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Islam brings people to Jesus...

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posted on May, 9 2012 @ 09:19 AM
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reply to post by Sahabi
 



-- Additionally, the common moral teachings of Jesus are a blasphemy and direct opposition to Islam.


Wait... this is a new one on me....where did you hear that the common moral teachings of Jesus are a blasphemy and direct opposition to Islam. Is that an official statement by muslims.... or is it something you just made up?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next, I'll go over the verses you cited.....as if they applied to muslims

Matthew Chapter 15:7-9

Who was Jesus speaking to? The muslims? or the Israelites?
Go back a few verses and you see that he was calling out the Pharisees and teachers of the law.


3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:


Matthew 7:21-23
-That specifically applies to christians.
The muslims don't go around prophesying, drive out demons and perform miracles in Jesus' name. Its the second time someones quoted that verse in the thread as applying to muslims.

edit on 9-5-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 9 2012 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by NullVoid
 






Originally posted by NullVoid

Its much more like this - "closer to god". Since the Messiah is supposed to be Jesus, then closer to him as Messiah - yes, closer to his teachings ..plausible close to no, closer to current practiced Christian teaching - No.


I think the problem, is that Islam is rejecting Christianity, (rightly so, in many aspects IMO) based on how Christians are defining Jesus. So I’m not advocating that Muslims believe all things Christian, but they should be trying to discover the truth about Jesus.

In fact there are many verses in the Quran, which conflict with “so called Christianity”, but IMO, they conflict with it, because certain aspects of Christianity or incorrect. But the problem is, that Islam sees itself as having the truth in all these matters, and then doesn’t try to find a higher truth, as to who Jesus really is.




Originally posted by NullVoid
Muslim differentiate prophet relaying god words - the book, prophet saying - hadith, prophets doing - sunnah.


This is partly what I’m trying to get at. All the prophets, Muhammad included, were all in given divine words to write down, either through an Angel of the Lord, or through prayer with God. Problem is, IMO that although those men wrote words from God, they were all imperfect men, who succumbed to the temptations, that power and authority provided them.

The difference with Jesus, is that he did not abuse his power and authority in any negative way. But the major key difference with Jesus, is that unlike the other prophets, he spoke and taught the word of God, in real time. He wasn’t praying 24/7 and then writing down Gods words… are having constant visitations by Angels, telling him what to say or right down, like all the other prophets.




Originally posted by NullVoid
Muslims believe Jesus teaching was skewed, his saying - 100% cleared but misinterpreted, his doing - 100% passed. Just look at how many gospel you have. I hit a wall to even understand what its all about, and they keep finding new ones .


Yes, I will admit, it’s a daunting task for any man.




Originally posted by NullVoid

It does "ping", why Jesus is special in Islam ? Why not Moses/Abraham/etc as the Messiah...yes it does makes me wonder.




This is why I think Islam should lead to Jesus. Some critical questions Muslims should be asking themselves, are for example (1) Why is a prophet, (Jesus) born of a virgin? (2) Why aren’t other prophets born of virgins etc? (3) Why is a prophet (Jesus) classified as the Messiah, and what’s the significance of this? (4) How is a prophet (Jesus) able to teach people about God, in real time? (5) Why do the OT prophets, keep prophesying about the coming Messiah? And why is it important?


So this “ping” factor, your talking about, is something that Muslims need to take a look at carefully, because some of these truths about Jesus, are right there in the Quran!, people just have to look/read, and ask themselves the right questions.


- JC



posted on May, 9 2012 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by maung
 


( ** To those who don't know, maung has addressed me about Asbab al-nuzul and Tafsir. These are the "back-story" explanations of each individual set of revelations of the Qur'an... the why, how, when, where, and circumstances happening when different parts of the Qur'an were revealed. ** )

 




Please do not be deceptive by making it sound so innocently easy.

Studying tafsir or asbab al-nuzul will get us no where. Why do I say such a thing?

- Because this leads to sectarianism and bias. Why do I say such a thing?

- Because there are many different tafsir schools of thought differing on sectarianism, ideology, and domain of study. There are many different mufassiroon (authors of tafsir), and many-many different collections of tafsir.

* Additionally, which ahadith (sayings and actions of Muhammad) and which seerah (biography of Muhammad) does each specific mufassir (tafsir author) use regarding each specific tafsir?

* Furthermore, we must know the isnad (chain of narration) of each ahadith.


So now what akhi? Should we spend our entire lives studying Islam or should we taqleed (blindly follow) scholars and writers?

Allah says this:


"This is the Book (the Quran), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are pious and righteous for the fear of Allah."

- Qur'an, Suratul Baqarah, Chapter 2:2



To understand Qur'an, we must:

• Learn Medieval Arabic.
• Study the Qur'an.
• Study tafsir (explanation of Qur'an).
• Study the biographies and ideologies of the mufassir (tafsir authors), because they all differ according to sect, ideology, and domain.
• Study ahadith (sayings and words of Muhammad).
• Study the isnad (chain of narration) of each hadith to discover which are more or less authentic.

Or

• Taqleed (blindly follow) a scholar

Or

• Gain your own understandings.

 



- The written Qur'an was not compiled into one full book until after Muhammad's death.
- Hadith were not compiled until after Muhammad's death.
- Tafsir was not written until after Muhammad's death.


All of what I said.... but Allah says the Qur'an is the book of no doubt?



posted on May, 9 2012 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 



where did you hear that the common moral teachings of Jesus are a blasphemy and direct opposition to Islam. Is that an official statement by muslims.... or is it something you just made up?


I keep repeating myself over and over. Love, Forgiveness, and Compassion. In Islam, such qualities are only given with certain conditions, restrictions, and limitations.

Here's the list again. All you do is say... "well the patriarchs, apostles, disciples, jews, and christians do and believe and say such and such." Not valid arguments, we are discussing the life, words, and actions of JESUS, not others.

• Jesus teaches non-violence, turn the other cheek. Islam teaches jihad.

• Jesus teaches to bless those who curse you. Islam teaches to execute blasphemers.

• Jesus teaches forgiveness. Islam teaches corporal punishemnt, execution, revenge killing, and blood money.

• Jesus taught, "he who is free of sin, let him cast the first stone." Islam teaches to stone.

• Jesus teaches to love others as yourself. Islam teaches to love your Muslim brother.

• Jesus washed the feet of his disciples and continuously calls for compassion. Islam says you may keep slaves, and rape your female slaves.

• Jesus says to love your enemies. Islam says to wage jihad against enemies, and execute apostates and non-believers.

• Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." Islam says to pay the jizyah tribute tax.

• Jesus heals the sick and raises the dead. Islam inflicts corporal punishment, amputation of limbs, and execution.



posted on May, 9 2012 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Yep, you're right.
Although Jesus was a Jew, and although Christianity didn't exist until after the death of Jesus.... Jesus was speaking to Christians


You speak of Matthew 7:21-23 as if it was a rare concept specifically addressing non-existent Christians. What say you to Matthew 15:7-9????



You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

“‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules. ’


- Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 15:7-9




Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

- Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 7:21-23




 



Do you not see that these two instances are conceptualizing the same idea?

What idea?

Jesus does not want to be honored by name, title, or words. Jesus propagates that we increase Love, Forgiveness, and Compassion in our hearts.

Islam honors Jesus by name, title, and word.... but not by goodness of the heart.



posted on May, 9 2012 @ 12:14 PM
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The level of intelligence here is rather pathetic and that is toiwards unlearnered christians!!! see video if you have the guts.


Jesus Christ (PBUH) In Islam



Is The Bible God's Word - Reverend Jimmy Swaggart vs Sheikh Ahmed Deedat



Al-Quran: A Miracle of Miracles




posted on May, 9 2012 @ 12:27 PM
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reply to post by DumbTopSecretWriters
 


Sheikh Deedat is awesome. I used to listen to his lectures and watch his debates quite often. He's a very intelligent man.

However, the thesis of the OP still stands:

Does Islam bring people to Jesus if it does not contain his moral teachings? Hypocrites and evil-doers is what Jesus labeled people who honor him by name, but do not increase Love, Forgiveness, and Compassion in their hearts.



posted on May, 9 2012 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by Sahabi
 



Jesus does not want to be honored by name, title, or words. Jesus propagates that we increase Love, Forgiveness, and Compassion in our hearts.


True.

Yet, Christianity has reduced Jesus to the role of a sacrificial animal... despite their honoring him as prophet/ messiah/ God.



posted on May, 9 2012 @ 01:10 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Akhi, I feel we've both reached the point where we are at a stalemate. I'll leave you to your thread.

Thank you for the debate. May Peace be upon you.



posted on May, 9 2012 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Sahabi
 



Jesus does not want to be honored by name, title, or words. Jesus propagates that we increase Love, Forgiveness, and Compassion in our hearts.


True.

Yet, Christianity has reduced Jesus to the role of a sacrificial animal... despite their honoring him as prophet/ messiah/ God.


Thats a lie. "Christians" are not the ones who killed him the jews did and they did it because he allowed them to. to save all of mankind even you who chose a murdering liar over him. Stop placing your misquided hate on us.

He gave it up himself willingly, now i've had enough of this foolishness. This is me kicking the dust off my sandles for a testimony against you.
edit on 9-5-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 03:51 AM
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Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by maung
 


( ** To those who don't know, maung has addressed me about Asbab al-nuzul and Tafsir. These are the "back-story" explanations of each individual set of revelations of the Qur'an... the why, how, when, where, and circumstances happening when different parts of the Qur'an were revealed. ** )

 




Please do not be deceptive by making it sound so innocently easy.

Studying tafsir or asbab al-nuzul will get us no where. Why do I say such a thing?

- Because this leads to sectarianism and bias. Why do I say such a thing?

- Because there are many different tafsir schools of thought differing on sectarianism, ideology, and domain of study. There are many different mufassiroon (authors of tafsir), and many-many different collections of tafsir.

* Additionally, which ahadith (sayings and actions of Muhammad) and which seerah (biography of Muhammad) does each specific mufassir (tafsir author) use regarding each specific tafsir?

* Furthermore, we must know the isnad (chain of narration) of each ahadith.

This is why i suggest you when explaining islam, you beter say islam in salafi teaching to be fair.



So now what akhi? Should we spend our entire lives studying Islam or should we taqleed (blindly follow) scholars and writers?

Islam teach we should learn and learn till the end of our life.



Allah says this:


"This is the Book (the Quran), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are pious and righteous for the fear of Allah."

- Qur'an, Suratul Baqarah, Chapter 2:2



To understand Qur'an, we must:

• Learn Medieval Arabic.
• Study the Qur'an.
• Study tafsir (explanation of Qur'an).
• Study the biographies and ideologies of the mufassir (tafsir authors), because they all differ according to sect, ideology, and domain.
• Study ahadith (sayings and words of Muhammad).
• Study the isnad (chain of narration) of each hadith to discover which are more or less authentic.

Or

• Taqleed (blindly follow) a scholar

Or

• Gain your own understandings.

There are lots of school available to learn this. Some muslim add tasawuf to learn Quran.Learn more about spiritual to gain "shortcut".There always be a way if we want and willing to search.
If you choose to be taqleed, at least you know the sulukh or the scholar or your teacher.Your teacher or the scholar must learn from someone who learn from someone etc and finally they learn from sahabat, and then from Muhamad.They should provided this chain for authenticity.



- The written Qur'an was not compiled into one full book until after Muhammad's death.
- Hadith were not compiled until after Muhammad's death.
- Tafsir was not written until after Muhammad's death.


All of what I said.... but Allah says the Qur'an is the book of no doubt?

The Quran we saw today even so different in writing style than in early Quran.The style of writing is one of they key secret how to tafseer it.But the "Quran" will be still there unchanging.

Anyway i dont search for debate here, just suggestion. For me, religion is to believe of the creator. La ilaha illalah is a pure basic search of God since so long.Most people know it as there is no God but Allah. But translation for this is there is no god but God.It is come from lowering yourself that we dont know truly about God or confused.So this is basically to address to God whatever or whoever God is, without no attribute, the search of the one.

If a religious people search for the One, we are the same then.The different is the way we choose. Either way its a try to get closer to the creator.

Peace



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by NullVoid
 


This is why I think Islam should lead to Jesus. Some critical questions Muslims should be asking themselves, are for example (1) Why is a prophet, (Jesus) born of a virgin? (2) Why aren’t other prophets born of virgins etc? (3) Why is a prophet (Jesus) classified as the Messiah, and what’s the significance of this? (4) How is a prophet (Jesus) able to teach people about God, in real time? (5) Why do the OT prophets, keep prophesying about the coming Messiah? And why is it important?

So this “ping” factor, your talking about, is something that Muslims need to take a look at carefully, because some of these truths about Jesus, are right there in the Quran!, people just have to look/read, and ask themselves the right questions.

- JC



Salam,

1. His miracle ? Its nothing special other than a miracle. Much like Moses stick.
2.Yes, only god know why others not born from virgin.
3.Yes, as mentioned in my post. Why ?
4.Thats is a problem to know realtime or not and it actually lead to a bigger problem.. Who knows when is he relaying or not. Is he that perfect ?, Christian would say yes, I would say, I dont know. Wasnt born near him or his time
. On Islam part, somehow people know when Mohammad is relaying and when he is not. After all, he is also not perfect, much like other human, so how about Jesus ?.
5.There are few Al-Masih that Muslim await. Mahdi, Dajjal and Jesus. Why is it important ? - So people keep to the teaching.
-----------------------
Islam bring Muslim/people closer to Jesus ?
Yes, as al-Masih, a helper and as a person, not as teachings or new things to learn.



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 08:45 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



Thats a lie. "Christians" are not the ones who killed him the jews did and they did it because he allowed them to. to save all of mankind even you who chose a murdering liar over him.


Sure Christians didn't kill him....but christians are the only group that seeks to profit off the death of an innocent man, in the sense you all believe his "death" will redeem YOU of sin.

The Jews killed him because they stupidly believed he was wrong... and the Romans who scourged and nailed him did a job they were getting paid for. However, christians seek to profit off his death.

You are all like vultures hovering over the body of a dying man.






edit on 10-5-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



Thats a lie. "Christians" are not the ones who killed him the jews did and they did it because he allowed them to. to save all of mankind even you who chose a murdering liar over him.


Sure Christians didn't kill him....but christians are the only group that seeks to profit off the death of an innocent man, in the sense you all believe his "death" will redeem YOU of sin.

The Jews killed him because they stupidly believed he was wrong... and the Romans who scourged and nailed him did a job they were getting paid for. However, christians seek to profit off his death.

You are all like vultures hovering over the body of a dying man.






edit on 10-5-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)


So Jews are stupid for believing Jesus was wrong, Christians are vultures for accepting Jesus at his word (last supper teachings) as being right, and Islam is righteous for "honoring" Jesus with their lips only, having hearts far from him?


edit on 10-5-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by NullVoid
 




Hi there…



Originally posted by NullVoid
1. His miracle ? Its nothing special other than a miracle. Much like Moses stick.


Now that is funny lol

Yeah, it’s nothing special…just your everyday, run of the mill, miracle lol




Originally posted by NullVoid
2.Yes, only god know why others not born from virgin.



This is the point of questions 1 and 2, they lead to bigger questions which people must try to find, and seek out for themselves.




Originally posted by NullVoid
3.Yes, as mentioned in my post. Why ?


Same as above; the question raises more questions, than it answers and that’s really the whole point.

And if I was to give you all the answers, what good would that do? You probably wouldn’t believe me any way…




Originally posted by NullVoid
4.Thats is a problem to know realtime or not and it actually lead to a bigger problem.. Who knows when is he relaying or not. Is he that perfect ?, Christian would say yes, I would say, I dont know. Wasnt born near him or his time . On Islam part, somehow people know when Mohammad is relaying and when he is not. After all, he is also not perfect, much like other human, so how about Jesus ?.



Well, if you go by the 4 Gospel accounts, Jesus has many interactions with the Pharisees in the Old Temple of Jerusalem. They ask him many questions and Jesus answers them directly. In other words, Jesus does not have a speech prepared, and is answering questions unrehearsed. This is what I meant by Jesus teaching about God, in “real time” and that is why IMO he is unique, when compared to other prophets.

And I should just, add that I see Jesus as more than just a prophet; He is only a prophet, in the sense that he teaches people about God.




Originally posted by NullVoid
5.There are few Al-Masih that Muslim await. Mahdi, Dajjal and Jesus. Why is it important ? - So people keep to the teaching.
-----------------------



Dajjal is the anti-Christ who according to prophecy is going to impersonate Jesus in the end times. Seems to me like it should be important, to find out more about Jesus, so as to be able to tell the two apart.

And again, that last question raisers more questions, and is mainly about, why are there so many prophets, in the OT, prophesying about one specific prophet to come?

Your “ping” factor, should be going through the roof lol


Peace be with you…


- JC



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 12:00 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



Christians are vultures for accepting Jesus at his word (last supper teachings) as being right, and



Islam is righteous for "honoring" Jesus with their lips only, having hearts far from him?


Islam does not promote salvation from the death of an innocent man. Christianity does.



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



Christians are vultures for accepting Jesus at his word (last supper teachings) as being right, and



Islam is righteous for "honoring" Jesus with their lips only, having hearts far from him?


Islam does not promote salvation from the death of an innocent man. Christianity does.


don't deflect. You're telling us that Jews are stupid for believing Jesus was wrong, Christians are vultures for accepting Jesus as right, and would have us believe Islam brings people to Jesus while denying the Spirit of God found in his very words and life?

Here's an assessment for you and all your S&F's: Get behind me, Satan.



posted on May, 10 2012 @ 01:02 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 




Here's an assessment for you and all your S&F's: Get behind me, Satan.


Stop stealing Jesus' lines.




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