will be exactly 1/30 what it is now, which would just happen to be 1 km/s.

As I said, the gravity well of the Sun extends out to infinity. Any object, even one millions of light-years away, can conceivably enter into an orbit around the Sun. However, at that distance, too may other stars get in the way.

reply to post by ImaFungi


Sure 'bout that? 1,784 million miles and 2,794 million miles are further than a billion miles.

Originally posted by artistpoet

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by artistpoet
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Imagine ripples in a pond how far the initial dropped stone or Sun's influence spreads

edit on 6-5-2012 by artistpoet because: (no reason given)

The ripples would push the planets away. And please keep in mind we're talking about OVER FOUR BILLION MILES between the sun and Neptune.

Also, what's keeping all the rocks in the Kuiper Belt hanging around?

Lol OK - Then imagine stirring a cup of coffee
Or Watch the water run down a plug hole
Or have a cup of coffee and nice warm bubble bath then pull the plug

LOLOL What I'm saying is, imagine stirring a cup of coffee fast enough that it causes the sugar bowl to circle the cup. And how did you know I need a bath!

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by jiggerj

 

the sun is huge compared to planets.. its diameter is almost a million miles.... if it is effecting the planets enough for them to orbit the sun via gravity,

Need a clarification here: Warping space-time, and gravity - are they one in the same?

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by jiggerj

 

even 1 billion miles is a lot lot lot further then these distances...

Mecury >> 36 million miles
Venus >> 67 million miles
Earth>> 93 million miles
Mars>> 142 million miles
Jupiter>> 483 million miles
Saturn>> 888 million miles
Uranus>> 1,784 million miles
Neptune>> 2,794 million miles
Even though they dont call Plato a planet any more, its>>> 3,647 million mile


www.rayfowler.org...

edit on 6-5-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

UGH! Just checked and it's 4.5 billion kilometers, but that is still 2.8 BILLION miles.

reply to post by jiggerj


I would listen to CLPrime to get a better understanding
PS How did I know you needed a bath?
Man I can smell you from here and I live in the UK and how long is it since you changed your socks
Only kidding of course

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by jiggerj

 

The Sun warps space out to an infinite distance. This warping approximately follows the inverse square rule: at twice the distance, the force of gravity is 1/4 as strong.

Neptune is 30 times further out from the Sun than the Earth is. That means, at that distance, the force of gravity is 1/(30^2) = 1/900 the strength it is here.

If you know what a force is, you'll know that it's the amount of "push" needed to accelerate a certain mass by a certain amount: F = ma, where F is the force in Newtons, m is the mass in kg, and a is the acceleration of the mass in m/s^2.
Also, you should keep in mind that it is a force that keeps a planet in orbit - specifically, centripetal (center-seeking) force. Even more specifically, that centripetal force here is the gravitational pull of the Sun.

So, the force at the distance of Neptune is 1/900 the strength it is here at the distance of the Earth. That's the centripetal force that holds Neptune in its orbit.
Recalling that F = ma, rearranging that gives the acceleration as a = F/m. That means the centripetal acceleration of the orbiting planet is proportional to the force of gravity at that distance. At the distance of Neptune, then, the centripetal acceleration is much less than it is at the distance of the Earth.

Now, centripetal acceleration is equal to (v^2)/r, where v is the orbital velocity of the planet and r is its distance from the Sun. Orbital velocity is proportional to the square-root of the centripetal acceleration. That means that the orbital velocity of Neptune will be proportional to the square-root of 1/900, or 1/30, as compared to the orbital velocity of the Earth.

Ultimately, this is what I'm getting at: the only thing that must be satisfied in order to keep Neptune in an orbit around the Sun is that particular orbital velocity. Any slow and it falls into the Sun; any faster and it will fly off into space.
You will find that this is true by checking the orbital velocity of Neptune as compared to the Earth. For the Earth, it's 30 km/s; for Neptune, it's 5.43 km/s. The fact that Neptune's orbital velocity isn't exactly 1/30 that of the Earth is because it's more massive. If the Earth suddenly found itself out at the distance of Neptune, its new orbital velocity will be exactly 1/30 what it is now, which would just happen to be 1 km/s.

As I said, the gravity well of the Sun extends out to infinity. Any object, even one millions of light-years away, can conceivably enter into an orbit around the Sun. However, at that distance, too may other stars get in the way.

HOLY CRAP! Either you are a master at explaining things or I'm getting smarter. I understood the whole thing! Thanks!

But how is it that whenever the inner planets (or two or three of them at the same time) pass between Neptune and the sun, this 1/(30^2) doesn't change and throw Neptune out of its orbit?