Islam brings people to Jesus...

reply to post by Sahabi

I am an EX Buddhist, EX Christian, and EX Muslim. I have studied the Bible, the Qur'an and their subsequent religions and histories in depth.

Wow. I'm amazed. Interesting...


Now.. let me talk about my background.
I was born a hindu. I studied in a christian school....I've read the bible... I've been through a phase where I hated muslims... and here I am now defending Islam.

Muhammad IS NOT of the spiritually enlightened class of Jesus and Buddha.

Well, Mohammad is NOT Jesus or Buddha. Nobody compared him to anyone. Why does he need to be like Buddha or Jesus, in the first place?

Originally posted by Joecroft
As for Mohammed going around forcing people to accept Islam, at the point of a sword… well, this just doesn’t appear to be historically accurate

Really?

Let's look at what Arab Muslim historian Muhammad ibn Umar al-Waqidi (born 747-823) reported Muhammad as having said:-

"I was ordered to fight all men until they say 'There is no god but Allah."

Prophet Muhammad's farewell address, March 632

Source: Muhammad ibn Umar al-Waqidi, Kitab al-Maghazi (avaliable from: London, UK: Oxford University Press, Vol. 3, 1966, p. 1113).

Islamic Imperialism: A History by Efraim Karsh

A Muslim historian confirms that Muhammad stated he wished to fight all men until they say there is no god but Allah.

Ibn Ishaq, author of the first biography about Muhammad - Sirat Rasul Allah - "Life of God's Messenger" in 768 AD is also a Muslim historian that confirms Muhammad spread Islam by the sword.

But why confine ourselves to historical sources that Muslims can claim are not accurate?

The koran itself states non-Muslims have to be forcibly submitted under Islam and pay a jizyah (tax) Koran 9:29 as noted in an above post.

The Hadith also make it clear that Muhammad spread Islam by the sword

Allah's Apostle said:

"I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle."

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, number 24

Sahih Bukhari is a sacred Hadith to Sunni Muslims who make up about 85% of Muslims worldwide. The same Hadith makes it clear that Muhammad told Muslims to engage in Jiahd.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, number 25

If Muhammad, as revealed in historical sources, the Koran and the Hadith, advocated jihad, forcing people to acknowledge Islam as the supreme religion and forcing non-Muslims to be humbled by force and made to pay jizyah (tax), in what sense is Islam a religion of peace?

Originally posted by ollncasino

If Muhammad, as revealed in historical sources, the Koran and the Hadith, advocated jihad, forcing people to acknowledge Islam as the supreme religion and forcing non-Muslims to be humbled by force and made to pay jizyah (tax), in what sense is Islam a religion of peace?

edit on 6-5-2012 by ollncasino because: add link & clarify

Oh that is easy.

Islam is peace between the Allah believers. But Islam says the god of Moses is their Allah, so get the story right and don't say Jesus is god and you believe in Allah.

If you leave Islam, and take up Jesus as god, they will be off with your head in the lands of Islam.


Christianty games are trying to invade Iran and other Islamic countries, and if any Islamic person converts to Christianty they get on the execution list.

Which is what all this Koran Burning in Florida is about, and all that is doing is killing America Soldiers.


And all that over faked up church claims of Jesus being god.



They only toss you in jail in Israel for saying Jesus is god and trying to convert Jewish.

Originally posted by MagnumOpus
If you leave Islam, and take up Jesus as god, they will be off with your head in the lands of Islam.

Muhammad himself made it clear that the penalty for leaving Islam was death

Sahih Bukhari, Book 83

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

University of Southern California

If the founder of Islam made it clear that the penalty for leaving Islam is death, in what sense is Islam a religion of peace?

Originally posted by ollncasino
If the founder of Islam made it clear that the penalty for leaving Islam is death, in what sense is Islam a religion of peace?

Only in the sense that mutual believers in Allah are at peace. In these times of Arabia the tribes were often at wars with each other, and Mohammad's peace plan was only about that.

All the non-Allah types in Islamic countries either run, or convert, or die. There are Islam countries that tolerate Christians just so long as they do it in their homes and don't convert Muslums. Convert a Muslum and you will soon die.

Muslims believe he's a prophet.


Jesus is God, end of story.

Muslims believe he's a prophet.


Jesus is God, end of story.

Well, if that were so. Jesus would have converted the Muslums easily.

Thus, your statement is not true.

If Jesus were the one god, all the world would be aligned. Lots of the world never heard of Christianty and they are doing very well without being sold the PT Barnum line of nonsense for a coin in the plate.

reply to post by Joecroft

And speaking of Laws, the extra laws added to the Ten Commandments in Judaism, are not exactly, what I would call, user friendly. And yet know one is going around, saying that the men who wrote them, are not prophets from God.

The 603 jewish civil laws were adopted after the first covenant had been negated. The first covenant and been broken long before Moses even came down from Mt Sinai with the original tablets written by Yeshua. What came after was a religion made by men, just like what Islam has and Roman Catholicism and Judaism. An institution made by the hands of men. Some prophets were not prophets of God, they were prophets of Ba'al. The true church is not one made by men but a spiritual brotherhood of people who have Christ's indwelling spirit and who keep his commandments. Anyone who follows Muhammad does not follow Christ, because Yeshua never commanded his believers to do any of the things Muhammad did.

Jeremiah 7:16-25

16 “Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you. 17 Do you not see what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger. 19 Do they provoke Me to anger?” says the Lord. “Do they not provoke themselves, to the shame of their own faces?”

20 Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Behold, My anger and My fury will be poured out on this place—on man and on beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground. And it will burn and not be quenched.”

21 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat. 22 For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. 23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ 24 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward. 25 Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have even sent to you all My servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them. 26 Yet they did not obey Me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck. They did worse than their fathers.

27 “Therefore you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not obey you. You shall also call to them, but they will not answer you.

So a second covenant was to come, Yeshua through his crucifixtion that Muslim deny even happened.

By the way, you should read the Talmud's commandments, it reads alot like Sharia Law. Talmud is Quran for jews.

This is the 10 commandments of the Torah from Exodus versus the Talmud. It reads just like Sharia Law.

EXODUS 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying,
1 ==========================================
EXODUS 20:3 You shalt have no other gods before me.
2 ==========================================
EXODUS 20:4 You shalt not make to you any graven image
3 =========================================
EXODUS 20:7 You shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;
4 ==========================================
EXODUS 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5 ==========================================
EXODUS 20:12 Honor thy father and thy mother:
6 ==========================================
EXODUS 20:13 You shalt not kill.
Abhodah Zarah (25b)T: Even the best of the Goim should be killed.
Abhodah Zarah 26b Tosephoth: "A Jew who kills a Christian commits no sin, but offers an acceptable sacrifice to God."
Alkut Simoni (245c): A Jew shedding the blood of a Christian is offering a sacrifice to God.
Hilkhoth Akum(X,2) -- Baptized Jews are to be put to death
Iore Dea (158, 1): Christians who are not Jews' enemies must also die.
Iore Dea(158,2)Hag. -- Kill renegades who turn to Christian rituals.
Livore David 37: "If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the rabbinic books, he ought to give only a false explanation. Who ever will violate this order shall be put to death."
Makkoth (7b): Innocent of murder if intent was to kill a Christian
Sanhedrin (59a) & Abohodah Zarah 8-6: "Every goy [non-Jew] who studies the Talmud and every Jew who helps him in it, ought to die."
Schulchan Aruch Choszen Hamiszpat 388: "It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces."
Sepher Or Israel (177b): If a Jew kills a Christian he commits no sin. He has done God a service.
Zohar (11 43a): Extermination of Christians necessary.
Zohar (I,25a) -- Christians are to be destroyed as idolators.
Zohar (I,219b) -- Princes of Christians are idolators, must die.
Zohar (II, 43a): Extermination of Christians is a necessary sacrifice to God.
Zohar (L, 38b, 39a): A Jew to receive a high place in heaven if he kills a Christian.
7 ==========================================
EXODUS 20:14 You shalt not commit adultery.
Kelhubath (11a-11b): When a GROWN UP MAN HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A LITTLE GIRL IT IS NOTHING, for when the girl is less than this [See Footnote] THREE YEARS OLD it is as if one puts the finger into the eye [Again See Footnote] tears come to the eye again and again, SO DOES VIRGINITY COME BACK TO THE LITTLE GIRL THREE YEARS OLD."
Nadarine, 20, B; Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "A Jew may do to a non-Jewess what he can do. He may treat her as he treats a piece of meat."
8 ==========================================
EXODUS 20:15 You shalt not steal.
Choschen Ham (193, 7): Keep any overpayment Christians make in error.
Choschen Ham (226 1): Jew may keep lost property of Christian found by Jew.
Schulchan Aruch Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "A Jew may rob a goy [non-Jew] that is, he may cheat him in a bill, if unlikely to be perceived by him."
Schulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 539: "At the time of the Cholhamoed the transaction of any kind of business is forbidden. But it is permitted to cheat a goy [non-Jew], because cheating of goyi at any time pleases the Lord."
Tosefta, Abhodah Zarah VIII, 5: "How to interpret the word 'robbery.' A goy [non-Jew] is forbidden to steal, rob, or take women slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is not forbidden to do all this to a goy."
9 ==========================================
EXODUS 20:16 You shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Babha Kama (113a): Jew may lie and perjure himself to condemn a Christian.
Babha Kama (113b): "The name of God not profaned, if a Jew lies to a Christian."
Babha Kama (113b): It is permitted for a Jew to deceive Christians.
Christian; Name of God not profaned when lying to Christians.
Christians; Jew may lie and perjure to Condemn a Christian
Kallah (1b, p. 18): Jew may perjure himself when lying about Christians.
Kallah (1b p. 18): Jew may perjure himself with a clear conscience.
Schabbouth Hag (6d): Jews may swear falsely by the use of subterfuge wording.
Szaaloth-Utszabot The Book of Jore Dia 17: "A Jew should and must make a false oath when the goyim [non-Jew] asks if our books contain anything against them."
10 =========================================
EXODUS 20:17 You shalt not covet thy neighbor's ... stuff
Babha Bathra (54b): Christian property belongs to the first Jew claiming it.
Josiah 60, 6, Rabbi Abarbanel ... As soon as the King Messiah will declare himself... Take the silver and gold from the goyim."
Schulchan Aruch Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation...

reply to post by ollncasino



Nice post, but you would then have to compare and contrast all that history, with what the Muslims actually believe in, as outlined in a few verses below (to name but a few)… taken from the Quran…


Which is why I said in my previous post, that, “we can’t judge God, based on the actions of imperfect men.”

Quran 6:151

Say: "Come, let me convey unto you what God has [really] forbidden to you: "Do not ascribe divinity, in any way, to aught beside Him; and [do not offend against but, rather,] do good unto your parents; [146] and do not kill your children for fear of poverty - [for] it is We who shall provide sustenance for you as well as for them; [147] and do not commit any shameful deeds, be they open or secret; and do not take any human being's life-[the life] which God has declared to be sacred -otherwise than in [the pursuit of] justice: this has He enjoined upon you so that you might use your reason;

Quran 17:33
“Nor take life – which Allah has made sacred – except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)”

The point of my previous post, was not to get into historical debate, but was mainly to point out, that if where going to discount Mohammed as being a prophet from God, just based on past atrocities, then we need to be applying that same thought process, towards prophets and Kings in OT.

Of course there are Christian apologists, who tell us the reasons why God commanded, or apparently did those evil things in the OT. But no one, for one second, seems to be looking for similar reasons, as to why Mohammed, did the things he did.

It’s like some crazy, blind, double standard, where one is seen as right, and the other is some how wrong; and because of this absurd reasoning, conclude that he cannot be a prophet from God etc.

- JC

reply to post by MagnumOpus


Was Jesus lying?

John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Why is Jesus the only way? Because Jesus said He was the only way. "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me," (John 14:6). Of course, just because someone says he is the only way, doesn't mean he is. But, this is why we need to look at Jesus' miracles as a proof that He was right about who He said He was. Jesus walked on water, calmed a storm with a command, raised people from the dead, and rose from the dead Himself. It is the fact of His incredible deeds. Now, if Joe Schmoe on the street said that he was the only way to God, we'd look at him and say, "Yeah, right." But, if Joe calmed a storm with a command, raised someone from the dead, walked on water, etc., that would add a lot of credibility to his claim. After all, he is demonstrating extraordinary abilities consistent with his claim. This is the case with Jesus. He made extraordinary claims and performed extraordinary deeds. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that what Jesus said was true -- especially since He claimed to be God (John 8:24,58; 10:30-33; 5:18). Also, consider that no one else has done what Jesus has done. No one else has risen from the dead, calmed storms, raised others from the dead, and fulfilled numerous prophecies, etc. Though some may have claimed to be able to do one or two of these things, none have done all the things Christ has done as well as claim divinity. Since Christ has done all of these things and since He claims to be God in flesh, then it is logical to believe what He has said... that He is the only way.

I'm a Muslim Sunnah Wal Jamaah . I'm not very religious in practical but I think I should step in to clear some stuff.

Sahabi: Please reconsider your act leaving Islam. I believe the one you have been is Wahabi. That is an aggressive sect of Muslim. Also you should know already, the price you have to pay denouncing Islam.

Back to topic - On all post, weirdly the one who have the idea is - MagnumOpus.

Here are some tings thats everyone should understand.
1.Syariah law is specially for Muslims, other than jizyah tax. I dont really know what else is there for you in Syariah Law. Syariah law only concern with Muslims, so why are you shivering in fear ?

2.There is no force in religion (Religion of peace) - means you can choose what religion you want. You can be Buddhist or whatever, as a Muslim, I cannot enforce you to accept Islam. I can only tell. If you choose to be Christian and reject Islam, so be it.

3.IF you accept Islam, the story is different. You should shivering in fear of leaving etc etc. Because the law is harsh and pretty much unforgiving. In here, none of you should be shivering except Sahabi.

4.Islam is a way of life not a religion. You can accept or you dont. If you dont accept, fine, worship whatever you like. If you accept, obey the rules. Islam is also 1 way, once you are in, there is no getting out except death.

In other word, to accept Islam is like jumping of cliff like Neo done in Matrix. There is no return back and you must have strong belief to jump, with option - not to jump, no force.

No force can make you accept Islam. It come from the heart. So as a Muslim, I'm VERY INTRIGUED why people afraid of Syariah law ? Syariah law dont apply to you !

Btw, Sahabi, seriously, re study your approach to Islam like MagnumOpus. I believe you have gone to the extreme sect because I dont know what teaching you mentioned before. Opt for the majority Muslim - Sunnah Wal-Jamaah - the moderate one. Islam is not for you if you prefer different/carefree lifestyle. Mostly its a form of submission.

-----------------------------------------------

On topic of prophets.
Muslim view Jesus just like Mohammad just like Adam just like Noah just like other prophets, 25 of them, all the same belief with different way of teaching, all the same standard, none of them god and Mohammad is the last of the series.
Monotheism ver 1.0 - Moses - Jews
Monotheism ver 2.0 - Jesus - Christians
Monotheism ver 3.0 - Mohammad - Muslims
its that simple, but if I dont have Islam as choice, I wont go to version 2, I'll choose version 1.

Sorry to say this but even Jews keep to the teaching better than Christians and the Jews supposed to be my future enemy, LOL.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by lonewolf19972000
The 603 jewish civil laws were adopted after the first covenant had been negated. The first covenant and been broken long before Moses even came down from Mt Sinai with the original tablets written by Yeshua.

This is just the thing, although those men negated the first covenant, they were, and are still, classified as prophets of God.

So the question is; why can’t people see Mohammed in the same light?

Originally posted by lonewolf19972000
What came after was a religion made by men, just like what Islam has and Roman Catholicism and Judaism. An institution made by the hands of men. Some prophets were not prophets of God, they were prophets of Ba'al.

Yes, I completely agree with you on this. Men have indeed used their power and influence, to promote their own religion.

And I think your right about the prophets too, I only really trust the prophets that Jesus quotes. And it always seemed strange to me, how the Jews would allow Ba'al worshipers, to help build their sacred temples.

Originally posted by lonewolf19972000
The true church is not one made by men but a spiritual brotherhood of people who have Christ's indwelling spirit and who keep his commandments. Anyone who follows Muhammad does not follow Christ, because Yeshua never commanded his believers to do any of the things Muhammad did.

But this is the point I’m trying to make, Yeshua also didn’t command those early prophets in the OT, to do the bad things they did, but we still classify them (some of them at least) as prophets from God.

People who believe in Islam, believe in Jesus as well, but they just don’t believe in him, in the exact same way, that most Christians do. And as the OP has already pointed out Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah, and in his immaculate conception.

I just don’t see how it’s possible for them to come to believe in those things, unless it arrived from the one true God. Sure, they may not have the complete picture in regards to Jesus, but then again, neither did many of the prophets in the OT.


- JC

reply to post by NullVoid

1.Syariah law is specially for Muslims, other than jizyah tax. I dont really know what else is there for you in Syariah Law. Syariah law only concern with Muslims, so why are you shivering in fear ?

13- Non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims and must comply to Sharia (pay Zizzya: poll tax) if they are to remain safe. They are forbidden to marry Muslim women, publicly display wine or pork, recite their own religious scriptures, or openly celebrate their religious holidays or funerals. They are forbidden from building new churches or building them higher than mosques. They may not enter a mosque without permission. A non-Muslim is no longer protected if he commits adultery with a Muslim woman or if he leads a Muslim away from Islam.

Right, and "if" Islam were to spread across the world and "unite" (conquer), people who do not believe in islam will be left alone and not forced to obey sharia even though they are nonmuslim? Yeah right. Not what #13 of Sharia Law says. Tell that to that last 1400 years of pagans, christians and jews.

.There is no force in religion (Religion of peace) - means you can choose what religion you want. You can be Buddhist or whatever, as a Muslim, I cannot enforce you to accept Islam. I can only tell. If you choose to be Christian and reject Islam, so be it.

1- Jihad defined as “to war against all non-Muslims to establish the religion” is the duty of every Muslim and Muslim head of state (Caliph). Muslim Caliphs who refuse jihad are in violation of Sharia and unfit to rule.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Well im my book murder is murder, calling it the reaping of corn doesnt change what it is. Fight them until all religion is for "Allah", yeah that really sounds peaceful . Kill them until they get tired of dying and submit to Islam.

Islam is a way of life not a religion. You can accept or you dont. If you dont accept, fine, worship whatever you like. If you accept, obey the rules. Islam is also 1 way, once you are in, there is no getting out except death.

Just like gangs, only way out is to die unless you can make a deal with the government and get a new life somewhere else. Unlike the western nations, you're just dead.

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Sure sounds peaceful to me, all i read is war, murder, oppression. So basically anyone who is against Islam is at war with them and subject to being murdererd/crucified, having their hands and feet amputated or imprisoned. Anyone against Islam spreading is an enemy of islam and worthy of killing. Gotcha.

Sorry to say this but even Jews keep to the teaching better than Christians and the Jews supposed to be my future enemy, LOL

I am pretty sure you don't know any christians, most muslim i have met are biligerent to nonmuslim. So the pot calls the kettle black.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Mark 7:9-10 - "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:"

Jesus is approving of killing children as taught in ( Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21).

This is extremely un-peaceful and EVIL!

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by NullVoid

 

13- Non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims and must comply to Sharia (pay Zizzya: poll tax) if they are to remain safe.

1- Jihad defined as “to war against all non-Muslims to establish the religion” is the duty of every Muslim and Muslim head of state (Caliph). Muslim Caliphs who refuse jihad are in violation of Sharia and unfit to rule.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Well im my book murder is murder, calling it the reaping of corn doesnt change what it is. Fight them until all religion is for "Allah", yeah that really sounds peaceful

. Kill them until they get tired of dying and submit to Islam.

edit on 6-5-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

To explain your first point about Jizya tax; here it is:

The Jizya verse is verse 9:29. Jizya means defense tax and it applies to Jews and Christians under Muslim rule. They are not required to join the military but it’s the Muslim ruler’s duty to defend them at time of war, hence the name defense tax. Because Islamic law does not institute regular taxes, the Islamic state’s main revenue is the Zakah (alms). Since non-Muslim citizens do not pay the Zakah, it would be unfair that they do not pitch in but still be defended. Jizya balances that. That’s what the Arabic word means: compensation. In return, non-Muslim citizens are permitted to practice their faith, to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy, to be entitled to Muslim state’s protection from outside aggression, to be exempted from military service and the Zakat as obligatory upon Muslim citizens.

3 points:

1. If a Muslim country came under attack , Muslims were required to defend it. Christians and Jews didn't need to ever raise a sword, but were still protected because their payment of jizya earned them the protection of the Muslims.

2. While Muslims were required to pay 2.5% of their savings, jewelry, and property, Christians and Jews were not required to pay jizya on property, livestock, crops or produce, and only paid at all if they could afford it. Who do you think has the more difficult burden?

3. It comes down to this. Muslims pay the higher Zakah tax and are required to defend their country (including Jews and Christians.) Jews and Christians paid a lower tax and didn't need to ever fight.

So the jizya tax wasn't a penalty or meant as punishment, it was a tax that helped run the state. If we refuse to pay taxes in the U.S., we end up in prison. The argument that everyone has to pay the same tax could be made, but again, the tax on non-muslims was low, and not required of those that couldn't afford it. And everyone was taxed. Muslims with any decent or semi-decent amount of savings were required to pay much more than non-muslims.

Don't know how that's a valid argument to put up.

__________________________________________________

Now, onto the quote you used to try and justify that killing innocent people is allowed. Quran (2:191-193)

Here is what it fully says, but you have to read from verse 190. This user here just displayed the typical ignorance of people who try and put on the claim that Islam allows for killing people anywhere that you find them. A rather mediocre move on his part:

Surah Al-Baqarah

- (2:190) Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

- (2:191) And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

- (2:192) And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

- (2:193) Fight them until there is no

 

fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

Continued ---

--- Continued

I'm not sure if you understood what you just posted if you used this as a backing to justify that Muslims are violent. Quoting this and using it as a reasoning for the violent acts of certain individuals means that you apparently do not agree with 'defending yourself and/or others'; it's inane.This verse means those who attacked the Muslims, are told to fight back for justice. The verses even say that if the people who started the fight begin to stop and make peace , then the Muslims must also stop and make peace as well, far from terrorism. Historically, this refers to the Battle of Badr. Although what you've stated is in context, you certainly don't understand what it says. On top of this, it's historically out of context.


As for your point on Jihad.

Jihad has the literal meaning of exerting our best and greatest effort to achieve something. It is not the equivalent of war, for which the Arabic word is qital. Jihad has a much wider connotation and embraces every kind of striving in God’s cause. A mujahid is one who is sincerely devoted to his or her cause; who uses all physical, intellectual, and spiritual resources to serve it; who confront any power that stands in its way; and, when necessary, dies for this cause. Jihad in the way of God is our struggle to win God’s good pleasure, to establish His religion’s supremacy, and to make His Word prevail.

There are two aspects of jihad. One is fighting to over­come carnal desires and evil inclinations; this is called the greater jihad; the other is encouraging others to achieve the same objective and is called the lesser jihad.

The Quran mentions 'Jihad' and 'fighting' in order to stop senseless wars and killing. How is this? The Quran mentions 'Jihad' and 'fighting' attempting to reform the leaders of nations to not fight for self-indulgence, for power & wealth for oneself, for oppressing others etc. Rather, the Quran frequently keeps reminding the rulers of nations and its military forces to fear God and not oppress people, to fear God and not fight for the short lived pleasures of this life which drive people to oppress others. Instead it says, as described above, to only every engage in a war as a nation in order to protect its people. The reason Quran mentions Jihad in many verses is to inculcate a nature in military folks to be humane on the battle field if they had to go into one. Instead of being silent about a necessity of life, i.e. to engage in war when need be, the Quran mentions it on many occasions reminding the people that it should not be for self-interests but rather for the protection. As the Prophet said, "Do not look forward to fight (in a battle), but if it happened, then know that Paradise lays under the shade of the sword." This clearly shows to Muslims and all humanity that they should not be war-mongers and should try to avoid a conflict as much as possible seeking peaceful means to resove military conflicts. But it acknowledges that there are at times tyrants who listen to no encouragement toward kindness or justice, and for such occasions where there is no alternative but to face them on a battlefield, the Prophet strengthened their resolve to be courageous on the battle field for the sake of a just and humane cause.

Are the suicide bomb attacks on civillians in normal streets Jihad?
This - i.e. suicide bomb attacks on civillians in normal streets - is not what Jihad is. What is worse about this mistaken claim and concept of Jihad is that these killings are done in a Muslim country and some of the people targetted and killed are Muslims. Had the people who do this been religious Muslims doing for religion, then surely all Muslims agree Jihad is not against their own country and people - perhaps then this is NOT driven by religious Muslims for religion but rather by power brokers for the sake of power whatever their religion may be. These bombings are not Jihad, rather they are a misrepresentation of Islam and the simple concept of Jihad that otherwise all humans accept to be their own right for protection! Many Muslims feel that these attacks are not even the doing of Muslims but rather of mercenaries who do it for money and power with little care of religion or piety.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by NullVoid

 

13- Non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims and must comply to Sharia (pay Zizzya: poll tax) if they are to remain safe.

Yes

They are forbidden to marry Muslim women

Yes, the same to Muslim man

, publicly display wine or pork

You can, but dont mix it with other halal/kosher stuff. Almost all supermarket carry wine and pork, but in separate section.

, or openly celebrate their religious holidays or funerals. They are forbidden from building new churches or building them higher than mosques, recite their own religious scriptures

Who says so ? Feel free to worship satan or whatever you like. Muslims dont really care about it. Where I live we even have nationwide holiday/observe for Deepavali, yet its an Islamic country Few years ago we almost combine Eidul and Deepavali, 2 different religion and totally opposite, yet all goes fine.

. They may not enter a mosque without permission.

Depends, are you clean enough ? Islam have its hygiene standards - practiced. Sometime, even a Muslim cant enter mosque, subject to his/her cleanliness.

A non-Muslim is no longer protected if he commits adultery with a Muslim woman

No, both commit sins. The non Muslim is free to leave and correct his/her wrong doings in his/her own belief, the Muslim ones surely have to accept his/her punishment. Punishment varies, Please refer to the country fatwa.

or if he leads a Muslim away from Islam.

The Muslim is murtad, possible death penalty, the luring person I believe does not have any punishment at all.

A non-Muslim is no longer protected if he commits adultery with a Muslim woman

Yes, both commit sins but the non-Muslim wont be punish, the Muslim ones surely have to accept his/her punishment. Punishment varies, Please refer to the country fatwa.

1- Jihad defined as “to war against all non-Muslims to establish the religion” is the duty of every Muslim and Muslim head of state (Caliph). Muslim Caliphs who refuse jihad are in violation of Sharia and unfit to rule.

My wife is a teacher, Islam view it as a jihad. Clearly the definition is wrong. The correct one is "to strive". Caliph should/must enforce Syariah or unfit to rule - Yes.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out,..."

So, they drove us out ? We shall kill these guys. You would do the same I guess after being drove out. Notice where you miss the words ?

Just like gangs, only way out is to die unless you can make a deal with the government and get a new life somewhere else. Unlike the western nations, you're just dead.

Yes, murtad (out from Islam) you dead

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Yes, if you against/attack me - fine, you against/attack my religion (by war), you pay. Same stuff in other religion. USA attack Saudis because of Osama - OK, USA attack Saudis because of Islam, I'll sign up. Same goes to you if Muslim attack Vatican because of Christian.
Think crusader war, there, even I'll sign up. Got it ?
Simple example - USA attacking Afghanistan/Iraq is not really considered religion war. Nobody make a fuss about it. But when that guy draw Mohammad cartoon, notice what Muslim respond ?, entire Muslim world sprang up. Its considered an attack even though its just cartoon. The other one is really a war, yet we merely "War is no good".
Notice the difference ? Get the differences correct first before you Gotcha.

This is why you do not see Muslim/Islamic war. If you want to see Muslim/Islamic war, simply declare it "against Islam", you will get what you afraid of.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Next

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

The context of this verse itself will clear any negative perceptions against Islam. One cannot quote verse 5:33 without quoting verse 5:32 (prohibition of murder) and verse 5:34 (command to forgive). Let us examine the verse in its proper context:

5:32-34 ...If any one slew a person - unless it be as punishment for murder or for spreading corruption in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

There are several points to note here. The first is the gravity of the offense. This is punishment for WAGING WAR and spreading evil and destruction. In modern terminology this would be considered “terrorism”. This is a punishment for such a severe offense, hence the severity of the punishment. As Muhammad Asad writes on this verse:

The present participle la-musrifun indicates their “continuously committing excesses” (i.e., crimes), and is best rendered as “they go on committing” them. In view of the preceding passages, these “excesses” obviously refer to crimes of violence and, in particular, to the ruthless killing of human beings. (Asad, The Message of the Qur’an)

It is quite shocking to see how many bashers of Islam will place this verse under the heading of “inciting Muslims to kill and wage war”, whereas the verse commands nothing of this sort! In fact, it comes directly after a verse prohibiting murder and likening the unjust murder of a single individual to the slaughter of humanity. The Qur’an purposefully describes the gravity of the sin before describing the punishment. The crime of murder and committing terrorist activities is regarded as such a severe violation in Islam, that a severe retribution has been prescribed. Waging war against God’s prophet is tantamount to waging war against Our Creator Himself. It is ironic that Islam-haters will present this verse to justify their claim that Islam supports terrorism, whereas Muslim scholars have always presented this verse as proof that Islam is vehemently opposed to terrorism.

Originally posted by XxForgottenLegendxX

The Jizya verse is verse 9:29. Jizya means defense tax and it applies to Jews and Christians under Muslim rule.

Non-Muslim citizens are permitted to practice their faith

Where is this freedom of religion you talk about?

• Iran: Protestant Pastor Sentenced to Six Years

www.iranhumanrights.org...

• Iran: Pastor to Hang for Apostasy in Iran

www.worthynews.com...

• Iran: Christians jailed for three months over evangelizing activities

www.asianews.it...:-Christians-jailed-for-three-months-over-evangelizing-activities-20290.html

• Libya: Life in prison for glorifying Gaddafi or insulting Islam

www.asianews.it...

• Algerian Christians to appeal conviction for worshipping

au.christiantoday.com...

• Indonesia: Alex Aan faces jail for posting 'God doesn't exist' on Facebook

www.guardian.co.uk...

• Indonesia: Indonesian Province Bans Catholics from Celebrating Christmas

www.asianews.it...

• Indonesia: American on Trial for Insulting Islam

www.thejakartaglobe.com...


• Jordan: Islamists Criticize "Propagation of Buddhism" in Jordan

en.ammonnews.net...

• Kuwait: Kuwait death penalty law for blasphemy

www.gulf-times.com...

• Pakistan: Pakistan evangelist set on fire by Muslim extremists

theundergroundsite.com...

• Pakistan: Christian Parents Serve 25 Years in Prison for Touching Quran...

www.pakistanchristianpost.com...

• Pakistan: Cleric Affirms Death Penalty for Insulting Islam.

expressbuzz.com...