A Christian re-examining Christianity

Originally posted by jheated5
I had a dog that seemed to know the difference between good and bad, heck he even had emotions! So someone who loves their dog does not receive love from that animal back? or if you beat a dog does he not look at you as being bad?

Yes i have no doubt they have emotions and a soul... but what they see as good and bad isn't always true according to us...

A dog sees eating his own feces as a good thing... in their mind it keeps the den clean... I had a dog that would regularly partake in snacking in the cat box

If you beat a dog he will fear you... not a good thing in any case...

unfortunatly i also know this from experience, before i actually knew how to train a dog... a former friend of mine gave me this idea... One of the few things i regret in this life, but at least i learned from it... I will never make that mistake again as long as i live..

reply to post by Lionhearte

I'd say you have the same odds of the Constitution being fabricated, abused, and misinterpreted.

Interesting comparison.

Now find me the equivalent for Jesus... Thanks.

I think we can agree up to a point as to the way we interpret these actions differ among people, I don't believe as you suggested though it's a man made creation. The thought process is what brought it about so I think as long as there were intelligent creatures alive good and evil existed..... Without life itself there would be no such thing....

reply to post by Lionhearte

Free will. We're full of sin, because we're born into it. You didn't infect them with anything. The proper analogy would be like this - you had two lab rats, who you were training and told them not to bite into some infected cheese. They did anyways, now them and all their descendants are "infected" with this disease. Now them and all their offspring, you offered a cure.

All they had to do was take it. And they didn't.

Whose fault is that? Yours? These rats are dying, but they won't let you touch them. And all this time, they mock you and spit in your face and blame you for their suffering, when you could soooo easily cure them.

You could, of course, FORCE the cure upon them - just like God could - but that would be in violation of Free Will, and that would make God.. not-God.

Well, you could just not infect the rats. So yes, it's your fault. If I infect rats knowing they will pass on a virus I am responsible for the consequences.

You can't have it both ways, either god is the alpha, the omega, all knowing that is spread from the beginning to end... or he is a 10 year old down syndrome kid who accidentally got access to life creating omnipotence.

It's one or the other. You can't have it both ways. Either he/she/it is all knowing, therefore having the answer by their design, or it's a "kind-sorta-god" that didn't know what would happen, therefore giving us free will.

Destiny or no destiny. One or the other. Free will does not meld well with an omnipotent ruler. It actually makes no sense whatsoever.

reply to post by Lionhearte

People in 500 B.C. took the liberty of including a citation page whenever they wrote something? That's funny.

Thucydides did, pretty much, yeah....

I guess it's not that funny then, eh?

Thucydides (English pronunciation: /θuˈsɪdɪˌdiz/; Greek: Θουκυδίδης, Thoukydídēs; c. 460 BC – c. 395 BC) was a Greek historian and author from Alimos. His History of the Peloponnesian War recounts the 5th century BC war between Sparta and Athens to the year 411 BC.

Thucydides has been dubbed the father of "scientific history", because of his strict standards of evidence-gathering and analysis in terms of cause and effect without reference to intervention by the gods, as outlined in his introduction to his work.[1]

Link

Here are some of his works:

Thucydides, 455? BC-395 BC

Θουκιδίδης
Wikipedia
The History of the Peloponnesian War (English) (as Author)
The History of the Peloponnesian War (English) (as Author)
Πελοποννησιακός Πόλεμος, Τόμος δεύτερος (Greek) (as Author)
Πελοποννησιακός Πόλεμος, Τόμος πρώτος (Greek) (as Author)
Πελοποννησιακός Πόλεμος, Τόμος τέταρτος (Greek) (as Author)
Πελοποννησιακός Πόλεμος, Τόμος τρίτος (Greek) (as Author)

You can access them here.

Now where is that first hand account of Jesus again? Ah... And for shame, Thucydides lived long before his time. Had he of been there, perhaps he could have documented his existence.

reply to post by jheated5

I do want to believe but from a logical standpoint I can't wrap my brain around these illogical concepts. So far all of the answers I've heard from believers were just sidestepping the questions and I never really found an answer. Respect the fact that we are individuals and my thinking process differs from your own, so don't throw judgement on me because I don't for religious people... I would appreciate an honest and logical answer to this question myself....

Jheated5,
I was a big time atheist back in the day and then got schooled in a debate by a Christian Philosopher. The thing was, that he didnt come at me as a "Christian" but as an "experiencer of God". Granted to say with this position it was impossible to completely defeat his stance so eventually I was lead to Agnosticism.

From there I approached the Bible (well the NT anyway) as a spiritual scientist. There was too much in the OT that I didn't agree with and didnt make sense even when explained by theologians and I rather would never get the answers for some things until seeing God in an afterlife. So I stuck to the NT cause once Jesus came he changed everything. He simplified it all and was like "Here's how it works."

Better yet, I took Jesus words alone as the sole teachings and kind of skipped over what Paul was saying, my whole reasoning being, that if he is who he says he is, that what he says trumps pretty much everything else. While "everything else" does goes hand in hand to what he's saying, at least in the NT, it is actually quite simple.

Paraphrased its basically Love. Love others, Love God, don't discriminate, don't judge, don't worry, repent for your old stupid ways (which for me has always been "if I only knew then, what I know now), accept Jesus as basically a Spiritual advisor, friend, teacher, savior, and the show'er of how to escape this "matrix type world." As a benefit, you eventually experience direct spiritual realities, graces, etc all of which help you to walk in a spiritual way and be a beacon of light in the world. Also its about ego death and killing off selfishness. Its so simple a child or a moron or a slow person can comprehend.

Everything else, like alot of the OT, I dont and can't mess with and I dont agree with alot of it. When Jesus came he changed things around. Also there is alot of references to Enlightenment in the NT if you can read past the symbolism. So i tested all this out and started practicing what Jesus taught, and ultimately thrust upon me where a vast array of spiritual experiences including a kind of ego death after getting baptized. All of that had verified for me that God is real, that what Jesus taught was real. that he real was here, and now its like im operating on 80% of my mind whereas before was maybe like 2-3%, I have access to alot of intuition, conscience, transcendent faculties which I never had as an atheist/agnostic, and so forth. It's definitely the way to go and I wish everyone can be a Christian and have these direct experiences. I wouldnt trade them for all the $ woman, power in the world.

But alas, what keeps people from Christ is the exact same things that kept me from Christ originally. Im still a work in progress & have good/bad days. Here's the thing. I used to be an Atheist/Agnostic and now am a Christian and its definitely a huge upgrade in life, especially the direct experiences. I can never go back to anything else.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by dominicus

 

You are correct sir... S&F

OT God(s) are not the same as the one Jesus spoke of...

He spoke of a merciful, Just and Loving God... None of which you can see in the maniacal, Jellous, envious, raving lunitic you read about in the OT...

Don't be decieved by silly christians that try to say all or nothing... its not one book...

They are not one and the same God

And the bible isn't Gods word... though it can be found within

Gods word came from his son... Not from the OT, aside from the 10 commandments

There are only hints of the true God within the OT

edit on 5-5-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Thank GOD someone said it... lol, I was just about to rant about that very comment. It's all or nothing, HAHAHAHA.. I think that was overkill with the HAHA's but... yeah, I'm still laughing.

It's not possible! Every last word, is the very words in which were originally intended to be in their by God, man changed nothing!... NOT!

We're on the brink of quantum computing yet we still have regressives that cling to iron age, supersticious woo. Sadly, no matter the logic, reason, fact or evidence they're presented with, these individuals will continue to take an old fairy tale book at face value.

Hmmm, shall we choose proven scientific studies or contradictory tales written by ignorant sheep herders?

It is near impossible for some of these fanatics to shake off years of indoctrination. These people WANT to believe. Plus, they are afraid of mythical punishments and too greedy for divine rewards to stop doing so.

Keep believing your woowoo and keep being fleeced by the mega churches.

With the availability of information nowadays, there is no excuse to continue willingly drowning in ignorance.

By the way, devil's gonna getcha. Wooo!

reply to post by Snoopy1978


I think the real question, is where are all the divine messengers nowadays? Did god say to himself, "once computers are invented the people don't need my guidance"...

Seriously.

Is that it? We get some age old prophets a couple thousand years ago and god just has a long nap...

Where is modern Jesus?

Originally posted by boncho
Seriously. Is that it? We get some age old prophets a couple thousand years ago and god just has a long nap...

"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Amos 3:7

I know, just leaves you with ANOTHER question: Did God stop doing things... Answer is a big NO...

Originally posted by boncho
I think the real question, is where are all the divine messengers nowadays?"...

Here's the thing: prophets have NEVER been real popular for obvious reasons which is why you can't just switch the TV to the "prophet" channel for the latest forecast. You know the drill, TPTB and control of the media blah, blah etc.

Here are just a few examples of TRUE Prophets:

Nita Johnson:
"The angel of the Lord told me “in the days ahead if you are not a
New World man you better be saved as you will not survive.”

Dr David Owuor “Time is over”

Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj:
“Days of captivity are appointed for this nation, and he is the
man who will carry it out. (Obama) ”

“Earthquakes have been appointed by the decree
of the watchers”

Neville Johnson: “…Jesus said, NO MORE DELAYS ARE POSSIBLE”

Here is just ONE example of a recent Prophet's warning that came to pass:


John 6:28 "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

reply to post by Murgatroid


Slapchop

Harold Camping.

I don't see a difference.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Interesting you say that... yet many argue that paul still made animal sacrifices...

Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of purification, until the offering was offered for every one of them” (Acts 21:26).

It doesn't say Paul did the offering but that it was offered for them. In this chapter he went to the church in Jerusalem and they arrested him for teaching the jews to ignore the laws of Moses and be one with the gentile people. Apparently there was a schism growing between the church of Jerusalem and the church of Antioch. The jewish christians in Jerusalem were still following the law of Moses and apparently they ignored Peter's vision on the roof of Simon the Tanner's house.

The debate between old covenant and new covenant has been going on for 2000 years to this day. You have the SDA's who advocate the old law and the others who advocate saved by grace through faith in Yeshua and keeping his law as opposed to the law of Moses.

reply to post by boncho


You're putting words in his mouth,

He never said God infected them with anything,

He said God told them not to eat the infected cheese, and they disregarded Him, therefore infecting themselves,

There's a big difference.

reply to post by boncho


Gods got messengers all around you,

Are you paying attention to them?

Or disregarding, as they did to the OT prophets and Jesus Himself?

Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by boncho

 

You're putting words in his mouth,

He never said God infected them with anything,

He said God told them not to eat the infected cheese, and they disregarded Him, therefore infecting themselves,

There's a big difference.

No. Because either god created or didn't create. And either he is all knowing or a know-nothing. So he knew the outcome he decided to make the human race.

You can't cherry pick your context to justify creation. This is either something that is or isn't. And in this case, christianity is saying it's a certain way, which by default makes god responsible. (You can't have an all knowing god who didn't know the answer)

In other words, it's a rigged game... And a very fitting analogy.

reply to post by dominicus

Don't get me wrong, I'm still all about Jesus and see him as the Neo of this Matrix world we live in who basically gives us a formula for leaving this damned world. But overall the OT, sin, human attributes given to the OT God don't really make alot of sense and the answers I've gotten about this from Theologians and Books and such, are your run of the mill "best answers they can think of" type. What say you about this folks?

The answer is this: "You must be born again." Consult the link in my signature. Read the article on water and spirit. Baptism and all other bible symbols are keys to the root meaning of what is taking place in history. Baptism is the immersion of the temple (Body) into the material world as the sacrifice of the beast. We are to overcome four baptisms. Consult the first article in the list from my signature. What is the beast?

Carbon has 6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons. The beast is described by 18 traits (3 sets of 6) in 2 Timothy 3. This was noted in another thread on ATS.

Timothy 3 : 2-4 : “For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents (6), unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control (6), brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God” (6).

The main trait of a beast is selfishness. The root of this nature we possess is pride against God. The sacrifice of the animal is only a symbol for what we do in the water of baptism. The water puts out the fire and cleanses the temple after the sacrifice is made. We are conditioned by the symbols to then see deeper into the inner meaning of what the symbols represent.

We are to overcome the beast and sacrifice our desires for our devotion to God. We do this to gain our life back in proper context to truth. Currently, we are locked in a state that is out of context with God's design for us. Rumi the Sufi has an amazing take on this wilderness we occupy.

“O God,” they cry again, “we were in such a
terrible state when, with all sincerity, we called
upon you from our prison corner. For a hundred
prayers you granted our requests. Now, freed of
the prison, we are still as much in need. Bring us
out of this world of darkness into that world of
the prophets, the world of light. Why can freedom
not come without prisons and pain? A thousand
desires fill us, both good and deceitful, and the
conflict of these phantoms brings a thousand tortures
that leave us weary. Where is that sure faith
that burns up all phantoms?”

God answers, “The seeker of pleasure in you is
your enemy and My enemy.

‘Do not take your enemy
and My enemy for a friend.’
When your pleasure-seeking self is imprisoned,
filled with trouble and pain, then your freedom
arrives and gathers strength. A thousand times
you have proved that freedom comes to you out
of toothache, headache and fear. Why then are
you chained to bodily comfort? Why are you
always occupied with tending the flesh? Do not
forget the end of that thread: unravel those bodily
passions till you have attained your eternal passion,
and find freedom from the prison of darkness.”

We can never do this alone. Christ is the way, the truth and the life. The veil was torn 2000 years ago. We are just now seeing into the symbols behind the veil.

reply to post by boncho


reply to post by boncho


Jesus will be back, give Him time, you'll meet Him one way or another,

Isaiah 6:9-12
And He said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And He answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

Matthew 23:29-36
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the Prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the Prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the Prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you PROPHETS, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the Earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the Temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the Grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Acts 2:16-18
But this is that which was spoken by the Prophet Joel (Joel 2:28-29); And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy ..


Be patient, Be patient,

the LORD is coming,

Every knee shall bow,

Every tongue shall confess,

Amen

reply to post by boncho


Lamentations 3:37 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?

38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

reply to post by boncho

They are all around you, all over the world.

They are in this forum.

reply to post by Iason321

I have to ask.....don't you have any words, or sentences of your own? You would think; in one who says he is all wise and all knowing, as you claim to be, complete with Military background, that you would have a good grasp on the English language and composition? Things we learned in school?
Posting quotes from the Bible does not make you look smart, it rather makes you look like a copy and paste man. Please, let's hear YOUR reasoning and logic as to why you should be believed.